Introducing the Scrub.

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    Saturday-Saint
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:41 pm

    ADirtySlate wrote:I don't know why you bring up Street Fighter II, since the author only mentions the series as a whole when talking about an example

    1. Sirlin specifically references SF2 many, many times throughout the book. Not sure if he does in the Scrub chapter, though.
    2. This book was written several years before SF4 came out.
    3. SF4 is far extraordinarily balanced compared to its predecessors.
    4. Nobody cares about random online match statistics. Tournament play is what matters when it comes to balance.

    E.G. in Sirlin's own game, Yomi, a character named Master Midori is (tentatively) receiving a buff in the upcoming expansion. This is because he is considered by experienced players to be extremely weak, and performs poorly within tournaments. Incidentally, Midori performs very well on the ladder. In all the balance discussions, I don't think this was ever mentioned, because it doesn't really matter.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by ADirtySlate on Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:54 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    ADirtySlate wrote:I don't know why you bring up Street Fighter II, since the author only mentions the series as a whole when talking about an example

    1. Sirlin specifically references SF2 many, many times throughout the book. Not sure if he does in the Scrub chapter, though.
    2. This book was written several years before SF4 came out.
    3. SF4 is far extraordinarily balanced compared to its predecessors.
    4. Nobody cares about random online match statistics. Tournament play is what matters when it comes to balance.

    E.G. in Sirlin's own game, Yomi, a character named Master Midori is (tentatively) receiving a buff in the upcoming expansion. This is because he is considered by experienced players to be extremely weak, and performs poorly within tournaments. Incidentally, Midori performs very well on the ladder. In all the balance discussions, I don't think this was ever mentioned, because it doesn't really matter.

    1. He doesn't mention it here, so I don't consider it relevant. If you could tell me where he said this, I think it would help.
    2. I do believe Street Fighter 3 was out then. I saw some tournament play for that game, and I see it as balanced.
    3. Okay then.
    4. ...You're kidding me. Online play is just as important as tournament play when deciding balance. People with experience still play online. You can't just simply throw away a legitimate statistic on the grounds that it is random. 80 and 120 matches is certainly enough to call it well-rounded, and that's only a simplified statistic. It could've been hundreds or thousands of matches played. We don't know. For your example, it only could have been a fluke, and perhaps the people who played Midori could've just been less experienced or trained less than the ones who played other characters. Online play is just as important as tournament play when determining what is and isn't balanced. The tournaments could have just been a fluke just like the online matches could have been a fluke, but considering online matches are much more numerous than tournament play, I'm willing to bet that the online matches are less susceptible to flukes.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:09 pm

    ADirtySlate wrote:...Alright yes, I was wrong in saying that spears can't be countered all too well...

    No you weren't…not entirely.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:...When facing a flippy spear, there is no better alternative then to turtle behind a decent shield with a rapier. They won't be able to pose you any threat from their preferred range because their weapon has no dead-angle potential. This forces them into a bs fishing competition, where you have the upper hand with a weapon that will out damage their spear bs...

    I like your solution, but we both know it wouldn't work against the person that actually wins our imaginary cash tourney lol. Newer players should listen to your logic as it exemplifies thinking outside the box, which is what is required to beat just about any seasoned player, or to make your build more versatile against your inherent "archbuilds".

    The reason I say it wouldn't beat "that guy", is because you'd still have a huge reach disadvantage. While the "fishing for a bs" theory would work a lot of times, it would only work in cases that became a "pissing match of patience".

    I also see you acknowledge it would be boring, but in a cash tourney, that would probably not apply. If 5K were on the line, and each match had a 30min time limit, patience and range would win the day.


    There is nothing wrong with "playing to win". There is something wrong in saying Dark Souls is balanced enough that no builds would suffer from this logic.

    If there were a pro tourney, the question is not which build would win, but which spear build would win??? The "quality" Demon's Spear???...the dex DSS???...the Partizan perhaps???

    I say the caster spear would win. If it came down to a battle of "poke and run" and chip damage, I'd say HSA has great tracking and HCSM forces your opponent to move. Maybe even chip damage from unlocked CSS.

    Surely at the end of 30min, you'd have aquired enough chip damage to win?

