Things I miss about PvP here

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:45 pm

    Forum :pirat: wrote:Thats absurd. Everybody is frustrated by something. If everything irritating was banned, new things would become the most common and effective and people would be irradiated by that before long.

    Its the mentality of the people who leave thats the problem. People have every right to use the best gear available to their build, and use whatever build they wish so long as it meets the SL requirements.

    The very second gear, any gear, is banned I refuse to take part.

    That made me lol the whole time I read it dude.
    I'm sure we can work something out twisted
    You're a reasonable guy... Shrug

    I'd love to hear your reasons for having ruleless fightclubs.

    For instance, "Who the cares?" If there's 50 people/members agreeing to the rules, why the eff not?

    Also, I think the better question is why don't we progress the meta...shape the meta...improve it with rules?
    Are we saying we cannot improve upon this simple video game's mechanic system because of our feable minds lol? :mask-sack:
    I think we can.

    Also adding:
    -No WoG dead angles
    -And not other stuff I cant think of.
    -Oh, and sl 150, yeah…its time imo.

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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:14 pm

    I hear you. I would love to have a regular group of people that hook up often, with a weekly larger group. I tried to set up a fight club: "No Holds Barred" with almost no rules. But, it never took off sadly.

    If one gets set up with minimal rules, more freedom, then I'll show up. I'm on almost every night.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:32 pm

    Meta is the game in its pure form. Artificial rules infringe on it, limit its eveloution.

    Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

    In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions.

    Now we all know the CSS machine gun would be neigh unstoppable if allowed (see: Akuma) sa a ban is justified. Giants zweihander flipping and dead angle wog are nowhere near that tier and have trade offs or counters, involve risk. (not that one can enforce the dead angle wog rule anymore than one could enforce a no greatscythe dead angle rule. It would have to be no wog and no greatscythe.)


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:45 pm

    The point is once you make a list like that, the mindset becomes "what's another rule gonna hurt?". 50 people will not agree to every single rule. It's untenable. That list is exhausting for now. The meta moves faster than the players. In one week, something else will be pushed, something new will become "broken". People self nerf to the point of boredom. Plus half that list is entirely a subjective assessment, and if I'm allowing myself to break neutrality at the present moment, half of that list is not even arguably detrimental to pvp.

    I'm not saying everyone should go in there chainstabbing ftw. But honestly, many won't do that at this point. Informal unspoken rules go a long way. Secondly, it's a fight club. Don't feel like fighting a certain setup for the night? Ask the host for an arranged match.

    There are plenty of examples of low to no rules setups working, look no further than twitch. Ask our own Rosie how her ruleless fightclubs go. Top notch people gathering, pushing the limits of the game and having fun doing so. At this point in the meta scrubby loadout is scrubby. People are creative. They are looking beyond the trite at this point.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Jansports on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:48 pm

    Reasons for ruleless fightclubs

    1. Fight clubs are fun

    2. The game comes pre packaged with a set of rules, lookey I found the rules.

    3. Anything you think is "cheap" "OP" or "Unfair" I have not only played against but have beaten. I have beaten spears and shields, I have beaten poke rollers, I dodge dark magic all day I don't get caught by WoG I don't let morons with hornets and no real fighting ring get behind me I pivot parry I toggle I min max my armor and it looks ugly and mish mashed and Yeah I'm wearing the duck crown I'm flipping with MLBH TCC and Velka's I got 7 attunment slots worth of Bead and WoG you best be ready son.


    In all honesty rules only limit options, we should expand player options as much as possible, allow everything, people will either learn to stop eating WoG Sammiches or leave and be forever scrub, play to improve, you can't get any better against a guy with a spear if you just ban spears
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:55 pm

    "No wog deadangle" means if sombody deadangle's themselves I'm at fualt. Even if its "No intentional wog deadangles" Wether or not sombody deadangled themself or I intentionaly deadangled them could be incredibly difficult to determine correctly. This contains the potential for both parties and the judge to all leave justifiably upset, and so such an ambiguous rule should be avoided. "No WoG' is incredibly unfair to faith builds, and not having to deal with it teaches newer or intermediate players bad habits because they're not taught to avoid or anticipate it so they fail to recognise "safe" moves are vulnerable to a wog punish.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:05 pm

    Anyway, I've kind of derailed this thread into a discussion about rules. Bottom line is, I am all for a revival of a Fight Club, and the guiding hand that the admin team will play will be to make sure the focus is on education and not restriction.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:09 pm

    I will join. When I have the time. :|


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Sneezer on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:41 pm

    Rules really aren't a big problem so long as you ignore the "good idea train," just have a few set generally agreed upon rules (a fight club I was a part of had two simple rules, no backstabbing, and no "full hollow" tactics.")

    Rules only become a problem if you allow them to be, know when to tell someone off for whining without alienating them, stick to the original rule set for as long as you can without adding any on a whim, and just keep it simple; the simpler it is, the less problems and bellyaching you'll run into.

