PvP etiquette lesson

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    micb84

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    PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by micb84 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:10 pm

    I've been playing Dark Souls for a good while but have only recently started PvP-ing on XBL. I'm pretty happy getting hammered a lot while I learn, but I'm keen to fight honourably - even if this means losing a lot.
    Just wondered if some DkS veterans could point out any weapons/tactics that are considered 'not cool'. I don't mean obviously treacherous stuff like healing yourself or backstabbing someone who's bowing, but anything I might, as a newcomer, naively consider a legitimate tactic that has a negative reputation amongst established players (for example, someone suggested use of spears is not looked kindly upon?)
    I realise everyone will have there own interpretation of what is considered fair or otherwise, but I'd appreciate any help to avoid inadvertently commiting too many faux pas.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:19 pm

    There is a widespread dislike of Dark Magic, spears, miracles like TWoP and WotG, Hornet Ring, buffs, Crown of Dusk, pyromancies like Great Combustion and Black Flame, family masks , min/maxed builds, etc...

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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by LunarFog on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:39 pm

    In otherwords just do whatever you want.

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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:39 pm

    *EDIT* this assumes you're asking about duels not random invasions.
    That's the thing... so many people consider so many different things "unsavory" it's almost mind wrecking just worrying about it. For my own amusement I'll make a list of some of the stuff I remember getting complained about. I apologize if this is a little "tongue in cheek."

    (on a serious note, almost all agree on no healing (unless by magic), no running off to involve npc opponents, and allow for 1 buff + grass before the fight.)

    Backstabbing of any kind
    stacking poise/vit
    hornet ring
    stun locking
    R1 spamming (tracer seems like a major culprit)
    parry spam
    greater combustion
    wotg
    twop
    all dark magic
    any weapon buff (they are really strong, I'll give em that)
    lightning zweihander
    dwgr - (not so much after the dlc)
    masks of any kind - (also not so much after the dlc)
    spears / rapiers (generally fast poking weapons) that you can turtle behind
    giants set
    havels set
    hollow waist cloth
    elf ears

    also heard complaints about the following (less so on this forum)
    rofap
    great scythe
    sickle
    leo ring
    wolf ring

    I'm sure I missed something... (if in doubt fight naked with bare fists)


    Last edited by DigitaLinsanitY on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:42 pm

    I still say the Calamity Ring is the most unbalanced item in the game.





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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:15 pm

    DigitaLinsanitY wrote:*EDIT* this assumes you're asking about duels not random invasions.
    That's the thing... so many people consider so many different things "unsavory" it's almost mind wrecking just worrying about it. For my own amusement I'll make a list of some of the stuff I remember getting complained about. I apologize if this is a little "tongue in cheek."

    (on a serious note, almost all agree on no healing (unless by magic), no running off to involve npc opponents, and allow for 1 buff + grass before the fight.)

    Backstabbing of any kind
    stacking poise/vit
    hornet ring...possible though
    stun locking
    R1 spamming (tracer seems like a major culprit)
    parry spam
    greater combustion
    wotg
    twop
    all dark magic
    any weapon buff (they are really strong, I'll give em that)
    lightning zweihander
    dwgr - (not so much after the dlc)
    masks of any kind - (also not so much after the dlc)
    spears / rapiers (generally fast poking weapons) that you can turtle behind
    giants set
    havels set
    hollow waist cloth
    elf ears

    also heard complaints about the following (less so on this forum)
    rofap
    great scythe
    sickle
    leo ring
    wolf ring


    I'm sure I missed something... (if in doubt fight naked with bare fists)

    Man, no offense dude, but thats the most inaccurate op'd list I've ever seen.

    The current meta looks down on these things:
    -Spears.
    But only a few, it is still argued about to this day. The only reason some seasoned vets will say spears are op'd is because of:
    --reach
    --damage
    --stat investment

    -Chain backstabbing
    Some vets dont even consider this a problem because of the counters available for the tactic.

    -Backstabbing a bow
    Because it makes you a douche.

    -Pursuers-->CSS combos
    The only reason this has recieved ridicule is because the silver pendant won't work against it, and a skilled player with this build can wreck people, even opponents with a decent amount of skill. Also, it usually requires something more effective than simply using the Crest Shield.

    Thats about it. I might be forgetting something, but these are the core things to remember. Also, you'll find people complaining over builds that are simply their archenemies...their "arch-builds" so to speak. Every build has a weakness, and without a proper understanding of the game, people will scream a build is op simply because they are fighting a build that is meant to destroy them.

    PS-Again, I'm sorry Digital, but that list is just wrongand very misleading. It might be a good list in certain circles, but not the majority.