    I'd also say the DSS build that has a Dark Tracer for surprise attacks has a chance, but he'd have to be EXTREMELY smart about it.

    Spears have a clear advantage. Such an advantage that RoFaP is not even necessary for these builds in the hands of a seasoned player. Some of them are opting for Coloranthy or even Leo's instead. Most builds, as we all know, wouldn't even consider (most times) forgoing the RoFaP. That alone should demonstrate how much of an advantage spears have in a "play to win" environment.

    Again, people should have the right to optimize their builds and play how they want.

    They should not however, imo, say that Dark Souls is balanced enough to experience a large variety of build selections with this mentality.

    Are spears beatable? Yes. Are they op'd? Yes.

    If you want to play to win, make a spear build.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:21 pm

    Flukes have nothing to do with it, the issue is expert play (tournaments) vs. any random person play (online/ladder matches). Any good competitive game balances around expert play.

    As for him mentioning SF2, random example would be the chapter "What Should Be Banned?" where he mentions Akuma and I think some other characters from ST that warranted bans.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by ADirtySlate on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:26 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Flukes have nothing to do with it, the issue is expert play (tournaments) vs. any random person play (online/ladder matches). Any good competitive game balances around expert play.

    As for him mentioning SF2, random example would be the chapter "What Should Be Banned?" where he mentions Akuma and I think some other characters from ST that warranted bans.

    As far as I know, tournaments are not very restrictive based on skill. Anyone can join, so it's really online play where everyone is in the same place.

    Also, I do see that Akuma should be banned. When looking at his win/loss in Turbo, he sure seemed OP. However, in the same chart, the lowest on the list, Zangief, still beat Akuma once.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:29 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:...Flukes have nothing to do with it...

    Are you talking to me? I'm sorry Saint, I don't know what that means...if it is directed at me.

    Saturday-Saint wrote:...Any good competitive game balances around expert play...

    I can see the logic, but only in a "final match" or "last tier" point of view.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Dutchy on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:35 pm

    Spoiler:
    Derailing from the current argument. I like to winge a lot on the forum (As some probably know) I talk about Dark Magic, spears, Miracles, Weapons, shields, tactics, bows etc. As being OP on a regular basis. But that's usually the end of it. I sit back and go, well, it's in the game, so there's no point whinging. But the way I see it, PTW focuses on the mindset of players. I was once called a scrub simply for calling something OP. Now, I use a shotel, Greatbows. These have been called OP before. Do I think they are OP? Nope. Do the people I call out think their tactic is OP? Nope. (Well with some exceptions) Then how do we discern what is OP? Someone else hit the nail on the head. Consensus. Within these forums, we convene to try and make a fair game out of Dark Souls. Maybe that's just how people are, to want things balanced. The devout PTW groupies make up the minority, and so I understand why they come off as grudging. I would honestly understand the PTW mentality, and maybe even try it for a time, if it's representatives didn't come off as such elitists. I understand that being called "Elitist" comes with a negative connotation, and you might argue that it is hypocritical. I think the main difference between A scrub and an elitist, and this is supported by PTW, is that Elitist will force their views onto others. We "Scrubs" do this as well (through the banning and disliking of certain tactics) But this does not mean we inhibit another's Gameplay. We simply think of it as being OP. Linking back to the consensus, if enough people think this way. It will be banned from TOURNEY PvP. It may be looked down upon outside of tourney's, but scrubs do not down right discredit elitist thinking. But from the elitist mentality, I am not experiencing the full game. This is a baseless argument; Every one experiences the full game, it's the experience and lack/gain of self justice we get from it. Just because I don't Dark Bead spam others to death, does not mean that I am not experiencing the full game, nor does it mean that the people who don't cut through people's shields with a shotel like I do aren't experiencing the whole game.Saturday, you come off as a bit too brash for my liking.

    And that's my two cents ^_^

    Sorry if that comes off as a bit disjointed, It's 1:00 AM and I am so rather tired


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:46 pm

    (Ignore the stupid term I'm going to attempt to make, it just makes this a whole lot easier for me to explain my point silly)

    To go along with the point about "cheap" weapons such as Spears, I honestly think that the problem with them is that there is no "true" counter to them. A true counter is something that is specifically designed to stop something else. It could be something such as a long range weapon, an armor piece, a tactic, whatever.