    When it comes to organizing this, it doesn't have to be super formal, just maybe set up a sticky thread for those interested, add PSN IDs, and invite them to the fight club chat. People in the room at the same time could simply go at it whenever the felt like it, and as said earlier; a weekly organized session could be set.
    Personally, I would love for this to be a thing.
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Jansports on Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:55 pm

    WTF are "Full Hollow" tactics?

    that's the vaguest rule
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Sneezer on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:02 am

    You ever been in the Forest?
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:02 am

    Emergence wrote:Anyway, I've kind of derailed this thread into a discussion about rules. Bottom line is, I am all for a revival of a Fight Club, and the guiding hand that the admin team will play will be to make sure the focus is on education and not restriction.

    Nah, you haven't derailed it. My theory is this: like it or not, spells and weapons were put into the game for a reason so why should they be limited? They aren't if you are fighting in the forest. Anything intended for the game be the developers should be fair game. I like fighting twop once in a while. I would hope it wouldn't become a twop fest, but why limit that or the stone great sword? Glitches were NOT meant to be in the game and should not be allowed for PvP. Maybe I am a hypocrite to some extent for saying that because I openly promoted duping mule builds via the bb glitch which I used (and gave freely to others) to no end. I justified that as a quick way to make builds (as did many others here) and felt that was healthy for the pvp community to get more people top tier builds quickly. Making quick builds is one thing, but openly glitching the game in active pvp is something entirely different and I have never promoted that.

    The bottom line is this: we just need to get back to a central place and chat and start duking it out again. Drop the debates, check you pride and egos at the door and take up good sportsmanship the way we used to.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:04 am

    I would too, I'm simply arguing for simple, clear and minimal rules.

    Personally, I'd go Sl 100, no item healing, spell swapping, or weapon moveset glitching. (ie swinging a zweihander like a dagger, unless there's another really obscene glitch I'm forgetting)

    Specific restrictions (like no chain stabbing) can be negotiated on a match by match basis, if people so desire, but it should be done in a separate chat on event days, to avoid clutter.

    Just my thoughts.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:18 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:I would too, I'm simply arguing for simple, clear and minimal rules.

    Personally, I'd go Sl 100, no item healing, spell swapping, or weapon moveset glitching. (ie swinging a zweihander like a dagger, unless there's another really obscene glitch I'm forgetting)

    Specific restrictions (like no chain stabbing) can be negotiated on a match by match basis, if people so desire, but it should be done in a separate chat on event days, to avoid clutter.

    Just my thoughts.

    I agree with everything you just stated. That should be the mindset going forward. happy


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:27 am

    I'm making 2 ammendments

    1) The extra rules are not enforced by the host (in the case of a phantom vs phantom duel.) You're on your honor and will settle it privatly (as in via PM.)

    2) A denial takes precedence. If rules are not agreed on by the time both players are summoned, the basic rules are the only rules.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:28 am

    I think Arty's arena is the best place to duel, hand's down. At SL 100, it should be easy to get to.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:30 am

    Not everyone has the DLC..............


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:34 am

    This probably won't be read, so just skip to the bottom...


    Forum Pirate wrote:........Meta is the game in its pure form. Artificial rules infringe on it, limit its eveloution........not that one can enforce the dead angle wog.......

    Rules can also enhance it. Rules do not by default limit evolution. As amatter of fact, one could argue rules enhance evolution. ie, most primal urge: hunger. Rule is you eat you live. Call my relation artifical if you want, but I could see it spawning evolution none-the-less.

    WoG dead angles could be semi-regulated. Its pretty obvious when someone is intentionally trying to pull if off imo. Accidents happen, but there's no reason it couldn't be an "unwritten rule" like some of you ellude to.

    Emergence wrote:...That list is exhausting for now. The meta moves faster than the players...

    I believe some of the items i listed to be exhausted now because of their constant mention throughout the threads in the same regard. We all know what most people think is a little ridiculous and could use some tweaking...we've heard them a million times. ie no damn chainstabs lol.

    Also, I believe that to be slowing down with Dark Souls 2. There's not much to discover anymore and the meta will progress slowly, if at all anymore imo.

    Emergence wrote:...Ask our own Rosie how her ruleless fightclubs go. Top notch people gathering, pushing the limits of the game and having fun doing so. At this point in the meta scrubby loadout is scrubby. People are creative. They are looking beyond the trite at this point....

    I would personally avoid those like the plague. No offense, its just not my style.

    I'm tired of the mask builds. I'm tired of the CoD. I'm just tired of some things. Imo, thats the reason people are so bored with these fight club ideas, they're tired of seeing the same ol' same ol' tactics.

    Jansports wrote:........Anything you think is "cheap" "OP" or "Unfair" I have not only played against but have beaten...........you can't get any better against a guy with a spear if you just ban spears

    I'm sorry, I didn't mean anything less either. I've master most techniques, I've played against some of the best players, I have zero problem playing against any technique. I came from the Demon's Souls fight clubs.

