What does cheap mean?

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    Saturday-Saint
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    What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:42 am

    Please define it for me, I'm being left behind by half the conversations in this forum because I don't know what you guys are talking about when you say 'cheap.'


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by kazumoshi on Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:55 am

    Prepare to open a can of worms, my saintly friend.
    I believe, by definition, something that is cheap is a technique that takes more skill to counter, than it does to execute, thereby making the effort required to utilize it "cheap".
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Juutas on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:16 am

    Aiming to win with the easiest, most laughable tactics that are much harder to counter than to execute = Cheap.
    What are these tactics you ask? depends on a player opinion. I would consider great combustion with crown of dusk to be one of those things that are "cheap" in this game.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:07 am

    Something that someone has trouble fighting against is called cheap nowadays.

    The only thing that I can think of that is legitly cheap is modding, and maybe spawn ganking with twop


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by billy_bayonet on Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:49 am

    wooden arrows they are very cheap


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:26 am

    The value of any tactic is derived from 3 things.
    1: Difficulty to pull off.
    2: Difficulty to counter.
    3: Power.

    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 or 3, your tactic is probably cheap.
    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 and 3 your tactic is gamebreaking: Sometimes 1 can have a high value, but if value 2 is "impossible" or Value 3 is "incredibly" while value 2 is "difficult" you also tend to have gamebreaking. Spellswap and Dragonhead Glitch fell into this "Value 1 is high but its still broken" category.

    Dark Bead is Cheap.
    1: split second to cast.
    2: you must roll a particular direction to minimize contact time with the beads.
    3: 1000-2700 damage at point blank range.

    Dragonslater spear is Broken.
    1: Fast attack speed.
    2: Enemy player must get close. A good player never lets that happen: In a good players hands virtually impossible to counter.
    3: 300-350 damage a poke and causes chip damage.

    Wrath of the Gods is Cheap.
    1: Very Fast Cast Time.
    2: Easy to dodge if you fast or ninja-flip: One of the many sorceries that make people think only fast roll can PvP
    3: 400-800 damage depending on equipment of the caster: Which means it varies from taking 25% to 50% of the average HP pool.

    Pursuers... is NOT CHEAP.
    1: Very slow cast time
    2: Very easy to dodge: Roll into it if you can ninja-roll, run the opposite direction if your not ninja-rolling.
    3: 1200-1700 damage if all the beads connect. Compared to 1000 damage for Homing Soul mass: which has better cast times.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by WandererReece on Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:55 pm

    Basicly anything that can kill your opponent is considered cheap by your opponent.

    Once someone said he was using full Havel's with Wolf Ring in the arena and his oponent called him cheap.

    I don't know the specifics, but I'm guessing the Havel guy was mid or fat rolling, so I wouldn't call that cheap.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:36 pm

    Rynn wrote:The value of any tactic is derived from 3 things.
    1: Difficulty to pull off.
    2: Difficulty to counter.
    3: Power.
    I think you can boil this down further and just say "risk/reward" but I digress.

    If 'cheap' really does just means that something is easier to pull off than it is to counter, then I don't think it's worth worrying whether something is cheap or not.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:00 pm

    cheap would be when you get a great deal on something like Buy one get one deal, or when there is a 50% off sale on items already on clearance.

    NOW THAT'S CHEAP!


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:14 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:cheap would be when you get a great deal on something like Buy one get one deal, or when there is a 50% off sale on items already on clearance.

    NOW THAT'S CHEAP!

    I know, incredible price!

    I go into tescos on pubcrawls just before midnight and have a nice couple of 20p sandwitches as they go out of date in less than an hour. You can't stand my bargain hunting tekkers.

    Anyway, to give serious answer as well, cheap is a word people apply to things they don't generally like happening to them, going as far in this feeling to consider them 'unfair'. It is at said point that the labels 'cheap' and 'broken' start getting thrown onto thing. People don't like WoG, so it becomes cheap. People don't like BS so it is broken.

    To paraphrase the philosopher Wittgenstein, we are all playing different 'language games'. Look it up and you'll understand the relevance of the concept to our discussion here.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by WandererReece on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:17 pm

    Rynn wrote:The value of any tactic is derived from 3 things.
    1: Difficulty to pull off.
    2: Difficulty to counter.
    3: Power.

    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 or 3, your tactic is probably cheap.
    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 and 3 your tactic is gamebreaking.

    1: Difficulty to pull off. = low
    2: Difficulty to counter. = low
    3: Power. = high

    An unupgraded straight sword hilt is cheap if used with Darkmoon Blade!

