What does cheap mean?

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    Rynn
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:49 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:I have another question about cheapness. The nature of a competitive game is that in order to execute a strategy, you must be better at performing it than your opponent is at countering it. So if your opponent is very good at countering a strategy, it becomes harder to perform. Because of this, does the cheapness of a strategy change depending on how good your opponent is? E.G. Zweihander stunlock is easy to do (mash R1) and hard to counter (you have to roll with specific timing or you get hit out of lag, you also have to know how to use i-frames to avoid getting hit by lag, and you need to learn the swing animation of the Zwei, etc.) for a new player. It also does a lot of damage, a QHander 4-hit stunlock is like 2k+ damage, so it's powerful. Is it therefore cheap? A more experienced player will know how to avoid a Zweihander easily, making the stunlock difficult to land, therefore less cheap. In addition, he will weapon swap out, being hit perhaps only once or twice.

    The only rationalization I can come up with is that that Zweihander stunlock is both cheap and not cheap. It is cheap when used against an inexperienced player (easy to perform and powerful) but not against an experienced opponent (difficult to perform and not as powerful).
    I personally don't think experience has much to do with what is an isn't cheap. The Zwei isn't cheap because even versus a complete nublet it's reasonably difficult to get that first whack off. (We've been dodging Havels Great Club for a long *** time). Greatswords used to be "Cheap" and Curved GS's still are because the accomplish the same effect as the zwei with less counter time for the receiving player and the same basic "1 hit and you're practically dead" effect that you're stating the Zwei is rationalized as cheap for. No amount of skill reduces the cheapness of a tactic, it just means that a more skilled player can handle more tactics efficiently.

    Once more, cheap doesn't mean it needs removed, or even nerfed.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:07 pm

    Rynn wrote:Where did I say they should be removed?
    They are a cheap tactic, but that doesn't exactly indicate they require removal, now does it?
    The rapier has other advantages the hilt doesn't. Turtling, a powerful double hit running attack, and a faster attack speed with 3 times the range of the hilt. While the rapier has the same disadvantages, it has more positives, and is overall a very strong weapon.

    Some tactics in games are simply better then others. This is the reason we play at SL100 or SL120, right? It's because if we went to level 200-250 everyone starts to run the same equipment for the most part, simply because some things are really just better. If something is more powerful, but requires far less effort to pull off, it's cheap. This doesn't mean it needs removal, however.

    You didn't need to say it should be removed. Did you read my post? (I admit it was long). As I said in my previous post, nerfing buffs would cause them to be not good enough, mainly due to their low amount of effective time already and insignificant power boost if nerfed for larger weapons. Therefore if it's as bad and overpowered as you think it is, logically the only option left is removal. Luckily most people don't share your opinions on buffs.

    I don't think that something becomes cheap just because it's good to be honest, this is where I draw the line myself with the word. To me, for something to be cheap, it needs to be unfair. In this way, only things that are severely distorted by lag really become cheap. Stuff like backwards WoG around shields, BS, even interestingly for me dead angling can be seen as cheap, though I admit this is more through a lack of adequacy in the blocking mechanic, not through the concept of dead angling itself.

    I apologise in advance for this paragraph as it could be taken quite badly. But to me your view seems to be "If something is good (high end of utility in other words) and easy to do (has a high chance of success), then it is cheaper than something else". This definition I think is incorrect, rather than defining what cheap actually means in our community, which is "worthy of no respect, vulgar or contempible", you use your logic to apply the adjective cheap with a different definition of it, this definition being "achieved with little effort". Your definition would be fine if you didn't attach the negative connotations of the 1st definition, but you do. I'll boil it down to a single sentence as that word vomit is overly complex and rather weighty:

    Either you use the word 'cheap' in a different way to the rest of the souls community, or you are simply complaining when you bring a knife to a gunfight; when you lose using lesser tactics and equipment in an otherwise fair fight.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:19 pm

    Cheap=what can kill and is relatively easy to use.
    Best summation I can come up with, I guess.

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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:37 pm

    Rynn wrote:The Zwei isn't cheap because even versus a complete nublet it's reasonably difficult to get that first whack off.
    From personal experience I can say that it's not. I have a very easy time landing Zweihander hits on most players.