    I appreciate your advice. It is invaluable words of wisdom to players just starting out.

    I'm simply bored, I feel we can improve the experience, and have seen it all, been there done that. I'm simply hoping for something ambitious and exciting to happen. And no, not a "no shield" fight club or even a "no ele weps" fight club, not that those couldn't turn out cool as well.

    I simply want the best case scenario, and imo, it is not here yet.

    Sneezer wrote:Rules really aren't a big problem so long as you ignore the "good idea train," just have a few set generally agreed upon rules (a fight club I was a part of had two simple rules, no backstabbing, and no "full hollow" tactics.")

    Rules only become a problem if you allow them to be, know when to tell someone off for whining without alienating them, stick to the original rule set for as long as you can without adding any on a whim, and just keep it simple; the simpler it is, the less problems and bellyaching you'll run into.

    When it comes to organizing this, it doesn't have to be super formal, just maybe set up a sticky thread for those interested, add PSN IDs, and invite them to the fight club chat. People in the room at the same time could simply go at it whenever the felt like it, and as said earlier; a weekly organized session could be set.
    Personally, I would love for this to be a thing.

    I am in almost full agreement.

    The Once-Ler wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:I would too, I'm simply arguing for simple, clear and minimal rules.

    Personally, I'd go Sl 100, no item healing, spell swapping, or weapon moveset glitching. (ie swinging a zweihander like a dagger, unless there's another really obscene glitch I'm forgetting)

    Specific restrictions (like no chain stabbing) can be negotiated on a match by match basis, if people so desire, but it should be done in a separate chat on event days, to avoid clutter.

    Just my thoughts.

    I agree with everything you just stated. That should be the mindset going forward. happy

    Well that is a shame imo. I think the best fight clubs would be the ones with the best rule set, something difficult to understand, and designed to put a higher number of builds on a level playing field because of the human imangination and reasoning.

    In end, I wish you guys well on your journey. I'll prolly be going random in the forest like usual. Thats were the 2 on 2 fight club you guys are talking about exists anyway for the most part. I know its not the same, but its easily accessible.

    Good luck, I'll just bow out I guess.... sad


    ***This is on topic because I miss the days when people were trying to figure out the perfect fight club before the conversation became...exhusting lol. good luck guys!
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:48 am

    The lack of limits promotes creativity. Sure 6 of the 20 are using the same int build. Next time, 4 other people show up with gmb. So the int builds add pyromancy and pyros are built, so people show with greatshields and VoS, so people show up with dead angle happy weapons like the greatscythe and shun magic, all together, VoS becomes useless because nobody bothers with magic, vos is dropped, int builds again dominate.

    Thats the type of thing that happens (though its an oversimplified example.) If you gimp int builds/pyros though, by removing their primary damage source, you collapse the upward spiral and there is never a need to adapt or change. the game stagnates because there are only 3 builds, people stop playing because they're bored.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:49 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Not everyone has the DLC..............
    Good point.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:58 am

    The point is Animaal, we tried that. Bright and talented people in this forum attempted to "balance" the game. To do what a paid developer could not. Ask Rant and Mildred how easy it was. They were the leaders, and spent every other post responding to a flurry of gripes.

    Also, the context of the word exhaustive in my post is as a synonym for complete. Not for tiring.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:59 am

    I'll also add, Aanimal, that there's nothing stopping you asking me not to use weapon "x" or tactic "y" for our fight. In fact, its likely I'll agree, just for the hell of it. A personal challenge.

    If its a rule though, you limit options and push people away. So long as it is made clear that special rules are available but they're the exception, not the rule, I see nothing stopping scrubs, ruthless types and people just looking for something different from all playing together and enjoying themselves.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by kazumoshi on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:03 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:The lack of limits promotes creativity. Sure 6 of the 20 are using the same int build. Next time, 4 other people show up with gmb. So the int builds add pyromancy and pyros are built, so people show with greatshields and VoS, so people show up with dead angle happy weapons like the greatscythe and shun magic, all together, VoS becomes useless because nobody bothers with magic, vos is dropped, int builds again dominate.

    Thats the type of thing that happens (though its an oversimplified example.) If you gimp int builds/pyros though, by removing their primary damage source, you collapse the upward spiral and there is never a need to adapt or change. the game stagnates because there are only 3 builds, people stop playing because they're bored.

    ^This.
    The beauty of Dark Souls (though even more so in demon souls) was figuring out what countered and did well against what, as well as figuring out how to incorporate your favourite playstyle into every situation. Putting a strainer on your arsenal selection with the hope of weeding out the bad will only tighten the mesh.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:08 am

    I'd also like to add this. The more you know, the more you experience, the more you play, the less cheap things become.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:17 am

    Its not necessarily that he finds them cheap, just that he's tired of dealing with them. (though he may also find them cheap)

    After 2 matches against rapiers (win or lose) I never want to see another rapier again. They're not cheap, I simply tire of chasing the slippery ************ with my dgm.


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