A note about cheap/not cheap

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    A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Emergence on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:42 am

    There has been some grumbling lately so in an attempt to preempt a conflagration I would like to make the following statement about "cheap" tactics. The matter of what is cheap or not is a very subjective and personal choice outside of obvious circumstances where someone is employing an unfair advantage (bb, jumping). Other methods are much more nuanced. Before posting responses for or against a method being labeled as cheap, I ask everyone to consider the perspective of the other individual. Every community has their accepted norms, and the best place to reinforce those norms and play according to them are in places like Fight Club where a group of players come together and agree to the guidelines. Please remember that the meta-game is itself a creation of the players and not the developers, and the game world is the great wild. I encourage everyone to discuss and debate, but I do not want to see baiting or dismissive statements like "you people are all so ignorant and unwelcoming" or "that's way cheap, gtfo noob". I am seeing too much of that from both sides and I would like to see it stop before it spills into every thread.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:59 am

    Very well written, I agree 100%...we must respect every point of view if it is not
    disrespectful to ourselves or others and even then we should always maintain certain
    levels of calm and maturity here, I have always been someone to go more to solutions than
    just plain complaining and the FC example is exactly that, you have managed to make a space in-game with a set of guidelines agreed upon a percentage of the players.

    Many people enjoy foul play, let em, but we can have our own little part of the dark souls
    universe which is honorable still.

    Respect and love to all forum members.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by RANT on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:05 pm

    i personally find some tactics to be more boring than cheap, i dont wanna get bs'd three times in a row due to lag or people taking advantage of lag(wake up bs) or other stuff the developers overlooked, i dont find that fun at all, after all fun is the reason i play videogames for. which is why i started the FC here, i wanted to play with people that shared my opinion, otherwise i would've quit playing DS a long time ago.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:09 pm

    I think it's sad that it's got to the point of needing something like this to be posted.

    shows people should just chill out a little and realise it's just a game with mechanics you can choose to use or not use, and thats it.

    To be honest I'm surprised at the amount of metagame as you said emergence and ethics that people have applied to invasions/dueling, but I suppose that just stems from an emotivist response to a lot of things people encounter in the game.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:18 pm

    Look it all comes down to something common to everyone in real life not in games, you cannot expect other people to be like you and in fact, who would want that?

    Would be boring so embrace diversity of thought which in fact is what really drives
    forums, you can't come in here and expect everyone to agree with you over everything,
    I for one like reading the different point of views of people and debating with them
    in a respectful manner, it has even changed my point of view on some aspects of the game
    by listening to what someone else has to say and giving them a chance.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by RANT on Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:20 pm

    btw i agree with E on everything, not sure if my last post seem like it didnt, just clearing it up. there's no rules in the game, you came play and use whatever kind of tactics you want, that's whay it's in the game. some people do have problems with some tactics though, which is why there's a fight club.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Emergence on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:35 pm

    And to be clear I am not begrudging anyone from having an opinion. I just feel the time may be better spent coming up with creative methods for countering certain tactics. This game is still very early in it's meta life and with so many more gear choices than Demon's there are still tons of strategies to discover. To abort that process preemptively and simply restrict tactics could cause the community to miss out on some hidden treasures.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by JoocyJ003 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:51 pm

    Ill start it off by saying i think TWOP is cheap if use it just to backstab, although i dont think its cheap to cast it and then try to stunlock them with a greatsword or something.

    People who use an ultra greatsword or greataxe with hornet ring and just fish for a backstab are cheap imo, but id be interested in hearing an arguement in its favor.

    I dueled with a friend last night who was telling me i was cheap for using great magic barrier against his moonlight build, and hes probably right. Lulz Welp

    Oh yeah i forgot poise backstabbing, which could be combined with the giant sword/lighning rapier hornet ring build.


    Last edited by JoocyJ003 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by RANT on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:53 pm

    I dueled with a friend last night who was telling me i was cheap for using great magic barrier against his moonlight build, and hes probably right. Lulz Welp[/quote]

    that's not cheap, that's smart.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Reaperfan on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:55 pm

    JoocyJ003 wrote:I dueled with a friend last night who was telling me i was cheap for using great magic barrier against his moonlight build, and hes probably right.

