pvp etiquette when being invaded

That hurt, what did I ever do to you LunarFog.
Though I will admit its not always the case, its what happens most of the time. I may not be a pro but I win more than I lose.

brilliant discussion lads its certainly opened my eyes to some of the stronger views on pvping which was my intention with this thread so thankyou

Sentiel wrote:

reim0027 wrote:

Sentiel wrote:

luvz2fight wrote:Started invading today using cracked red eye orbs.

Every person I invaded I invited them to chat with me on the mic.
Regardless of who I invaded I always ran straight past them and unlocked all of the shortcuts for them. (I was in Anor Londo)

The people who didn't accept the chat invite got DESTROYED the people who did got to trade with me.

It was awesome, met a lot of cool guys and gals. Yall should try it some time.

I met somebody who did exactly this. Invited me to chat as soon as he spawned, ran past me and opened the shortcut to Silver Knight Armor.
I never pulled the cable so fast and blocked him as soon as I got back online.

Why did you get pissed when he unlocked the shortcut? Sound like he was doing a nice thing.

If an invader wants to do a nice thing for me, he should give me a difficult fight, so that I can get better at PvP.

PvE holds the most importance to me in Souls games. I love to PvP and all, but co-oping and questing holds the cake for me. If someone goes and opens up a shortcut for me, or does something like that, it inevitably takes away the pleasure of doing it myself. I don't mind when I get invaded, I enjoy the fight even if I get killed by the invader. It's all part of the game, but as soon as the invader runs away from me, for whatever reason, I pull the cable.

To each their own, I guess. I can respect that.

It's interesting to see people attempting to hold on to some illusion of fair play in a game like this. The series, as it is, is about overcoming unforgiving brutality. Part of me wants to believe that the desire for honorable duels is a sign of people overcoming their more base nature but, really, it smells more of naivete.

I've seen only a bare handful of these bow-then-fight instances. The vast majority of PvP that I've encountered, and this is from someone playing and not just sitting at 120, has been tweaked out gear and people playing every angle for a quick kill. From twinked lv4s culling new players to packs of farmers sitting and harvesting blue/forest invaders. Most of it seems to be about winning at any cost. The path of least resistance, it's only natural.

The bulk of my PvP experience is from EVE Online. Play every angle. Look strong when you are weak, hide 10:1 odds around the next corner to crush the opposition, hunt for the unsuspecting. The rule there is simple, if you log in you consent to PvP. Be it someone shooting your ship to someone tricking you out of money to someone undercutting your market shares and leaving you holding worthless goods. I don't see it being much different here. If you're human, you've given your consent to have anything you expect and everything you don't thrown at you.

Getting upset at people for taking advantage of every opportunity presented to them is folly. They aren't bad people or rude, cruel or cheap, just efficient. If you choose to play in a way that impacts your own efficiency, if you choose to hamper your ability to win, that's fine. Just don't get mad when someone else doesn't hobble themselves in kind.

Sounds like typical movie/game bad guy justification to do whatever he wants.

Its not a justification, its observation and advice.

Sentiel wrote:Sounds like typical movie/game bad guy justification to do whatever he wants.

Getting upset when people don't bow or respect made-up ROE smacks of hubris. Demanding that other players play their game the way you want and then getting mad when they don't is just silly.

For what its worth, DS (both) have been almost pure PvE for me. I don't really like the PvP systems present in either. It's fine but feels too much like a fighter and I've never been into frame counting. Just not something I find fun. So yea.. "whatever he wants" in this case is "Co-op PvE".

Like Pirate said, it's just an observation and some advice. The sooner people learn to get over their self-imposed limitations, the sooner they'll free themselves from unnecessary frustration. Even if someone chooses to adhere to some form chivalry, which is a perfectly fine choice, they need to accept that they are hobbling themselves in the process and be OK with the problems they will have to endure.

Morality is subjective and always comes with a price.

exLupo wrote:Getting upset when people don't bow or respect made-up ROE smacks of hubris. Demanding that other players play their game the way you want and then getting mad when they don't is just silly.