    Also, don't get me wrong, I love rules. I'd love to see a fight club with no BSS, SKS, or MLGS just because..no reason, just because.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:22 pm

    Never said it was a list of OP'd items. Just some stuff that's complained about. I generally enjoy when ppl go all out and use anything and everything.

    Cheers.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Dibsville on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:26 pm

    Some things that determine how the duel will go down:
    Bowing tends to mean a more fair duel, although people who use Proper Bow may be keen to backstab you should the moment arise. I don't think I've ever fought a person who used Proper Bow and didn't try at least once for a backstab.
    Depending on how you look at it, allow other people to Grass and Buff, as they would to you. (I myself bow after the Grass and Buffs, as I consider a bow to be the start of the fight).
    Weapons are fair game, but a few tactics with certain weapons can be considered unfair and cheap, including, but not limited to:
    Kiting with a spear, where you constantly roll around and only attack when you find that you won't get hit. The long range and fast recovery on top of decent damage can make kiters some of the most dangerous players around if they know what they're doing.
    Spamming Dark Bead, Combustion, Wrath of the Gods. Although just one cast every once and awhile is fine, spamming is frowned upon by most people, although a good player will simply find it as a chance to get in a free backstab.
    Turtling. Although many people find turtling to be fine, there are a few people who hide behind a shield buffed/Elemental Rapier and slowly chip away at your HP, it's almost as bad as Kiting except with this they can block. Although it also has shorter range.
    Certain magics. Things like Pursuers are mostly frowned upon because they seem to be a broken mechanic in-game, they have amazing tracking, lag means they are practically undodgable, and the fact that they are one of the strongest spells in the game makes really over powered, and many people who see Pursuers don't want to fight said person.
    Dark Handing during gestures
    Hornet Ring. Although it has received a nerf, it is still looked down upon by many people.
    Backstab fishing.
    Parry fishing.
    R1 or R2 spamming. For example: If you're using a Balder Side Sword or Gold Tracer, just remember there are other attacks that can be used effectively.

    That's about all I can think of at this moment. Try to watch out for them. Just remember everyone's views are different so these will vary from person to person.
    "Treat people how you would like to be treated."


    Last edited by Dibsville on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:29 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:27 pm

    Ya I get that. And again, I'm sorry for being so critical.

    However, the op was asking what a fight club would look down I believe.

    I mean, if we listed everything that was complained about, then it would be everything outside of standing still and dying lol.

    Also, likeI said I like rules. I'd like to see a fight club with some rules created around some of the things you listed. However, just about every fight club is like, "Everything has a counter...nothing is op"...which I strongly disagree with.

    Just because something is op, doesn't mean its unbeatable...kinda like Godzilla I guess.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:32 pm

    Animaal, no offense taken. Got nothing but love.

    I don't think you read my post in the entirety.. (you just looked at the list). It wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. They whole thing was simply to imply that this whole debate about what's "fair" is silly and you should just get on with it and fight.


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:35 pm

    DigitaLinsanitY wrote:....*EDIT* this assumes you're asking about duels not random invasions.
    That's the thing... so many people consider so many different things "unsavory" it's almost mind wrecking just worrying about it. For my own amusement I'll make a list of some of the stuff I remember getting complained about. I apologize if this is a little "tongue in cheek."...

    You're right, I totally did that. I remember that edit was there before I posted too. I dont know why I didn't catch the tongue and cheek thing. My apologies Bow
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:37 pm

    No worries mate. Sarcasm doesn't always translate over the internet.
    If nothing else I figured the (if in doubt, fight naked with bare fists) comment at the end would have tipped everyone off that I wasn't serious.

    *edit* that edit was also only for that very first line (random invasions = no rules in my book)
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Tanklord on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:32 pm

    The only thing that drives me mad is people who use when they win.


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by micb84 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:38 pm

    Thanks guys, that's made me feel more confident to carry on with my pre-existing fighting style(s) without worrying everyone thinks I'm an arse.
    Was just a bit concerned as the last dude who invaded my game - in which I was using a +15 partizan - repeatedly ran off into a group of enemies to heal, resulting in my eventual death (I refused to use an Estus). I was worried there was something about my fighting style that pushed him into such underhand tactics. But no, he was just a ****.
    I did consider the nude/bare-knuckle build as an option, but felt my intentions may be misconstrued.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:43 pm

    generally random invasions follow no rules. don't expect a cordial duel unless you're invaded in a dueling hot spot or via RSS.

    Kill by any means necessary. Expect the same in return. twisted
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:19 pm

    This is not directed at micb, but I'm getting tired of "etiquette". It is so ephemeral. Everyone has their own individual rules. It seems like no matter what you do, someone will be upset by it.