    There's a difference between "cheap" and "hard countered." If GMB worked against all builds, then I would certainly call it a cheap overall tactic. He just got unlucky that your strategy was a strong counterstrategy to his :|


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Emergence on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:06 pm

    JoocyJ003 wrote:Ill start it off by saying i think TWOP is cheap if use it just to backstab, although i dont think its cheap to cast it and then try to stunlock them with a greatsword or something.

    People who use an ultra greatsword or greataxe with hornet ring and just fish for a backstab are cheap imo, but id be interested in hearing an arguement in its favor.

    I dueled with a friend last night who was telling me i was cheap for using great magic barrier against his moonlight build, and hes probably right. Lulz Welp

    Oh yeah i forgot poise backstabbing, which could be combined with the giant sword/lighning rapier hornet ring build.

    So here's my challenge for you. If those tactics upset you, come up with a solid counter for them.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:26 pm

    I just backstabbed a guy while he cast TWOP, literally when kneeling...feels so good.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by JoocyJ003 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:29 pm

    So here's my challenge for you. If those tactics upset you, come up with a solid counter for them.[/quote]

    Ok thats fair enough. The way i counter TWOP is either run away or unlock and swing behind me with a stunlocking weapon.

    Id be interested in hearing a counter for ninja flipping spear users who just roll backwards and attack.
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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:33 pm

    JoocyJ003 wrote:Ill start it off by saying i think TWOP is cheap if use it just to backstab, although i dont think its cheap to cast it and then try to stunlock them with a greatsword or something.

    People who use an ultra greatsword or greataxe with hornet ring and just fish for a backstab are cheap imo, but id be interested in hearing an arguement in its favor.

    I dueled with a friend last night who was telling me i was cheap for using great magic barrier against his moonlight build, and hes probably right. Lulz Welp

    Oh yeah i forgot poise backstabbing, which could be combined with the giant sword/lighning rapier hornet ring build.

    I agree with emergence on that one as well as his initial post.

    You know what you just did was exactly what we're being advised against doing?

    Frankly what people conceive as 'cheap' is just an emotional response. "I don't like getting Backstabbed" turns into "backstabbing is bad and cheap, boo to BS". I'm just saying put more than just your opinions and justify them so they avoid what emergence described big grin


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by JoocyJ003 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:27 pm

    Yep yep. My bad. I completely misunderstood the OP. I thought he wanted to discuss tactics and whether theyre cheap or not.

    But i also noticed emergence recommended putting myself in their shoes. Well from a poise backstabbers perspective his strategy is to tank a hit and get to my back. Maybe hes looking at me thinking he cant beat me in a melee battle. Either way, if i was a poise backstabber i think i would feel pretty dirty.
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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Carphil on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:34 pm

    I must admit I say many bad words when someone backstab me with hornets ring and point down, however, you guys are right, this is a discussion forum not a place to rage or complain

    I ask sorry if I raged too much lately or if I offended someone

    Like 5 of the new 10 new topics this weekend was about cheap taticts and pvp clones

    Also, no more kiln fights, I'm with headache already because of those guys


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:37 pm

    JoocyJ003 wrote:Yep yep. My bad. I completely misunderstood the OP. I thought he wanted to discuss tactics and whether theyre cheap or not.

    But i also noticed emergence recommended putting myself in their shoes. Well from a poise backstabbers perspective his strategy is to tank a hit and get to my back. Maybe hes looking at me thinking he cant beat me in a melee battle. Either way, if i was a poise backstabber i think i would feel pretty dirty.

    I think that people who choose those tactics would not feel dirty but would think that there is nothing wrong, or 'all is fair' as is widely quoted.

    I think that leeway in terms of the situation is overlooked a lot on the forums, and that not just discrimination between numbers of opponents, but also the situation in which a 1v1 could take place can also affect what is deemed fair to use


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by cdd1983 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:42 pm

    I'm still "young" at this game and I haven't done any PvP but respect my opinion or not doesn't it go "all's fair in love and war". Hypothetically if the battles were real life, say we lived in the middle ages for example, I wouldn't think twice about backstabbing or employing any other "cheap" tactic if it was my life or yours. Its like rage quits for campers and such in FPS's. If someone beats you accept it, regardless of the tactics used (excluding hackers of course), learn from your mistakes and keep going. Just saying...


