Introducing the Scrub.

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    Bowdownbe4me
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Bowdownbe4me on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:30 pm

    jaythibodeau wrote:Some of the time, such as with this Spear argument, I see people saying too quickly that I should just find a counter to it. What I was trying to do, was discuss its strengths and why it having so little flaws made it cheap. It's all nice and dandy to discuss how to stop a Spear, but there's nothing wrong with discussing its strength over the other weapons. If it's not as good as I make it out to be, prove me wrong then. That's the exact reason I'm even arguing about it here anyways big grin. Discussing it is a way for me to validate my view of the weapon. For all I know, I could be wrong. But I won't know that until someone proves me wrong. Neither will the person complaining about something being cheap. If you don't think that certain tactic is unfair, prove why.
    Everything is "fair game" in a game (meaning that it's ok to use it), since it's, well, you know, in the game. But does that make it a balanced part of the game that everyone should just "deal with"?
    Nope.
    I respect the idea of setting rules for the sake of evening out the battlefield, but my feeling is that people all too often would rather see a rule in place than to learn the counter to the tactics which give them trouble.

    I honestly and truly was once of the same mindset: "spears are op because they can flip poke ad infinitum." But as I found from taking part in the GameFaqs Tournament, there *are* actually hard counters to most of the supposedly "cheap" tactics.

    Even TWoP + dead-angled WotG has a relatively easy counter: If you're caught in the TWoP, hold block, unlock, and turn to face the opposite direction that your opponent faces when he/she casts WotG. This can easily be done on reaction, and supposing you are using (or quickswapped to) a decent magic resist shield, there shouldn't be a problem.

    (That's just an example of something that most people find cheap).

    In the GameFaqs tournament, it was explicitly an "anything goes" affair, and I would honestly say that the person who won out in the end was the person who knew most about the intricacies of the game mechanics. He and I had practiced extensively beforehand to learn how to handle what would inevitably be thrown at us.

    Regardless, each community is different and draws a different crowd. But my point isn't that you shouldn't set these rules, as the folks in one's community tend to be like-minded and if you would want to ban certain tactics, then most they would
    likely agree to some extent. But rather, my point is that in the end, if you choose to ban these tactics or continue to assume they have no real counter, then you *are* limiting your potential. (Depending on the community mentality, that may not matter in the slightest).

    ---
    And I really can't help myself, but as for the spear vs rapier:

    The reason the rapier has great potential against a spear user is because when two turtles face each other, neither has any reason to wail into the others' shield. Supposing the rapier user turtles any time he/she is anywhere near the range of the spear user, then the spear user can do *nothing* to damage the rapier user (and the same applies in reverse). This means that the spear's range becomes insignificant, as no matter how well the spear user maintains their distance from the rapier user, they have no play to make which can cause any damage from that distance. (This whole time the rapier user is turtling). From here the spear user has no option but to change tactics and either use another tactic entirely (magic, pyro, different weapon) or move in for the backstab (or a mixture of the two). If they fish: counter fish has the upper hand. If they pyro: BK shield nullifies it, and if you want, stack 61 poise and poise bs any pyro that they can throw at you. If they try spear pokes: 1. They're not being very smart because they're committing to an attack which has no chance of dealing damage, and 2. you can bait this behavior and poise bs or roll bs.

    You're totally right though, if you want to beat a skilled spear user it will become an exercise in patience. But once you get them to realize that max distance pokes are entirely worthless against your turtling, you are forcing them into using other tactics which can be punished.

    And your argument that spear users can do the same thing: somewhat true, but: 1. spear pokes can be roll bs punished, and 2. when it comes down to whose bs is going to win the match, it makes a hell of a difference having that crit bonus.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:32 pm

    First off, thank you forum for the read. This was as enjoyable to me as a certain backstab thread that circulated for several weeks a couple months ago. Bow

    If I may chime in one more time, there's a point of view I think we're overlooking as a collective. To demonstrate it, I'd like to bring up a hypothetical glitch.

    Glitch: Auto-headshots

    Application: Equipping green blossom, swapping to throwing knives as you're consuming, zoom while you're consuming, firing=instant head shot.

    Counters/repercussions: Blocking nullifies the effect. Using the Force miracle at the correct time, would allow for the arrow to be deflected AND resulting in a corresponding headshot.

    Now before anyone gets into the, "Sounds good" "That would suck" "Sounds balanced" "Sounds stupid"...

    ...what is the real problem with this? It just feels broke. I use this as an example to avoid personal feelings about anything currently existing in game.

    Sometimes, the op argument is unintentionally initiated merely through the opinion of "what feels broke". Sometimes the discussion leads to, "Well, you can counter this and that and yada yada yada and to infinity and beyond!"...sorry.

    I'm just saying sometimes the inherent "perfectionist" and "dreamer" in some of us is commonly mistaken for being over-critical, when in fact thats not the intention at all.

    Something that feels broke to me is dead angles. I dont complain about most of them, and dont think they should be removed. As a matter of fact, some of them make sense and feel right fa sho...

