Things I miss about PvP here

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    The Once-Ler
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    Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:26 pm

    So...I have been on a dks hiatus lately and it has given me time to reflect on the state of PvP (as I see it). This is not meant to be a rant or to slight anyone's gaming habits, but rather reflection on things that I miss from pvp a year ago.

    Almost exactly a year ago I was invited here by a friend from another wiki whom I had played Demon's Souls and early DKs with quite a bit. For better or worse, I had organized the duping and muling efforts for the other wiki prior to the dlc and offered to extend the service here before I realized that it was frowned upon on this site (this is a side note as to how I got here). The main draw for me here was not muling efforts or PVE tips, but rather a budding PvP community with a strong core of evening and weekend warriors who had good skill and quick wit in the chat. For months on end all someone had to do was log onto PSN, head down to the well in Blighttown and IT WAS ON! Back then we had one consistant PVP chat that everyone logged into and there were always matches to be had. There were very few hard feelings as most involved were great competitors and good sports. Boy do I miss that well in Blighttown:( I initially thought it was too small and to dark but it really grew on me to duel there.

    I also miss the consistant chat. I recent times the chats change faster than most people change their socks and underwear. Even more recently they have moved outside PSN altogether in favor of internet chats and Skype (not that I don't like the sound of your voices lol) but I really enjoyed the text chats.

    I miss the tournaments the way they were (open to all in pvp) not just this faction or that. I have to say I found the covenant thing interesting at first (when I joined the Lifehunters) but it didn't resonate with me long and sadly I have not been much a part of the Exhiled (though I may give it another shot when I come back to PvP). I did enjoy playing with the group Wyrm had assembled though (Aho, Bunny, Twilight, Persona, Hippieclown, Rifter, and all you others I am forgetting to type).

    Lastly and most importantly, I miss the people (the usuals) that would hang out in the chats and fight with us. I see lots of you still online, (Reim, Wyrm, Rant, Mo, Emergence, etc) but other frequents I miss playing with (GreenGoblin, Tolvo, Roanispe, and loads of others I am also forgetting to type).

    I have enjoyed (less frequently lately than I would like) the 2 S Duels that Rifter has organized.

    So...I guess my question is how do we get back to that old style of PvP while keeping it fresh with old and new (people and groups) alike? I hope sometime we can set up another sticky post dedicated to PvP where people would go to set up Duels or special events open to everyone. As cool as the covenant idea is (and some of the ideas and events have been really unique), I see it as dividing up the PvP community that was just that, a COMMUNITY. That was the initial draw for me and one of the reasons I have stepped back from DkS PvP recently. Now before you covenant leaders blast me (I know you have put alot of work into that) realize that I have no problem with the covenants themselves. I just feel like the community that could all be hanging out playing together has divided up into cliques that sometimes stage events with each other. There could be 3-5 people hanging out in 5 different areas when there could be 15 people all hanging out in the same place duking it out. Just my 2 cents.

    Let me know everyone's thoughts. My hope for this post is to open up the dialogue to see if there is a way to improve the PvP community here. Cheers.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:34 pm

    Great post, I miss the old FC days. sad


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by XachAttack on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:42 pm

    I wasn't around during that time, sadly, but I would definently like to contribute getting things back to that. It sounds like amazing fun, unfortunately I don't have any idea on what to do >_>;;. But, should something happen that I'm able to help with, count me in.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:49 pm

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:Great post, I miss the old FC days. sad

    Good grief how did I miss you? So many names I was trying to drum up but couldn't. I miss FC too and I hope there is a way we can revive it in some fashion.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:50 pm

    Teamspeak or similar channel?, i helped run a few battlefield servers and it was the banter on the channel that brought in a lot of people anyone gave crap we kicked them out, we pretty much split the channel into a main lobby and server 1 & 2, eventually everyone just used the main lobby. a lot of us still meet up a few times a year for a beer or lan party. Although it'd be hard to admin for p2p game.
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:57 pm

    There is a void for sure. Partially due to a general lull as well. We tried to get 2s going and had a little momentum for a bit and I would love for 2v2 to take off. The big forum events have been a success but they are not practical on a nightly basis. The issue really has been participation. There are pockets of folks out there who gather around streams or the wiki livechat but nothing broad like the old fight clubs were. We have discussed how it would be great to get a consistent summit going again.