    For example, Great Magic Barrier is a true counter since it is specifically designed to stop magic. The rings that add defense to either magic defense, fire defense and lightning defense are true counters too, since they're meant to block something specific. Arguably, I could say that Bows are true counters to different play styles, since they can easily deal decent damage from afar (Such as facing a Greataxe user), or, at the very least, deal with different situations that other weapons might have problems dealing with.

    However, something like having high poise would simply just be considered a counter, since it generally helps with everything, but sometimes not to the extent of a true counter. My opinion is that the more "cheap" tactics don't necessarily have any true counters to them, or at least, there are less counters available to use against them. The Spear, stops Bow users since they can poke and still have decent range. But, Spears are also extremely effective in close range too. So, what are you supposed to do to stop them? By using a counter, such as backstabbing, since generally every weapon can do that. But, the Spear user can do that back to you too.
    If the Spear user follows the same guidelines that other players are told when trying to "counter" Spear users, the Spear has a good advantage. Such as stacking poise or roll-stabbing along with using a Spear. The fight pretty much devolves into whoever is more skillful at "cheap" tactics.

    My point is, that there is nothing that completely (or at least, viably) negates the supposed "cheap" tactics. Sure, poise and roll-stabbing can help the situation, but it doesn't stop the Spear. Even then, the Spear user can have it too.

    (Warning, this example is by no means meant to be perfectly balanced. It's merely to show my point. silly)
    Let's say for example, that the devs added Flails to the game. Flails, can outrange Spears and break their guard if they're poking, no matter what. That would practically mean that poking wouldn't be very viable against a Flail. However, Flails wouldn't hardly do any poise damage, and they would have a terrible stagger if the player misses. Also, their whole moveset focuses on mid range fighting anyways.
    Essentially, something close range could easily beat the crap out of a Flail since the Flail isn't very good for short range.
    Neither of those two weapons would have a good standing against all weapons, such as how the Spear is now. Since, the Spear would have a true counter to it finally, with the Flails true counter being close range combat, since I'm also going to add that they can't BS.

    Another thing, could be that since Spear users also have access to these counters, that it basically just comes down to how unprepared or unskilled they are compared to their opponent. When both players have stacked poise and can roll-stab, that pretty much negates those. Even then, those don't stop Spears.

    If the Spear's true counter is something that a Spear user can't have while using a Spear, that's part of what could also make it a true counter (if it's effective against the Spear, anyways).

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    ...When facing a flippy spear, there is no better alternative then to turtle behind a decent shield with a rapier. They won't be able to pose you any threat from their preferred range because their weapon has no dead-angle potential. This forces them into a bs fishing competition, where you have the upper hand with a weapon that will out damage their spear bs...
    While you would definitely have the upperhand in a BSing competition, you'd have no chance to BS against someone of equal skill. The Spear out ranges the Rapier, thus eliminating the need to go into the Rapier's range. The Rapier is basically just a short Spear, with nothing over the Spear other than something that the Spear can viably defend against.
    Animaaal wrote:
    There is nothing wrong with "playing to win". There is something wrong in saying Dark Souls is balanced enough that no builds would suffer from this logic.
    Pretty much this exactly. While there are all these counters and whatnot, you can't possibly have access to all of them due to limitations.

    Dutchy wrote:
    Spoiler:

    Derailing from the current argument. I like to winge a lot on the forum (As some probably know) I talk about Dark Magic, spears, Miracles, Weapons, shields, tactics, bows etc. As being OP on a regular basis. But that's usually the end of it. I sit back and go, well, it's in the game, so there's no point whinging. But the way I see it, PTW focuses on the mindset of players. I was once called a scrub simply for calling something OP. Now, I use a shotel, Greatbows. These have been called OP before. Do I think they are OP? Nope. Do the people I call out think their tactic is OP? Nope. (Well with some exceptions) Then how do we discern what is OP? Someone else hit the nail on the head. Consensus. Within these forums, we convene to try and make a fair game out of Dark Souls. Maybe that's just how people are, to want things balanced. The devout PTW groupies make up the minority, and so I understand why they come off as grudging. I would honestly understand the PTW mentality, and maybe even try it for a time, if it's representatives didn't come off as such elitists. I understand that being called "Elitist" comes with a negative connotation, and you might argue that it is hypocritical. I think the main difference between A scrub and an elitist, and this is supported by PTW, is that Elitist will force their views onto others. We "Scrubs" do this as well (through the banning and disliking of certain tactics) But this does not mean we inhibit another's Gameplay. We simply think of it as being OP. Linking back to the consensus, if enough people think this way. It will be banned from TOURNEY PvP. It may be looked down upon outside of tourney's, but scrubs do not down right discredit elitist thinking. But from the elitist mentality, I am not experiencing the full game. This is a baseless argument; Every one experiences the full game, it's the experience and lack/gain of self justice we get from it. Just because I don't Dark Bead spam others to death, does not mean that I am not experiencing the full game, nor does it mean that the people who don't cut through people's shields with a shotel like I do aren't experiencing the whole game.Saturday, you come off as a bit too brash for my liking.