    ...maybe I shoulda just said that instead of writing another wall of text. Oh well, I must be imperfect, like all of us, and yes, like Dark Souls. Maybe thats not such a bad thing. After all, its not the Cannon of Beauty itself that is what attracts us, but the slight variations from it. That is what mankind has considered magnificently beautiful...all always will.

    So thank you FROM for being so damn not perfect.

    peace out, maaal

    PS-thanks again forum. Bow
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    jaythibodeau
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:50 pm

    I felt that my post this time was a tad bit long, so I put it into spoilers. big grin

    @Bowdownbe4me
    Spoiler:

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    I respect the idea of setting rules for the sake of evening out the battlefield, but my feeling is that people all too often would rather see a rule in place than to learn the counter to the tactics which give them trouble.


    That's certainly true.


    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    I honestly and truly was once of the same mindset: "spears are op because they can flip poke ad infinitum." But as I found from taking part in the GameFaqs Tournament, there *are* actually hard counters to most of the supposedly "cheap" tactics.


    Yes, while that's definitely true, I only barely agree with one example of a counter that you have said. Even then, most weapons have plenty of counters. Although nearly everything has a counter, everything should at least have some variety in which to counter it. I personally think that having 1 or 2 counters just doesn't cut it when talking about Dark Souls PvP. What you're saying though definitely applies to most "cheap" PvP tactics/weapons. I can pretty much agree with that.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    Even TWoP + dead-angled WotG has a relatively easy counter: If you're caught in the TWoP, hold block, unlock, and turn to face the opposite direction that your opponent faces when he/she casts WotG. This can easily be done on reaction, and supposing you are using (or quickswapped to) a decent magic resist shield, there shouldn't be a problem.

    (That's just an example of something that most people find cheap).


    Yep. I can agree with that.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    In the GameFaqs tournament, it was explicitly an "anything goes" affair, and I would honestly say that the person who won out in the end was the person who knew most about the intricacies of the game mechanics. He and I had practiced extensively beforehand to learn how to handle what would inevitably be thrown at us.


    Indeed. Having anything go in a fight allows for freedom and highly reduces complaints. However, I'm still going to stand by my point that no matter how much you know the game intricacies, you can't overcome things that the game doesn't exactly let you overcome. Or, at the very least, you'll be going up against unfair advantages. Which in turn, limits the game's overall viable PvP options in some cases.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    Regardless, each community is different and draws a different crowd. But my point isn't that you shouldn't set these rules, as the folks in one's community tend to be like-minded and if you would want to ban certain tactics, then most they would likely agree to some extent. But rather, my point is that in the end, if you choose to ban these tactics or continue to assume they have no real counter, then you *are* limiting your potential. (Depending on the community mentality, that may not matter in the slightest).


    Yes, but I think that bans should only really be with the extreme cases. With the extreme cases, I'd rather have one tactic/weapon banned, than have quite a few non-viable tactics/weapons. I can see what you mean by limiting the potential, but, the way I see it, it's going to be limited either way. I'd rather take the path that limits it the least. Or at least, makes it closer to being balanced. I can certainly see where you are coming from though.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    And I really can't help myself, but as for the spear vs rapier:

    The reason the rapier has great potential against a spear user is because when two turtles face each other, neither has any reason to wail into the others' shield. Supposing the rapier user turtles any time he/she is anywhere near the range of the spear user, then the spear user can do *nothing* to damage the rapier user (and the same applies in reverse). This means that the spear's range becomes insignificant, as no matter how well the spear user maintains their distance from the rapier user, they have no play to make which can cause any damage from that distance. (This whole time the rapier user is turtling). From here the spear user has no option but to change tactics and either use another tactic entirely (magic, pyro, different weapon) or move in for the backstab (or a mixture of the two). If they fish: counter fish has the upper hand. If they pyro: BK shield nullifies it, and if you want, stack 61 poise and poise bs any pyro that they can throw at you. If they try spear pokes: 1. They're not being very smart because they're committing to an attack which has no chance of dealing damage, and 2. you can bait this behavior and poise bs or roll bs.

    You're totally right though, if you want to beat a skilled spear user it will become an exercise in patience. But once you get them to realize that max distance pokes are entirely worthless against your turtling, you are forcing them into using other tactics which can be punished.


    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    And your argument that spear users can do the same thing: somewhat true, but: 1. spear pokes can be roll bs punished, and 2. when it comes down to whose bs is going to win the match, it makes a hell of a difference having that crit bonus.

    Although I'd argue that you could just chip damage, I see what you mean. silly

    However, that's only barely one tactic that can be used against a Spear user. While everything else has at least multiple ways to beat it. Although the Spear isn't unstoppable by any means, no weapon should have this little amount of options to take it down. Thus, the reason why this isn't a balanced PvP game. And why it shouldn't necessarily be treated as a legitimate one by itself. Although, it can be treated that way, such as having no rules, it isn't.