    I just had to test that idea, because once I killed a guy with it. He was level 130-ish. lol!


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:30 pm

    WandererReece wrote:
    Rynn wrote:The value of any tactic is derived from 3 things.
    1: Difficulty to pull off.
    2: Difficulty to counter.
    3: Power.

    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 or 3, your tactic is probably cheap.
    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 and 3 your tactic is gamebreaking.

    1: Difficulty to pull off. = low
    2: Difficulty to counter. = low
    3: Power. = high

    An unupgraded straight sword hilt is cheap if used with Darkmoon Blade!

    I just had to test that idea, because once I killed a guy with it. He was level 130-ish. lol!

    Your example is perfect for showing how trying to rationalise the label of cheap doesn't work. Even something as awful as an unupgraded hilt can be useful in the hands of the right player and build. Just because something can be easy to pull off, hard to counter and high power, doesn't mean it's particularly cheap.

    People calling things cheap on dark souls is similar to me as people crying foul when they start losing money in a casino. It's just a reactionary emotional response without about as much ground in logical thought as what you consider cute or attractive.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Carphil on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:36 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Please define it for me


    Spears.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:45 pm

    Carphil wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:Please define it for me


    Spears.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:50 pm

    Cheap is like beauty. Always in the eye of the beholder. If someone feels they were beaten unfairly, it is labeled as cheap. Many things are labeled as cheap due to ignorance though (not intended as an insult, just as a lack of knowledge). The more you learn and the more skill you obtain (hence the less ignorant you become), an amazing thing happens. Things start becoming less cheap.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:59 pm

    Well said reim, though I'd argue it's not a lack of knowledge that causes things to become cheap but skill at the game. After all it's losing that makes things seem cheap, which is down to skill not knowledge or ignorance


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:05 pm

    Having extensive knowledge of the game has never helped me to win a PvP match.


    Last edited by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:08 pm

    Knowledge + skill.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Animaaal on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:50 pm

    Sometimes while speaking or writing in english, the word "cheap" is sometimes used to articulate the sound of a baby chicken. It is hardly ever used for adult chickens or roosters.

    Adult chickens are commonly described in literature to make a "cluck" sound, and roosters are said to make a
    "****-a-doodle-do" call early in the morning.

    To the best of my knowledge it is used mostly for baby chickens, but can be used for other various baby birds. This form of dialect is more commonly seen in cartoons, or in closed captions for individuals with hearing disabilities.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Carphil on Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:51 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Carphil wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:Please define it for me


    Spears.

    Spears, jokes... all same cheap stuff.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:13 pm

    reim0027 wrote:Cheap is like beauty. Always in the eye of the beholder. If someone feels they were beaten unfairly, it is labeled as cheap. Many things are labeled as cheap due to ignorance though (not intended as an insult, just as a lack of knowledge). The more you learn and the more skill you obtain (hence the less ignorant you become), an amazing thing happens. Things start becoming less cheap.

    i always view things as risk vs reward. for example... TWOP + Pursuers.

    the reward is instant kill inescapable death for your opponent, sure the opponent just has to run away from you when you cast TWOP, but what is the Risk for the guy casting it? there is none. so there is zero risk, to super high reward.

    WoG, there is very little skill involved in casting the spell, don't need to aim, don't need to do anything, the person who has to avoid it has to A. time the roll perfectly, and B. hope lag is with him. thus the caster has a much easier time at being successful then the guy trying to counter/dodge it.

    this is how i weigh things as a scale of cheapness. i'm not saying WoG is cheap, i am saying i understand why people say it is cheap.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:20 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    WandererReece wrote:
    Rynn wrote:The value of any tactic is derived from 3 things.
    1: Difficulty to pull off.
    2: Difficulty to counter.
    3: Power.

    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 or 3, your tactic is probably cheap.
    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 and 3 your tactic is gamebreaking.

    1: Difficulty to pull off. = low
    2: Difficulty to counter. = low
    3: Power. = high

    An unupgraded straight sword hilt is cheap if used with Darkmoon Blade!

    I just had to test that idea, because once I killed a guy with it. He was level 130-ish. lol!

    Your example is perfect for showing how trying to rationalise the label of cheap doesn't work. Even something as awful as an unupgraded hilt can be useful in the hands of the right player and build. Just because something can be easy to pull off, hard to counter and high power, doesn't mean it's particularly cheap.