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Carphil on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:45 pm

    cdd1983 wrote:I'm still "young" at this game and I haven't done any PvP but respect my opinion or not doesn't it go "all's fair in love and war". Hypothetically if the battles were real life, say we lived in the middle ages for example, I wouldn't think twice about backstabbing or employing any other "cheap" tactic if it was my life or yours. Its like rage quits for campers and such in FPS's. If someone beats you accept it, regardless of the tactics used (excluding hackers of course), learn from your mistakes and keep going. Just saying...

    Ok but now imagine a honor duel to the death, you have your sword and the opponent has his sword, nothing more. Would you poison your opponent before the fight? Well I would not, even if that risks my life.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by cdd1983 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:05 pm

    I would if I could. Survival of the fittest! Is it honorable? nope, would I still be alive? yes sir. Listen that honor duel is a bunch of crap. Thats why people don't do it anymore outside of fencing. Once people saw that "honorable" lost to guerilla tactics every single time they all changed their tune.
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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:11 pm

    I'd rather die with honor, than to win by ganking.

    The one exception is the Forest. Honorable duels are the exception, not the norm. People there expect to be ganked, it is the acceptable meta there.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Yesuurd on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:12 pm

    cdd1983 wrote:I'm still "young" at this game and I haven't done any PvP but respect my opinion or not doesn't it go "all's fair in love and war". Hypothetically if the battles were real life, say we lived in the middle ages for example, I wouldn't think twice about backstabbing or employing any other "cheap" tactic if it was my life or yours. Its like rage quits for campers and such in FPS's. If someone beats you accept it, regardless of the tactics used (excluding hackers of course), learn from your mistakes and keep going. Just saying...

    If you read about war you will know in real life as in games there is honorable an not honorable, there are still people who wouldn't bomb a complex full of innocent people just because a dictator is there etc..tht would be
    in the terms of which you speak.If all is fai in love and war then say the United States could have massacred everyone in afghanistan for safe measures, but they don't because that is not honorable and is cruel, ganging up on one person using tricks, it's the same as being in a street fight and calling out one of the guys in a group to face you like a man, if he declines he would be seen as a coward.


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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by WarriorOfSunlight on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:20 pm

    Errr.... you guys are being a bit extremist, it's a game, folks play it how they want, no amount of hate and flaming will change this, let's just leave it a that and get back to playing.
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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Spakulator on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:22 am

    Here's my take on this...
    I'm no stranger to games, rpg's in particular (first real one was Bards Tale 3 on the Commodore 64). I've only been playing Dark Souls for six weeks now, and got into pvp for the last week or so, not counting the occasional invasion. I did own Demon's Souls, never pvp'd on that one. Single player this game is nerve-wracking and great. I love the many armor's, weapons, upgrades and looks you can have. I love the simple, yet mathmatical way of finding a balance for what you want your playstyle to achieve. The movement animations are also outstanding, and getting a 'feel' for your weapon adds more depth than many standard rpg's
    However, I have already found out how disappointing pvp can be. It's pretty much all about the backstab. This is almost exclusivly used, and it takes away from some really good battles. I have also experienced the in-front-of-me backstab, and the next-to-me backstab. It's a broken mechanic that greatly takes away from the game. If they somehow made the hitbox very small, or something, I don't know. I find myself, after 30-40 losses from backstabs, merely trying to avoid the insta-kill. The only times I did win is when someone wasn't constantly trying for it, and we would have a great 4-5 minute battle! I guess since I don't know how to master/manipulate the move, I lose most of the time, but truthfully even if I did it would not be as 'epic' or fulfilling as a knock-down drag-out. I have noticed from watching a few youtube videos that people didn't do it as much the first few months of the game. I supposed after some people figured it out then it is all about the backstab from here on out. Even the rules of this forum's fight club have a 'limit' to backstab rules. Because everyone knows it's broken.
    This really is a unique combat-rpg and I look foreward to more titles. I just wish the backstab bug could get squashed so more of us can enjoy this awesome game.
    Also, I come to understand that bowing before the fight can get you charged with a heavy hit as well (I know this isn't the game's fault). Not cool!
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    Re: A note about cheap/not cheap

    Post by Lancelot on Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:26 am

    ++Respect to Emergence


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