    @Animaaal
    Spoiler:

    Excellent point. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Half of the time, I see arguments about some counters to be a little bit pointless. Let's say that someone is facing a turtle, you could just say that he should running R1 spam him. Sure, that might work, but there's another way to look at it. Since the turtle is facing someone trying to running R1 spam him, you could just tell him to BS him.
    Now, that's where I see no point to this. This cycle can just go on forever, while hardly proving much.

    While, it'd be nice to have a perfectly balanced PvP game. I think that it's also nice to have some imperfect ones. It makes situations such as these a whole lot more interesting in some cases. big grin


    Last edited by jaythibodeau on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:07 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:06 pm

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    jaythibodeau wrote:Some of the time, such as with this Spear argument, I see people saying too quickly that I should just find a counter to it. What I was trying to do, was discuss its strengths and why it having so little flaws made it cheap. It's all nice and dandy to discuss how to stop a Spear, but there's nothing wrong with discussing its strength over the other weapons. If it's not as good as I make it out to be, prove me wrong then. That's the exact reason I'm even arguing about it here anyways big grin. Discussing it is a way for me to validate my view of the weapon. For all I know, I could be wrong. But I won't know that until someone proves me wrong. Neither will the person complaining about something being cheap. If you don't think that certain tactic is unfair, prove why.
    Everything is "fair game" in a game (meaning that it's ok to use it), since it's, well, you know, in the game. But does that make it a balanced part of the game that everyone should just "deal with"?
    Nope.
    I respect the idea of setting rules for the sake of evening out the battlefield, but my feeling is that people all too often would rather see a rule in place than to learn the counter to the tactics which give them trouble.

    I honestly and truly was once of the same mindset: "spears are op because they can flip poke ad infinitum." But as I found from taking part in the GameFaqs Tournament, there *are* actually hard counters to most of the supposedly "cheap" tactics.

    Even TWoP + dead-angled WotG has a relatively easy counter: If you're caught in the TWoP, hold block, unlock, and turn to face the opposite direction that your opponent faces when he/she casts WotG. This can easily be done on reaction, and supposing you are using (or quickswapped to) a decent magic resist shield, there shouldn't be a problem.

    (That's just an example of something that most people find cheap).

    In the GameFaqs tournament, it was explicitly an "anything goes" affair, and I would honestly say that the person who won out in the end was the person who knew most about the intricacies of the game mechanics. He and I had practiced extensively beforehand to learn how to handle what would inevitably be thrown at us.

    Regardless, each community is different and draws a different crowd. But my point isn't that you shouldn't set these rules, as the folks in one's community tend to be like-minded and if you would want to ban certain tactics, then most they would
    likely agree to some extent. But rather, my point is that in the end, if you choose to ban these tactics or continue to assume they have no real counter, then you *are* limiting your potential. (Depending on the community mentality, that may not matter in the slightest).

    ---
    And I really can't help myself, but as for the spear vs rapier:

    The reason the rapier has great potential against a spear user is because when two turtles face each other, neither has any reason to wail into the others' shield. Supposing the rapier user turtles any time he/she is anywhere near the range of the spear user, then the spear user can do *nothing* to damage the rapier user (and the same applies in reverse). This means that the spear's range becomes insignificant, as no matter how well the spear user maintains their distance from the rapier user, they have no play to make which can cause any damage from that distance. (This whole time the rapier user is turtling). From here the spear user has no option but to change tactics and either use another tactic entirely (magic, pyro, different weapon) or move in for the backstab (or a mixture of the two). If they fish: counter fish has the upper hand. If they pyro: BK shield nullifies it, and if you want, stack 61 poise and poise bs any pyro that they can throw at you. If they try spear pokes: 1. They're not being very smart because they're committing to an attack which has no chance of dealing damage, and 2. you can bait this behavior and poise bs or roll bs.

    You're totally right though, if you want to beat a skilled spear user it will become an exercise in patience. But once you get them to realize that max distance pokes are entirely worthless against your turtling, you are forcing them into using other tactics which can be punished.

    And your argument that spear users can do the same thing: somewhat true, but: 1. spear pokes can be roll bs punished, and 2. when it comes down to whose bs is going to win the match, it makes a hell of a difference having that crit bonus.
    The moon light butterfly horn and dragon slayer spear dissagree. They chip well and eat stamina to block, respectively.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Jansports on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:02 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:The moon light butterfly horn and dragon slayer spear dissagree. They chip well and eat stamina to block, respectively.

    You beat me to it.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:19 pm

    If people want to attach morals to the meta, the least they can do is meta properly.

    Spears are the better overall weapons. Not unbeatable at all, but they are almost as fast, much longer, stronger and plow stamina if the opponent turtles, and they do so from outside parry range.

    The rapier has the running r1, which isn't enough to win a trade as the spear will also land 2, higher damage attacks in the same space, and the rapier has crits, which require the rapier user to be close, which implies an error on the part of the spear user, not a weapon fualt.

    Just in case people wanted an explination.


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