    People calling things cheap on dark souls is similar to me as people crying foul when they start losing money in a casino. It's just a reactionary emotional response without about as much ground in logical thought as what you consider cute or attractive.
    No, it isn't.
    Let's look at this objectively:

    1: Fast to pull off
    2: Short Range and Easy to wait out.
    3: Low Power compared to other weapons it could be buffed on.

    Conclusion? Not cheap, but hilarious.
    DMB on a Rapier, now that I find cheap. The buff isn't inherently a problem but it's too potent with certain weapon classes.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:24 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Serious_Much wrote:
    WandererReece wrote:
    Rynn wrote:The value of any tactic is derived from 3 things.
    1: Difficulty to pull off.
    2: Difficulty to counter.
    3: Power.

    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 or 3, your tactic is probably cheap.
    If you have a low value for 1 and a high value for 2 and 3 your tactic is gamebreaking.

    1: Difficulty to pull off. = low
    2: Difficulty to counter. = low
    3: Power. = high

    An unupgraded straight sword hilt is cheap if used with Darkmoon Blade!

    I just had to test that idea, because once I killed a guy with it. He was level 130-ish. lol!

    Your example is perfect for showing how trying to rationalise the label of cheap doesn't work. Even something as awful as an unupgraded hilt can be useful in the hands of the right player and build. Just because something can be easy to pull off, hard to counter and high power, doesn't mean it's particularly cheap.

    People calling things cheap on dark souls is similar to me as people crying foul when they start losing money in a casino. It's just a reactionary emotional response without about as much ground in logical thought as what you consider cute or attractive.
    No, it isn't.
    Let's look at this objectively:

    1: Fast to pull off
    2: Short Range and Easy to wait out.
    3: Low Power compared to other weapons it could be buffed on.

    Conclusion? Not cheap, but hilarious.
    DMB on a Rapier, now that I find cheap. The buff isn't inherently a problem but it's too potent with certain weapon classes.

    So you find someone having a weapon powerful from buffs due to stat investment a problem? Why?

    This is the thing. If it's in the game, and not ridiculously poorly balanced (like DWGR, though the solution for dwgr was equally as unbalanced to the point of complete mediocrity), I don't think it's cheap. Frankly I don't think the DSS or WoG are particularly cheap, just problems with solutions as any method of fighting in DkS.

    Anyway, here is my objective conclusions for buffs:

    I'd argue those three things you listed for the hilt buff, you could equally apply to rapiers- they're short range compared to othwer weapons, have lower power than most weapons and is fast to pull off.

    The problem is that these things either should require removal from the game, heavy nerfing or kept as they are. Due to short time till expiry and pointlessness on heavy weapons if it was nerfed then you limit it to the two options, either removal entirely or keeping as is.. Is it necessary to remove buffs? i Wouldn't say so, so they should stay as is.


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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Rynn on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:32 pm

    Where did I say they should be removed?
    They are a cheap tactic, but that doesn't exactly indicate they require removal, now does it?
    The rapier has other advantages the hilt doesn't. Turtling, a powerful double hit running attack, and a faster attack speed with 3 times the range of the hilt. While the rapier has the same disadvantages, it has more positives, and is overall a very strong weapon.

    Some tactics in games are simply better then others. This is the reason we play at SL100 or SL120, right? It's because if we went to level 200-250 everyone starts to run the same equipment for the most part, simply because some things are really just better. If something is more powerful, but requires far less effort to pull off, it's cheap. This doesn't mean it needs removal, however.
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    Re: What does cheap mean?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:41 pm

    I have another question about cheapness. The nature of a competitive game is that in order to execute a strategy, you must be better at performing it than your opponent is at countering it. So if your opponent is very good at countering a strategy, it becomes harder to perform. Because of this, does the cheapness of a strategy change depending on how good your opponent is? E.G. Zweihander stunlock is easy to do (mash R1) and hard to counter (you have to roll with specific timing or you get hit out of lag, you also have to know how to use i-frames to avoid getting hit by lag, and you need to learn the swing animation of the Zwei, etc.) for a new player. It also does a lot of damage, a QHander 4-hit stunlock is like 2k+ damage, so it's powerful. Is it therefore cheap? A more experienced player will know how to avoid a Zweihander easily, making the stunlock difficult to land, therefore less cheap. In addition, he will weapon swap out, being hit perhaps only once or twice.

    The only rationalization I can come up with is that that Zweihander stunlock is both cheap and not cheap. It is cheap when used against an inexperienced player (easy to perform and powerful) but not against an experienced opponent (difficult to perform and not as powerful).


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