    Serious_Much wrote:for something to be cheap, it needs to be unfair.
    What qualifies something as unfair?

    Serious_Much wrote:what cheap actually means in our community, which is "worthy of no respect, vulgar or contempible"
    How do you decide what is contemptible or what is unworthy of respect?


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:49 pm

    I define worthy of no respect, vulgar or contemptible as unfair.

    I define unfair as something that is caused to be distorted, usually by lag into a situation that the player should never have been in. These umbrella things such as BS, WoG facing backwards so it goes through shield, even dead angles (as I said fault of blocking mechanic being inadequate). To me, different tactics aren't really cheap unless the openly abuse things such as glitches and lag to win.

    If someone trumps me with a tactic I can't defeat such as DSS poking or use of up close Dark bead (examples given by Rynn as cheap), I don't consider them cheap, it's my fault my gear, tactics and skill was inadequate to surpass those tactics and wholly my fault. It's like a game of rock paper scissors even in some cases in terms of effectiveness of tactics against some and not others. If you lose you're not gonna call cheap, you simply acknowledge you made the wrong call in your set up.

    I hope that clears my definition of cheap up. I must emphasise my reference to Wittgenstein's concept of "Language Games". We all use the same word here, but mean totally different things- we are all playing different language games. As such the definition of what is cheap in Dark souls not one set thing, it varies on a person to person basis.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:11 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    Rynn wrote:Where did I say they should be removed?
    They are a cheap tactic, but that doesn't exactly indicate they require removal, now does it?
    The rapier has other advantages the hilt doesn't. Turtling, a powerful double hit running attack, and a faster attack speed with 3 times the range of the hilt. While the rapier has the same disadvantages, it has more positives, and is overall a very strong weapon.

    Some tactics in games are simply better then others. This is the reason we play at SL100 or SL120, right? It's because if we went to level 200-250 everyone starts to run the same equipment for the most part, simply because some things are really just better. If something is more powerful, but requires far less effort to pull off, it's cheap. This doesn't mean it needs removal, however.

    You didn't need to say it should be removed. Did you read my post? (I admit it was long). As I said in my previous post, nerfing buffs would cause them to be not good enough, mainly due to their low amount of effective time already and insignificant power boost if nerfed for larger weapons. Therefore if it's as bad and overpowered as you think it is, logically the only option left is removal. Luckily most people don't share your opinions on buffs.

    I don't think that something becomes cheap just because it's good to be honest, this is where I draw the line myself with the word. To me, for something to be cheap, it needs to be unfair. In this way, only things that are severely distorted by lag really become cheap. Stuff like backwards WoG around shields, BS, even interestingly for me dead angling can be seen as cheap, though I admit this is more through a lack of adequacy in the blocking mechanic, not through the concept of dead angling itself.

    I apologise in advance for this paragraph as it could be taken quite badly. But to me your view seems to be "If something is good (high end of utility in other words) and easy to do (has a high chance of success), then it is cheaper than something else". This definition I think is incorrect, rather than defining what cheap actually means in our community, which is "worthy of no respect, vulgar or contempible", you use your logic to apply the adjective cheap with a different definition of it, this definition being "achieved with little effort". Your definition would be fine if you didn't attach the negative connotations of the 1st definition, but you do. I'll boil it down to a single sentence as that word vomit is overly complex and rather weighty:

    Either you use the word 'cheap' in a different way to the rest of the souls community, or you are simply complaining when you bring a knife to a gunfight; when you lose using lesser tactics and equipment in an otherwise fair fight.
    I read your post, but the implication of declaring I was stating a buff was overpowered wasn't neccesarily my statement. I simply said it was too powerful with some weapon classes, which is a feeling I -still- have. Daggers and Rapiers are balanced by their low, sub-par AR. But buffs can more then double that AR and turn them into obscenely potent killing machines a little too easily. I've always felt buffs are somewhat fundamentally flawed in Dark Souls in the way they are implemented. The buffs themself are not a problem persay, but when mixed with particular weapons it completely negates their negative attributes. I feel buffs are primarily one of the reasons Strength Builds are considered inferior to Dex since it puts far more of an advantage on dex in it's current implemenetation.