    And that's my two cents ^_^

    I might be nitpicking when I say this, but having more people complain about something does not equal it being OP.
    Realistically, they would usually be right. But, what if their opinions are wrong? Is it really OP?



    To sum up my entire thing, we're trying to make Dark Souls into something it's not. A balanced PvP game. Hence why the player-made rules exist. Dark Souls CAN be a competitive game, but it is not by itself. At least, not a balanced one.

    Eh, maybe I'm just rambling. Since I seem to be extremely redundant with my posts.
    Shrug


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Bowdownbe4me on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:44 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    ADirtySlate wrote:...Alright yes, I was wrong in saying that spears can't be countered all too well...

    No you weren't…not entirely.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:...When facing a flippy spear, there is no better alternative then to turtle behind a decent shield with a rapier. They won't be able to pose you any threat from their preferred range because their weapon has no dead-angle potential. This forces them into a bs fishing competition, where you have the upper hand with a weapon that will out damage their spear bs...

    I like your solution, but we both know it wouldn't work against the person that actually wins our imaginary cash tourney lol. Newer players should listen to your logic as it exemplifies thinking outside the box, which is what is required to beat just about any seasoned player, or to make your build more versatile against your inherent "archbuilds".

    The reason I say it wouldn't beat "that guy", is because you'd still have a huge reach disadvantage. While the "fishing for a bs" theory would work a lot of times, it would only work in cases that became a "pissing match of patience".

    I also see you acknowledge it would be boring, but in a cash tourney, that would probably not apply. If 5K were on the line, and each match had a 30min time limit, patience and range would win the day.


    There is nothing wrong with "playing to win". There is something wrong in saying Dark Souls is balanced enough that no builds would suffer from this logic.

    If there were a pro tourney, the question is not which build would win, but which spear build would win??? The "quality" Demon's Spear???...the dex DSS???...the Partizan perhaps???

    I say the caster spear would win. If it came down to a battle of "poke and run" and chip damage, I'd say HSA has great tracking and HCSM forces your opponent to move. Maybe even chip damage from unlocked CSS.

    Surely at the end of 30min, you'd have aquired enough chip damage to win?

    I'd also say the DSS build that has a Dark Tracer for surprise attacks has a chance, but he'd have to be EXTREMELY smart about it.

    Spears have a clear advantage. Such an advantage that RoFaP is not even necessary for these builds in the hands of a seasoned player. Some of them are opting for Coloranthy or even Leo's instead. Most builds, as we all know, wouldn't even consider (most times) forgoing the RoFaP. That alone should demonstrate how much of an advantage spears have in a "play to win" environment.

    Again, people should have the right to optimize their builds and play how they want.

    They should not however, imo, say that Dark Souls is balanced enough to experience a large variety of build selections with this mentality.

    Are spears beatable? Yes. Are they op'd? Yes.

    If you want to play to win, make a spear build.
    Well thought out and well written. I appreciate your input.

    I still would argue that the rapier play wins out, only because it becomes entirely worthless for either player (spear or rapier) to wail into the other's shield, so it becomes about the bs. Range becomes irrelevant due to the inability to deal damage. (If dead angles were possible that would be a different story, but thankfully that's not possible for spears).

    The thing is: spear pokes from behind a shield, while seemingly safe, are slow enough that they can get roll bs'd or easily poise bs'd. Hell, even rapier pokes can get poise bs'd on reaction (even the ones that are non-shield pokes!). But by bringing these two players to the same "game of patience," the rapier user is at an advantage entirely due to the crit damage bonus.