    Organizing requires leadership to initiate and get the ball rolling and energy to participate. There are tons of tremendous pvp'ers here who would likely participate and benefit.

    Word of caution though and the reason why a lot of things have fallen out of favor:

    Whining.

    Salt is the single biggest enemy of the Dark Souls pvp scene and I have watched entirely too much falling out and hurt feelings as a result. Moaning about X and Y has often reduced the process of organized pvp to a mirthless affair that is incapable of satisfying anyone. People take their chances in the wild or 1v1 with a buddy as a result to minimize the beaurocratic bordedom of debating which things should be banned/restricted/limited/frowned at. I'm not sure where this negativity came from and I may be viewing the past with rose colored lenses, but I remember a distinct lack of griping in the Demon's meta. Perhaps that is what broad appeal does to a franchise. It's easy to move on to a new place when there are lots of others around, whereas in Demon's the community was small and held on to that to preserve the activity.

    The scene needs a culture change before this cynicism carries over into the next game.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:01 pm

    XachAttack wrote:I wasn't around during that time, sadly, but I would definently like to contribute getting things back to that. It sounds like amazing fun, unfortunately I don't have any idea on what to do >_>;;. But, should something happen that I'm able to help with, count me in.

    The way I see it we set up a new fight club and post a sticky at the top of the PvP section, invite everyone to a central chat, recruit new players and old alike, set a fixed soul level cap (I would suggest SL 100 in case we plan to make arena fight nights), and lobby to get as many as possible to jump in on set nights (say Saturday night to start). Every night of the week people were in the chat and having spur of the moment FC, but our set night was Saturday. Most everyone has sl 100 builds now so there shouldn't be much grinding involved with making new builds unless you want them. I hope we cqan make this happen happy


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:08 pm

    The Once-Ler wrote:
    XachAttack wrote:I wasn't around during that time, sadly, but I would definently like to contribute getting things back to that. It sounds like amazing fun, unfortunately I don't have any idea on what to do >_>;;. But, should something happen that I'm able to help with, count me in.

    The way I see it we set up a new fight club and post a sticky at the top of the PvP section, invite everyone to a central chat, recruit new players and old alike, set a fixed soul level cap (I would suggest SL 100 in case we plan to make arena fight nights), and lobby to get as many as possible to jump in on set nights (say Saturday night to start). Every night of the week people were in the chat and having spur of the moment FC, but our set night was Saturday. Most everyone has sl 100 builds now so there shouldn't be much grinding involved with making new builds unless you want them. I hope we cqan make this happen happy

    I would sponsor, support and sticky a thread like that provided one of the charter goals was to focus on education and elevation of techniques, strategies, amd mechanics. An open format free exchange that uncovers taboos and teaches adaptation to vets and rookies alike.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:11 pm

    I was. I was actually at the first FC you showed up at.

    My issue was mostly that more people= more rules and more drama. I don't like rules (unless I set them, even then its iffy) and I hate drama, so it was rarely worth it.

    I prefer the low key series of duels among small groups more common now.

    Everyone is welcome to duel with the Exiled though. You know who and where we are. We have 2 rules: No chainstabs (even though we'll just parry you if you try) and No item healing.

    Mayhap Ahho will try running an arena again, but it didn't get much attention last time.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:14 pm


    Emergence wrote:There is a void for sure.

    Salt is the single biggest enemy of the Dark Souls pvp scene and I have watched entirely too much falling out and hurt feelings as a result. Moaning about X and Y has often reduced the process of organized pvp to a mirthless affair that is incapable of satisfying anyone. People take their chances in the wild or 1v1 with a buddy as a result to minimize the beaurocratic bordedom of debating which things should be banned/restricted/limited/frowned at. I'm not sure where this negativity came from and I may be viewing the past with rose colored lenses, but I remember a distinct lack of griping in the Demon's meta. Perhaps that is what broad appeal does to a franchise. It's easy to move on to a new place when there are lots of others around, whereas in Demon's the community was small and held on to that to preserve the activity.

    The scene needs a culture change before this cynicism carries over into the next game.