I agree to this. On the other hand there are a lot of people who have these self made rules in Dark Souls. I think we should respect them, but not abide by their rules. For example, when someone bows to me, I won't use it to backstab him, but it also doesn't mean that I will go easy on him, or that I will refrain from using some specific techniques, that I know are frowned upon.

exLupo wrote:For what its worth, DS (both) have been almost pure PvE for me. I don't really like the PvP systems present in either. It's fine but feels too much like a fighter and I've never been into frame counting. Just not something I find fun. So yea.. "whatever he wants" in this case is "Co-op PvE".

I have to agree once again. The deeper I get into the PvP the more I feel like playing a fighting game, not an RPG. However, even this coin has another side. While I dislike counting frames and such, I do like that numbers are not what dictates who wins and loses. In most RPGs lower level player will lose to a higher leveled player, no matter the skill difference between them, but in Souls games, you can win against anything if you're good enough. That's something I desperately miss in most online games.

exLupo wrote:Like Pirate said, it's just an observation and some advice. The sooner people learn to get over their self-imposed limitations, the sooner they'll free themselves from unnecessary frustration. Even if someone chooses to adhere to some form chivalry, which is a perfectly fine choice, they need to accept that they are hobbling themselves in the process and be OK with the problems they will have to endure.

Morality has its price.

When I started PvPing I hated backstabs to the end of the world. Thanks to latency and lag a good lot of backstabs just look like they shouldn't happen and it just made me seriously angry. Anyone who was on the receiving end of a roll bs, or lag bs knows what I mean.
I can understand people that feel that some things in the game are unfair, because I was once one of them. Once you free yourself from that and adapt to it, it will stop being frustrating. I think it's a sort of a stepping stone in this game's PvP and once the player gets over this part, the PvP just becomes a more enjoyable, yet also more complex experience.

Sentiel wrote:Sounds like typical movie/game bad guy justification to do whatever he wants.

This was joke, that was left misunderstood. The way you phrased your post really felt like if a movie/game bad guy just said that to the protagonist, explaining and perhaps justifying his actions before their final battle. I wasn't implying that the post itself was a justification.

Me and my long posts.

I can't speak for other games, but PvP in this game should have some modicum of respect. Purposely trying to screw up someone's game should not be accepted as perfectly fine. I also don't buy the excuse that everyone is doing it, so why not free yourself and change your ethics code. I don't find that "freeing" at all. In fact, I find it stifling. It will hasten PvP's decline.

My $0.02

He's not saying "intentionaly ruin someones game" either. I'm not about to trick someone into hitting a merchant. I get nothing from it, the only reason to do so that I'm aware of is to be a griefer dill hole.

I respect my opponent by refusing to pull punches. They are a threat and are treated as one. As such, everybody I invade gets to deal every trick I can think of to gain an advantage. If they die, they can learn from it and adapt, rather than forming bad habits based on false data (like trying to tank a dgm hit because they were expecting 300 damage instead of 450, because when they fought me I used a +10 in an effort to "play fair" by using lesser gear to balance greater skill or spaming running r1's because I didn't just parry them when they tried it on me.)

Yeah. I'm more referring to spawn campers (the ones who wait by a spawn point and kill you before you even have a chance to react), and real griefers. Playing aggressively during an invasion is fine by me. If you are questing, and I invade you, use everything you can (no matter how "cheap" people consider it) in order to win.

haha getting a bow on your grave when you've just been smashed by gankers a quick one finger salute a chuckle then move on sometimes brightens up my day +1 for you sir if i knew how to lol

I have to agree with everyone who says that everything is permissible when questing. You have to keep in mind that although you may have a completed pvp build, the host might only have one stat complete or maybe they don't have their weapons, armor, etc.
In regard to regular pvp I think that if you want to do a buff, then you better make sure I can't hit you. I consider a buff a hostility - especially when you see sunlight blade with a katana - so as soon as the bow is done it's game time. Just my thoughts on this.

I agree. If an invader is foolish enough to buff in front of you, and you attack them, it is their/our fault.