    That's not to say that a flippy spear isn't the bane of nearly any build in DkS. It is! A strength build, no matter how well played, will lose to a skilled flippy spear user. It's just that this particular playstyle (rapier turtle) shuts down their major benefit (range) and forces them onto a playing field which becomes about punishes. And the nice thing is that this is an option available to 99% of the builds out there.
    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    ...When facing a flippy
    spear, there is no better alternative then to turtle behind a decent
    shield with a rapier. They won't be able to pose you any threat from
    their preferred range because their weapon has no dead-angle potential.
    This forces them into a bs fishing competition, where you have the upper
    hand with a weapon that will out damage their spear bs...
    While
    you would definitely have the upperhand in a BSing competition, you'd
    have no chance to BS against someone of equal skill. The Spear out
    ranges the Rapier, thus eliminating the need to go into the Rapier's
    range. The Rapier is basically just a short Spear, with nothing over the
    Spear other than something that the Spear can viably defend
    against.
    I disagree on this point. A rapier user who has a *good* shield (most often the Black Knight Shield) can nullify any distance poke by a spear user simply by sitting there and patiently turtling. By playing this way, the spear user has no alternative but to get close, either to land a combust/black flame or to bs fish (and if the rapier user is using the BK Shield, a combust/black flame is also useless). If the spear user takes the bait and fishes, the rapier user can counter fish (which, as it happens, there is a strategy to counter fishing which gives the counter-fisher the upper hand over the fisher). If the spear user instead decides to also play it patiently and "safely" by poking into the rapier user's shield, the rapier user can use the "quick run" trick to punish the spear user with a poise bs, or roll bs because spear+shield pokes are slow.

    (The "quick run" trick: while locked on, hold B -or whatever it is on PS3- and strafe in either direction. The moment you want to run, you push forward and you will already be in a running animation. This is a great tactic for unleashing quick running attacks, or getting surprise bs's).

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by User1 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:47 pm

    B 'twould be O.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:12 pm

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:...Well thought out and well written. I appreciate your input...

    Thank you Bow

    Like I said I like your solution as well.

    As to the rest....

    I'm not sure if I acknowleded you are correct in your math (which I should've). However, that is assuming you land the backstab. I don't think I mentioned that. In which case you'd be absolutely correct.

    I look forward to future reads from you.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:07 pm

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    I disagree on this point. A rapier user who has a *good* shield (most often the Black Knight Shield) can nullify any distance poke by a spear user simply by sitting there and patiently turtling. By playing this way, the spear user has no alternative but to get close, either to land a combust/black flame or to bs fish (and if the rapier user is using the BK Shield, a combust/black flame is also useless). If the spear user takes the bait and fishes, the rapier user can counter fish (which, as it happens, there is a strategy to counter fishing which gives the counter-fisher the upper hand over the fisher). If the spear user instead decides to also play it patiently and "safely" by poking into the rapier user's shield, the rapier user can use the "quick run" trick to punish the spear user with a poise bs, or roll bs because spear+shield pokes are slow.
    I still disagree with that. Even though the poke is somewhat *slow* in comparison, it would still be decently effective against someone trying to take him down with running attacks (as far as I'm aware of, you can even land counters on running attacks). Keep in mind, the Spear user probably has a good shield too.
    My opinion is that although the poke is slow, the distance you can use it from makes up for that. Besides, can't the Spear user just poise BS or roll BS you too? While you're trying to barrage his shield, it would be a matter of timing and enough poise to tank a hit to get that BS.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that so long as a Spear user keeps his distance, plays it safe with a good shield, they're gonna be pretty hard to kill. Even then, my point was somewhat proven with what you were saying. Look at how much effort and skill is needed to just take down a *good* Spear user. And that was just with a Rapier. What about the other weapon classes? Would only a select few be able to pull this off? I personally think that the Spear is considered OP because of this. Since there are so few viable options with which to kill them.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:10 pm

    A little thing I felt I should bring up that while it may not work in some areas, using the environment you can deal with spear users better. Similar to how bows can be ridiculously powerful, if you bring the fight to an area with close quarters combat being the only option the spear become much less effective than it would otherwise be. This of course only works in areas where you can bring an enemy to such a spot and most "Arenas" are more wide open, but if you are in the actual Arena there are generally pillars you can use for this effect. Never forget the environment you fight in.