    Agreed whole heartedly. happy I also know that most of the people here are are passionate about their builds etc.) I suggest that everyone bury the hatchet (no pun intended) and let byegones be byegones. This is a game afterall and everyone is here to have fun. Let's make it fun again and enjoy good competition as a group, not separate factions. Let's ring this in as a PvP Community again Dammit!


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Jodecho on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:16 pm

    maybe its because i havent been a member of the forum for very long but even though there are alot of fight clubs ran by Covens, they are still open to everyone. Though they should take care to not "steal" the croud from under each other and instead coordinate massive brawls.
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by XachAttack on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:17 pm

    I'm not so sure about the arena. It's pretty hard to find a random guy, more so for a specific person. I think we should just stick with 120's like usual.

    People are probably fed up with the arena by now, I know I am.

    EDIT: Well no, maybe we can do 99-120. Anyone between those levels can connect to eachother so it might work.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:30 pm

    To clarify, I believe, in order to prevent "salt" Emergence is supporting the idea, provided rather than a focus on banning things to promote a misguided sense of fairness, the focus is on determining and teaching counters for things. (WoG, gold tracer, bsing.)

    Not that there would be no rules, but that the rules be minimal and pertaining mainly to things like the former dragon head glitch.

    Correct me if I'm wrong.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by The Once-Ler on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:43 pm

    General rules like "no glitching" are ok. We used to get together and practice counters for all that crud and that was fun as well. The way FC was when I started, anyone that needed/asked for help on tactics had several people volunteer on an off night to teach them. I don't see that as changing. "Whining" as E put it does get annoying. Everyone gets frustrated, but in the beginning when we were having an "off night" we just took a break and came back another night. Complaining to the group or going for chain-bs because someone has your ticket one night isn't cool though and that needs to be avoided. It comes down to Pride and Respect. Don't let pride take over and make you an A-hole and have enough respect for yourself and others in the community to walk away to fight another day if you are having a rough go of it one night. I would go practice against the things that were giving me fits (like roll BS) and then come back and kick some arse (or get arse kicked again lol)!


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:47 pm

    Yes that is right, awful game breaking exploits are always off the table (dragon head/spellswap), but everything else should be approached from a scientific trial and error. The best rules are always informal and adaptable. I'd love to see people linking up to work on things like backstab counters, magic evasion and other more benign things they are having trouble with, and all of this revolvong around a central dueling area to put those concepts into practice. There has to be honesty and admittance of one's limitations without embarrassment from vets and rookies and there has to be a willingess to teach and not be smug from those who have knowledge.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:52 pm

    Even chain bsing is debatable though. I haven't been chainstabed in months (and people have tried) because I can pivot parry (which takes all of 5 minutes to teach). They can instead dead angle wake up, but they risk me dodging out or roll bsing them.

    It might not be fun to deal with, but its also counterable. (though the bser has a big advantage if they have a weapon that can deadangle.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Jodecho on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:54 pm

    whenever this gets sorted out lemme know, im always down for some good ol fashioned, friendly spirited pvp. on a sortof off topic note, most of the exploits that people use ive just recently learned about. maybe i was just ignorant, or i never cared enough to look into to but Spellswaping, stun toggeling (not sure what its called), these are all pretty much forein concepts to me. and unless your talking about the old soul dupe trick with the dragon head i also have no idea what your talking about. i never learned about the BB glitch or duping untill long after it had been patched. sorry for getting off topic :/
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:00 pm

    Jodecho wrote:whenever this gets sorted out lemme know, im always down for some good ol fashioned, friendly spirited pvp. on a sortof off topic note, most of the exploits that people use ive just recently learned about. maybe i was just ignorant, or i never cared enough to look into to but Spellswaping, stun toggeling (not sure what its called), these are all pretty much forein concepts to me. and unless your talking about the old soul dupe trick with the dragon head i also have no idea what your talking about. i never learned about the BB glitch or duping untill long after it had been patched. sorry for getting off topic :/


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:29 pm

    I would do so much PvP and stuff, but I haven't the time. After this summer, I will definitely have loads of spare time to be lazy and be with all of you.


    I also was around in July, but didn't really stay for long, as my father gave back DkS because he had borrowed it from a friend of his. But now we have our own copy! big grin


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by leonardo503 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:52 pm

    Hello everyone, first time posting on this forum big grin

    I really liked the idea, I started playing dark souls about a month ago, so I never participated on a FC but I would be very happy on participating in a organized fight like that.