As a dedicated Darkstalker, I expect my questing hosts to do everything they can to win.

hey its andres wrote:I have to agree with everyone who says that everything is permissible when questing. You have to keep in mind that although you may have a completed pvp build, the host might only have one stat complete or maybe they don't have their weapons, armor, etc.
In regard to regular pvp I think that if you want to do a buff, then you better make sure I can't hit you. I consider a buff a hostility - especially when you see sunlight blade with a katana - so as soon as the bow is done it's game time. Just my thoughts on this.

Speaking of buffs, i am a big fan of using them. But i agree with you completely, if you see me a buffin' and you don't come a runnin' you are either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid.

...or planning to turtle.

But still, if i buff it means i REALLY want to kill you and you should run in for that BS. However if you summoned me to a duel, a weapon buff is the only buff i will use and i appreciate hosts allowing me to use it. If im invading you and i use a buff, friggin' KILL me! youll live longer

Normally people will let me do power within, but the moment I do Darkmoon Blade on top of that...

Ive never really had trouble with people using PW. Maybe because the people i ran into who used it didn't have the experience to compensate for it but regardless, whenever someone uses PW I just treat it like their poisoning themselves. That way I don't fall into the bad habit of turtling until it wears off.

My point is that if you use PW and Im using DMB, Im not gonna back off. I will zerg rush you like ive gone hollow.

As a mid-level darkwraith build there will always be a slight bias towards dirtier tactics but normally I will look to engage my opponents in a way that is generally fair but competitive. If I'm up against a solo opponent I will bow and allow them time to buff/heal or whatever, and I'll fight them in a fairly straightforward way without any cheap tactics.

However, if they back off and heal I will go in with the lightning rapier and hornet ring mercilessly, maybe toying with them for a while with some dung pies. If they're foolish enough to follow me I will lead them back to areas full of enemies and watch the carnage.

Lots of times there will be a host with 2-3 summons and in these sorts of situations anything goes as far as I am concerned. The hosts will try anything to win and I will likewise try anything to disrupt them. I've been quite lucky so far and only received minimal hate mail from victims (which I never respond to anyway) I think most realise what Darkwraiths will do to them and they take it on the chin and move on.

I do have a policy of using the black crystal if I invade someone that I killed previously, one victory over somebody is more than enough for me and I find there's no challenge in repeatedly killing the same people.

I don't usually invade except for when I'm using my forest covenant character(suck @PvP lol, but learning very slowly) but even then when in the forest I bow, or wait for players to buff or heal from their previous fight. I also never jump in when they're fighting someone else even another covenant member(when they're not gankers and when I know it definitely wont be 1v2) but when I'm being invaded only a small portion have bowed or waited for me to heal. Most of the time when I try to bow to them they run right behind me while I'm still in the middle of gesturing and BS me. That **** is so aggravating. Even today I was invaded @ Sens while trying to kill Ricard for his Rapier and the scumbag ran right up to me while I was in the middle of healing after the fight. Seriously wtf?? I'm fairly new to the game but i still try to be honorable I just wish more people would be too. I hate being invaded cuz I suck @PvP but I still believe that there should be some honor in dueling.

There is a difference between invasions and duels. If you are duelling, then it is proper to let your opponent get ready. If you are invading a quester, it is something else entirely.

When I invade questers, I expect them to do whatever necessary to stay alive. And, I think it is ethical for the invader to repay in kind. Note, I said questers . . . not campers/gankers.

And, for what it's worth, I won't attack single hosts while they are fighting enemies, but I will hit them with a Lloyd's.

Im starting to get out of my bad habit of not using flasks when I get invaded. Some of yall may think im stupid for not chuggin dat sunny D but the thing is Im so used to invading that I don't bother to keep my flasks equipped all the time. Another thing is that when I do host it is only for duels. So sometimes when Im questing and I get a random invasion I will completely ignore the use of my flasks and treat it like a duel. I just have to remind myself that they don't care if I flask or not they just wanna kill me. Unlike me most people who invade are completely focused on the kill, a trait I unfortunately lack.I feel bad about it but from now on if I have the opportunity and they haven't used a Lloyds talisman, im gonna make sure I drink my vitamins.

So wait...when you're being invaded it's ok to heal??