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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:19 pm

    @Tolvo

    Good point. The Kiln was always my favorite for 1 vs 1.

    Regarding rapier vs spears.

    The backstab arguement is valid IF the rapier bs is landed. If its not, I completely see where jay is coming from.

    However on a side note, the rapier also loses the "parry battle".

    If we could parry the tips of spears, then the problem wouldn't exist to begin with. Imo, thats really the only problem with spears atm.
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:23 pm

    Spears are outraged by poison daggers and dung pies....
    Dead angles....
    Kicks....
    Lots of options to spoil their plan(hide behind a shield all day)
    If they are a 2h spear then you have other options.

    Some builds will always have an advantage over certain builds, that's just the way life goes.


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    User1
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by User1 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:25 pm

    Hide behind a Plank Shield all day, and be able to do it well.
    THEN, I shall have respect for you, turtlers. silly
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    Bowdownbe4me
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Bowdownbe4me on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:29 pm

    jaythibodeau wrote:
    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    I disagree on this point. A rapier user who has a *good* shield (most often the Black Knight Shield) can nullify any distance poke by a spear user simply by sitting there and patiently turtling. By playing this way, the spear user has no alternative but to get close, either to land a combust/black flame or to bs fish (and if the rapier user is using the BK Shield, a combust/black flame is also useless). If the spear user takes the bait and fishes, the rapier user can counter fish (which, as it happens, there is a strategy to counter fishing which gives the counter-fisher the upper hand over the fisher). If the spear user instead decides to also play it patiently and "safely" by poking into the rapier user's shield, the rapier user can use the "quick run" trick to punish the spear user with a poise bs, or roll bs because spear+shield pokes are slow.
    I still disagree with that. Even though the poke is somewhat *slow* in comparison, it would still be decently effective against someone trying to take him down with running attacks (as far as I'm aware of, you can even land counters on running attacks). Keep in mind, the Spear user probably has a good shield too.
    My opinion is that although the poke is slow, the distance you can use it from makes up for that. Besides, can't the Spear user just poise BS or roll BS you too? While you're trying to barrage his shield, it would be a matter of timing and enough poise to tank a hit to get that BS.

    Basically, what I'm saying is that so long as a Spear user keeps his distance, plays it safe with a good shield, they're gonna be pretty hard to kill. Even then, my point was somewhat proven with what you were saying. Look at how much effort and skill is needed to just take down a *good* Spear user. And that was just with a Rapier. What about the other weapon classes? Would only a select few be able to pull this off? I personally think that the Spear is considered OP because of this. Since there are so few viable options with which to kill them.
    But what I'm getting at is that the rapier turtle does *not* attack the spear user. They wait and punish. If they stay within the spear users range, but keep their shield up at all times, the best hope the spear user has is to go for chip damage (which, supposing you maintained proper distance, you could then poise bs), or they default to a bs fishing game, which, when you know the proper counter fishing tactics (I'm still learning them myself), you can turn their bs fish into a bs on them without the risk of bs cancels.

    The only reason a rapier is superior to bringing out a spear when facing a spear user is that it's turtle attack is too fast to be roll bs'd, and when it comes to a bs fishing competition, the rapier will win in terms of damage output. (Hitting your opponent for 900 dmg versus 600 dmg can mean the difference between them getting back up again... or not).

    But you are absolutely right if you want to define cheap as "restricting playstyles." It has it's counters, but unlike most tactics, the selection of counters is rather slim. I can certainly understand why some people take issue to this, because not everyone wants to play the turtle vs turtle mind-games. And some of us would much prefer that we can use our regular build in a certain manner to handle these folks, which is not the case. (Well, the "build" can easily be the same, but the equipment and playstyle almost definitely needs to change).
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    Maneater_Mildred
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:30 pm

    RenegadeCop wrote:Hide behind a Plank Shield all day, and be able to do it well.
    THEN, I shall have respect for you, turtlers. silly
    lol I hope your not suggesting my Mildred is a turtle. tongue


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:32 pm

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:Spears are outraged by poison daggers and dung pies....
    good point
    Dead angles....
    Uuuum...out ranged? Mura maybe, depending on lag.
    Kicks....
    ???
    Lots of options to spoil their plan(hide behind a shield all day)
    If they are a 2h spear then you have other options.