    Rather then try to declare if something is cheap or not based on some invisible line the player crosses with -me- I look at things objectively, and laugh about it. Some things are cheap but perfectly accepted by players, like DMB and SLB are, and some things, like estus, are cheap but not accepted. Rather then letting that blur my lines, I just play my char and laugh about things. Only things that -really- annoy me anymore is Gankers, and even then I'm laughing at how stupid they are silly

    My favorite insult to jokingly shout out is that whenever I see a Zweihander, you can here me immediately call "THATS GONNA BE A ZWAPHANDER!" So it's not a personal vendetta, I just think some things... Well they happen to be cheap silly

    Dark Souls was never meant to be fair though.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:22 pm

    I see, well to be fair it's obvious that buffs are generally made for smaller weapons, as I'd argue weapons like daggers are useless without them. only 250 AR at full upgrade? what a joke. The problem I find with smaller weapons until they're about minimum 400-450 AR is that they simply can't hit hard enough. Defences of 200 and above make the damage of a dagger almost pointless, and then you can just roll through bleed to make said joke sicker. Only thing you can do is BS (which as i said most of which i consider cheap) or buff and swing.

    I feel rapiers are powerful enough though, as they have a bit less AR than normal swords, but can hit with shield up, fair trade in my opinion.

    To be fair, I don't get annoyed at people using certain things, DkS has hammered it outta me for the most part. It's just things like abusing lag for BS or dead angles you just think 'enjoy your easy victory, you didn't really beat me fairly' and move on. In the end it's just whether people want the easy way out (use cheap things like BS and dead angles), use the top level equipment/techniques (buffs, powerful spells etc), or challenge themselves using lesser equipment.

    I gotta admit though that saying something is cheap just because you chose to use a worse equipment set up is a bit silly, after all you could just use the exact same thing and not call it cheap (unless you're hornet ring BSing or using lag to hit with WoG or round shield)


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by WandererReece on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:30 pm

    Rynn wrote:My favorite insult to jokingly shout out is that whenever I see a Zweihander, you can here me immediately call "THATS GONNA BE A ZWAPHANDER!".

    that reminded me of this:

    Also, I think most of the cheap stuff has already been removed. DWGR's main function was removed. Fog Ring's lock immunity was removed. Backstab and Hornet Ring was nerfed. Turtling was nerfed. Strong magic shield was fixed. Remove TWoD again and everything's good in my opinion.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:40 pm

    WandererReece wrote:
    Rynn wrote:My favorite insult to jokingly shout out is that whenever I see a Zweihander, you can here me immediately call "THATS GONNA BE A ZWAPHANDER!".

    that reminded me of this:

    Also, I think most of the cheap stuff has already been removed. DWGR's main function was removed. Fog Ring's lock immunity was removed. Backstab and Hornet Ring was nerfed. Turtling was nerfed. Strong magic shield was fixed. Remove TWoD again and everything's good in my opinion.

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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by KingSeekerCow on Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:25 pm

    Cheap: One that deliberately uses the same damn moves especially in fighting games.

    You cannot really say anything is cheap into dark souls only because it is built(well me to it is) to be "cheap" in a way. WoG someone off a cliff, lagstab them to death. And etc. It is built to be "fair" in the sense, if you upgrade your items and learn from your mistakes, you will get better.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by martyrsbrigade99 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:18 am

    It's all subjective.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by GenericUsername on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:27 am

    WandererReece wrote:
    Rynn wrote:My favorite insult to jokingly shout out is that whenever I see a Zweihander, you can here me immediately call "THATS GONNA BE A ZWAPHANDER!".

    that reminded me of this:

    Also, I think most of the cheap stuff has already been removed. DWGR's main function was removed. Fog Ring's lock immunity was removed. Backstab and Hornet Ring was nerfed. Turtling was nerfed. Strong magic shield was fixed. Remove TWoD again and everything's good in my opinion.