    We all min-max our builds (at the SL below, say 250ish). Therefore, all of our builds have weaknesses. It is not your opponent's fault their build can punish your weakness. Like BSing a fat-rolling poise tank. Or using Dark Bead on a fast DPS build. Or, using resonance rings to cast WoG. Or stunlocking someone with 0 poise. Or, turtling a rapier build. And so on.

    Virtually everyone can agree on: bow before and after fights. Let your opponent prepare (grass, buff, cast personal buff spells, etc). It is easy to see when they are ready.

    Bottom line: fight how you want your opponent to fight you.


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:26 pm

    ^That

    Except no calamity rings


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:44 pm

    Wow. Why might I ask?

    I never tired of etiquette. I always thought it was great that, even with randoms, there was an "understanding". I always liked that about the souls series. It's made it seem like a unique experience imo.

    I remember when I started, I too asked questions about certain acceptable behaviors and playstyles being driven by competitive chivalry.

    I'm proud to see new souls players coming into the frey curious as to "proper ways to kill". It really enforces how diverse and talented the souls series community really is.

    Our unified understanding of what deems one worthy of "douche titles" sets our community apart from other gaming communities. Most communities are rife with members trolling anyone who dares to suggest "man-made rules". As compared to us that seem to have an understanding.

    Sure there's some, with sound arguements, saying rules are in the programming. But just about anyone you ask, even Reim lol, will say, "Wellllllllllll yes...that DOES kinda make you a douchebag".

    We rock.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by SirArchmage on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:06 pm

    What happens in Darkroot Forest, stays in Darkroot Forest.

    Pretty much the only thing everyone agrees on.


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:26 pm

    What tires me about etiquette is there isn't a universal code. So, it seems, no matter what you do, it is against someone's individual rules of engagement. And, it seems, that many people expect you to play by their individual rules of engagement, or else you are "cheap", "OP", "tryhard", etc.

    About the only universal rules of etiquette are bow, grass, buff (let your opponent do the same), then bow after a fight.

    I would only add: follow the "Golden Rule".



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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Sneezer on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:10 am

    If it makes you feel like a douchebag, you're probably a douchebag.

    If even the reasonable people are calling you a douchebag, and you don't feel like one at all, you're probably a sociopath.

    That's how I tend to see it anyway.


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:56 am

    reim0027 wrote:...What tires me about etiquette is there isn't a universal code...

    That’s exactly the problem imho. There has been such a huge divide between people’s opinion on balance.

    This is exactly why I've suggested stricter fight club rules. I know it sounds contradictory at first, but it could very well be the reason someone down voted my comment earlier. People new and seasoned would love to see more balance in a souls game. We've longed for it, and it shows every time this conversation comes up.

    When the op asked, "What are acceptable rules of conduct?" the only answer that can be given nowadays is, "Bow…fight."

    Its a shame if you ask me. Do the imbalance issues ruin Dark Souls? No, of course not. But when a Long Sword wielder faces and Balder Side Sword wielder or an Iaito user faces a Washing Pole, one can't help but think, "Well %$#@%."

    That’s really all it is if you ask me. Combine that with phantom damage, lagstabs, and "crazy" dead angles, people come away sometimes feeling let down.

    I’m very pro rules. The only reason I quote the comment earlier was simply because of what, imo, the community has deemed fit already (which basically isn’t much), NOT because I thought they were bad ideas.

    Like I said I just like rules...there's a riddle thread floating around here somewhere with a whole lot of em...
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:16 am

    This comment is rather irrelevant to the OP's question but if you care about playing nice and having a respectful fight,stay as far away as you can from the forest.You will end up like me paranoid about hacks and ganks and won't much care about playing nice.
    Back on topic,I'd stay away from backstabs,any kind of spam at all and dark magic.You may get hate for pretty much anything,no matter how rediculous but those are the main things.
    And on the off chance you do go to the forest,anything goes but I'd recommend bringing a bleed weapon for the hackers.


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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:25 am

    KrazykevS10 wrote:This comment is rather irrelevant to the OP's question but if you care about playing nice and having a respectful fight,stay as far away as you can from the forest.You will end up like me paranoid about hacks and ganks and won't much care about playing nice.
    Back on topic,I'd stay away from backstabs,any kind of spam at all and dark magic.You may get hate for pretty much anything,no matter how rediculous but those are the main things.
    And on the off chance you do go to the forest,anything goes but I'd recommend bringing a bleed weapon for the hackers.

    Thats another thing, I've never experienced that only playing on the PS3. I feel bad for you xbox and PC guys sometimes.
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    Re: PvP etiquette lesson

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:38 am

    It happens on PS3 too,though probably a fair amount less.It puts a lot of strain on you to be honourable when every 5th invasion is a hacker.Moral of the story:Forest is bad.


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