    Some builds will always have an advantage over certain builds, that's just the way life goes.

    I think its more about "pro spears" or PTW spears. Those guys/gals dont lose to other builds.

    But like you said thats just the way life goes. I'm not upset about it. I'm not screaming op either (even though op means over-powered NOT unbeatable, which they are). I'm just sayin, how many people would use a spear in a cash tourney???...lots....whole lots....
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:38 pm

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:Spears are outraged by poison daggers and dung pies....
    Dead angles....
    Kicks....
    Lots of options to spoil their plan(hide behind a shield all day)
    If they are a 2h spear then you have other options.

    Some builds will always have an advantage over certain builds, that's just the way life goes.
    I disagree. Spear users can use that stuff too (I don't know if Spears dead angle can though). If there are lots of options to spoil their plan, where are they? I haven't seen any yet.

    Yes, certain builds will indeed have advantages over other builds. However, I'm talking about all of them. If that's the way life goes, I can safely say that this isn't a balanced PvP game the way it is.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:41 pm

    Spears like the SKS can dead angle. IIRC, the rolling R1 is a sweep and that can be used to dead angle.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:47 pm

    Sorry if that wasn't clear animal, just the daggers and pies outrange. The others are just options to upset their play style. You could dead angle with a broadsword, roll through a poke and deadangle. Or roll past a poke and kick to break their block. Just saying you have options.

    Edit... @jay. I agree it's not a balanced game PvP wise, but spears do not = instant win.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:54 pm

    Ahhh. I shoulda assumed that.

    And also, true dat girlfriend.

    I usually just run em down and spam magic and win or spam magic and die lol.

    I'm not dueling one person for 10 minutes, unless its for money, or fame, or....
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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by jaythibodeau on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:56 pm

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:
    But what I'm getting at is that the rapier turtle does *not* attack the spear user. They wait and punish. If they stay within the spear users range, but keep their shield up at all times, the best hope the spear user has is to go for chip damage (which, supposing you maintained proper distance, you could then poise bs), or they default to a bs fishing game, which, when you know the proper counter fishing tactics (I'm still learning them myself), you can turn their bs fish into a bs on them without the risk of bs cancels.

    The only reason a rapier is superior to bringing out a spear when facing a spear user is that it's turtle attack is too fast to be roll bs'd, and when it comes to a bs fishing competition, the rapier will win in terms of damage output. (Hitting your opponent for 900 dmg versus 600 dmg can mean the difference between them getting back up again... or not).

    But you are absolutely right if you want to define cheap as "restricting playstyles." It has it's counters, but unlike most tactics, the selection of counters is rather slim. I can certainly understand why some people take issue to this, because not everyone wants to play the turtle vs turtle mind-games. And some of us would much prefer that we can use our regular build in a certain manner to handle these folks, which is not the case. (Well, the "build" can easily be the same, but the equipment and playstyle almost definitely needs to change).
    Yes, it's like with what Animaaal said. The Rapier would win close-combat. But that's if it can even get close. Even then, that's what having a secondary slot is for. There's nothing stopping a Spear user from simply using something else too. Let's say he had a Spear for nearly everything and a Rapier for close range.
    What would you do?
    It would come down to a contest of, "Whoever is the best BS fisher wins" practically. Honestly, if a single weapons class changes play styles this drastically, I'd say that something is obviously wrong here with it. Thus, why it needs to not be used.
    Maneater_Mildred wrote:
    I agree it's not a balanced game PvP wise, but spears do not = instant win.
    I never said that Spears equal an instant win. Merely that they have a clear advantage.


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    Re: Introducing the Scrub.

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:06 pm

    I do not think spears are anywhere near as dominant as people in this thread are making them out to be. Their damage is quite low, their BS's are ***. They have no safe defensive dead angles. You can just hold L1 and walk in their face for free. Then go for roll BS's if all they're doing is shieldpoking. If they're 2H R1 spamming, use running attacks. Bait out their rolls and punish them if you can.


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