    That doesn't stop DWGR from still being ridiculous. Light armor and low poise doesn't stop them from just dodge rolling EVERY attack you throw at them. And nerfing the hornet ring won't help if an opponent does nothing but parry fish. Hell I just got one shot with a hornet ring because someone spammed buffs and power within. WotG got nerfed as well didn't it? People can still just deadangle with that and **** anyway. People can still turtle quite easily.

    Even after nerfing all these things people STILL found a way to get OP with these.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:30 am

    KingSeekerCow wrote:Cheap: One that deliberately uses the same damn moves especially in fighting games.
    In my opinion, if somebody is having trouble with a move or tactic, his opponent is obligated to continue using that move or tactic. It's a win/win. The guy having trouble with it gets lots of practice, and after he learns, the guy doing the same move over and over gets a better opponent.

    martyrsbrigade99 wrote:It's all subjective.
    You're not allowed to post in my threads until you start uploading aga-

    Oh, hey.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:49 am

    The cheapness comes from what the player does and how he does it, not from what the player uses.

    Following the buffed Rapier example from Rynn.
    Normal attacks are fine, but once the player tries to use it's temporarily increased damage to one shot you with backstab fishing and starts to shield poke, that could be viewed as cheap.

    As for what I consider cheap myself.

    Exploiting flaws in game's mechanics.
    This includes many discutable things, which are subjective and lot of you will think they're normal and acceptable.
    I'm talking about things like spell swap, dead angle, toggle escape, instant block, pivot casting, phantom hits, latency and lag abusing and more.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by FullSpe3D on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:57 am

    Cheap, to me, is anything that requires 3rd party software. Such as lagswitching, protectorname armour, +15 crystal greatsword, infinite stamina/health/casts, higher stats than your SL could get. I actually got given some crossbow bolts from a random guy that have more AR than Gough's great arrows, around 120 per bolt. Stuff like dead angling and toggle escape are fine, but spellswap is the exception because that absolutely breaks the game. 700-800 pure magic AR with a CMW MLGS for only 32 INT? Come on.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Emergence on Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:57 pm

    Cheap is a tough one. It may be intellectually definable but I think how people apply the definition will vary, based on factors like a player's knowledge, ability to execute, adaptability, laziness and subjective impressions on how things are/should be.

    I know the end goal is always to reinforce meta mores and codes and I understand how defining things can be useful, but to be honest what I would really like to see more focus on are clinics/sessions/threads that aim to instruct and focus on developing adaptations to all different tactics. You see lots of beginner guides to x and y but there really is a paucity of advanced scaffolding in the community.

    I also think suppression of certain tactics may be robbing us of depth. There may very well be things that are just black and white broken but it still merits testing things out in a controlled environment over and over again to see what can be learned even if it means subjecting yourself to getting 'cheaped' by the same tactic repeatedly in hopes of a possible breakthrough. When we host the events we make certain restrictions to keep relative peace between all the dozens of participant of varying skill levels, but it would be nice for a culture change away from vitriol.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by crbngville2 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:26 pm

    Cheap - the constant chant of those who must make excuses for their loses in Dark Souls's PVP

    Cheap - the crummy P2P architecture used by From in Dark Souls; causing excessive lag and the exploitation of said lag


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:40 pm

    I don't think cheap is as subjective as people make it out to be.

    Example:

    When refinancing your home, a mortgage broker/loan officer is allowed to charge a total fee of 10% (in most states in America) as long as they have you sign what is called a "Section 32 Notice".

    This means if you are refinancing a loan amount of 100k, the originators fees may be as high as $10,000. This includes, but is not limited to, the institutional fees along with any other accured fees pertaining to the states required regulations regarding RESPA guidelines.

    Just because you are allowed to do something to someone and that "someone" doesn't know any better, does not mean it is not cheap for doing so.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Jester's Tears on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:43 pm

    I would support the ''Easy to use'' theory.
    Example:
    -Dark Bead is easy to use, All you have to do is run up to a guy and mash that R1/L1 Button, You'll knock away his shield and deliver tons of Damage without much effort.

    WoG is the same. Get close, Mash R1/L1 = Damage.

    Of course, this wouldn't really work on Veterans, (WE HAVE ALL GOT OUR *** HANDED TO US ONCE.) but newbies who dosen't know the Dodge timing for those spells will probably get destroyed in seconds.





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