    I probably won't be of any help, but if there's anything I could do, I would be glad to do it.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:49 pm

    leonardo503 wrote:Hello everyone, first time posting on this forum big grin

    I really liked the idea, I started playing dark souls about a month ago, so I never participated on a FC but I would be very happy on participating in a organized fight like that.

    I probably won't be of any help, but if there's anything I could do, I would be glad to do it.

    First off all welcome bud.

    Secondly, the fight clubs of course thrived after release, one reason being it was new and fresh (even if you played DeS).

    Imo, some of the regular groups disbanned either out of interest and playing another game, or the lack of rules.

    I always noticed that once the BKGA ninja flipping giants armor build showed up and won 4 or 5 times in a row, messages would start scrolling across the chat, "See ya guys later" "I'm calling it a night guys" etcetcetc.

    I think the only way is to extensively explore what should be banned and what shouldn't thereby ensuring the overall agreement that the rules given are fair.
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Emergence on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:15 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    leonardo503 wrote:Hello everyone, first time posting on this forum big grin

    I really liked the idea, I started playing dark souls about a month ago, so I never participated on a FC but I would be very happy on participating in a organized fight like that.

    I probably won't be of any help, but if there's anything I could do, I would be glad to do it.

    First off all welcome bud.

    Secondly, the fight clubs of course thrived after release, one reason being it was new and fresh (even if you played DeS).

    Imo, some of the regular groups disbanned either out of interest and playing another game, or the lack of rules.

    I always noticed that once the BKGA ninja flipping giants armor build showed up and won 4 or 5 times in a row, messages would start scrolling across the chat, "See ya guys later" "I'm calling it a night guys" etcetcetc.

    I think the only way is to extensively explore what should be banned and what shouldn't thereby ensuring the overall agreement that the rules given are fair.

    I'll play devil's advocate and say the issue in that cited example is not lack of rules, but rather intolerance towards a style. It's that "see ya I'm out" mindset that's a part of the problem. Rules are a slippery slope. Once you set precedent, there's no going back.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:30 pm

    Emergence wrote:
    I'll play devil's advocate and say the issue in that cited example is not lack of rules, but rather intolerance towards a style. It's that "see ya I'm out" mindset that's a part of the problem. Rules are a slippery slope. Once you set precedent, there's no going back.

    I can appreciate that point of view. However, the lack of interest when a few certain "some peoples" showed up became apparent. I never really cared, I just liked playing with whoever. It was just hard to watch people argue back and forth about the mom/giants/BKGA-Claymore/flipping build and call it a night. He|| some nights there would be 5 or 6 of those builds.

    Although I was apart of the other wiki FC in Painted World. More towards the first 6 months after release. I can't speak for what the other fights clubs went through.

    I just believe that there are things that should be excluded from fight club environments. Things you can control.
    Such as:
    *These might be drastic for some people

    -No spears
    -No Giants Armor
    -No masks
    -No Washingpole
    -No Gold Tracer
    -No Wolf Ring
    -No Dingy Armor
    -No Balder Side Sword
    -No MLGS
    -No Stone Greatsword
    -No Pursuers
    -No CoD
    -No TWoP
    -No chain backstabs
    -No TCC

    Before you say anything, I am not saying these are things that needto be nerfed.

    How would you feel if you knew the FC group you were in followed these rules and you wouldn't have to face spear all night?

    And btw...I would have loved to include RoFaP...but there is absolutely no way of enforcing that.

    People need structure. Leaders might not, but poeple who tend to follow rather enjoy rules, as long as they are not ridiculous...which a couple of these might be.
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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:56 pm

    Thats absurd. Everybody is frustrated by something. If everything irritating was banned, new things would become the most common and effective and people would be irradiated by that before long.

    Its the mentality of the people who leave thats the problem. People have every right to use the best gear available to their build, and use whatever build they wish so long as it meets the SL requirements.

    The very second gear, any gear, is banned I refuse to take part.


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:19 pm

    Animaal... how the @#!*% have you managed to gain 100 reputation in little over two months? That's absurd. tongue


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    Re: Things I miss about PvP here

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