Why is healing cheap?

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    Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:32 pm

    Title of topic says it all.

    I don't understand.

    The only way I do understand is if:
    They have glitched divine blessings.

    And... thats about it.

    Healing with a flask, or even a humanity, is risky business in a fight. You're just asking to get Backstabbed.

    On the other side, if you refuse to heal, then I find people play a game of backpedalling and using bows/magic/dung pies/poison knives, etc. Basically trying to keep their distance.

    It reminds me of UFC; how something is declared cheap or dangerous, so it is banned (blows to the back of the head) and then people exploit the rule, by allowing their head to be wide open to be hit (but only the back).

    I never use the BB glitch, and I find it strange when someone is dancing far away and won't engage, but then is upset when i heal. They CAN punish me if they were actually engaging me.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:45 pm

    Any cheap tactic can be punished, that doesn't make it less cheap. TWoP, for example. can be countered by casting the same miracle and spamming spells/pyro. But it's still frowned upon because no one wants to have cheap fights where the least fair wins. Healing is being a sore loser. Period.

    Edit: In a fair fight, of course.


    Last edited by Ghadis_God on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:48 pm

    Yes, but why is it being a sore loser? Why is it cheap? That is what I don't understand.

    I can explain why TWoP is cheap: after you cast this, which can only really be done before the fight starts I think, you can easily score backstabs and the other person has very limited defence. Therefore, it's cheap. It's also very powerful in the Metagame of dark souls: where people mainly rely on fast rolling/DWGR for defence. Take that away, and they're in trouble. My Tarkus build with a 86 stability shield isn't harmed by it half as much as my other builds.

    Also, TWoP is cheap due to the meta game because people bow and then can cast it. Without any bowing and constant pressure, its not as bad (but still pretty bad). I just find it fits really powerfully into the metagame.

    So why is healing cheap? Shouldn't you be on them to punish them? So please explain...
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:52 pm

    If you're in a duel it is really the only unsaid rule that people take to heart.

    So you only really need to worry about it if you are in the Burg and walk down and bow, otherwise I don't see where else healing is cheap.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:55 pm

    Buggy, can you try to explain why it's cheap?

    Everyone says its cheap; I get it that the community feels that way. What I don't get is why.

    It never upsets me. If they heal, I feel I wasn't putting enough pressure on them and allowed it to happen. What does upset me, is lag stabs, people with bad uploads, glitchers and gankers. Not one spell in the game upsets me; not WoG spam, not TWoP, not anything. I feel like I can defend against them all (usually).


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:56 pm

    Ultimately, honor is subjective and relies on an agreement between two people. It breaks down when duels aren't prearranged. So if you heal with Estus, and that's fair by your honor, fine. But if we ever randomly fight and you heal, don't come crying cheap when I chainstab you for it. Because in my eyes, trying to unfairly gain more life earns an unfair method to take it away. Cheap play earns cheap play, if you want fair fights, play by the golden rule.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:57 pm

    Double post, sorry.

    I feel like making a thread for all cheap tactics in general. Some stuff I just disagree with.

    Like half the builds I see use Grass Crest Shield and DWGR. So if they get TWoP they are screwed, as they built their entire guy around dancing in and out. What if TWoP was acceptible? Perhaps towershield would have a place! I don't see any builds using those, except for cosplays or fun builds.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:00 pm

    Ghadis, I still don't get it. Maybe I'm dense. But why, why is healing cheap? Both players have access to it; when I invade, I make sure I have humanity ready to go, which is faster and heals more than a flask.

    Why is it unfair?

    That's like saying "Rapiers are unfair. If you want to use it fine, but it's unfair." Give me a reason why healing is unfair, an argument supplying why they're unfair instead of just saying outright it's unfair please...

    Is it because you can't prevent someone from healing? That it's too quick and the fights would go on forever? Is it that healing can't be stopped and it's an insta win button?

    I honestly do not understand so please could the experienced PvP community that all agree healing is unfair please supply a why to it.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:03 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:Buggy, can you try to explain why it's cheap?

    Everyone says its cheap; I get it that the community feels that way. What I don't get is why.

    It never upsets me. If they heal, I feel I wasn't putting enough pressure on them and allowed it to happen. What does upset me, is lag stabs, people with bad uploads, glitchers and gankers. Not one spell in the game upsets me; not WoG spam, not TWoP, not anything. I feel like I can defend against them all (usually).

    I don't think it's cheap.

    Just everyone knows that if you are dueling in the burg that you aren't supposed to heal. If they heal I sigh and pull out a few of my dirtier tricks. But it isn't necessarily cheap.

    Dark moon blade is cheap.
    Tranquil walk of peace is cheap.
    Divine Blessings are cheap.

    Healing?
    Meh.


    What I'm trying to say, is if you are dueling in the burg, you are signing the invisible contract that you don't want to duel and you don't want your opponent to heal. And that's a respectable time to not heal, it's just something that understood around there.


    Last edited by Buggy Virus on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:04 pm

    With one HP I can easily run away and heal to full with a single humanity. In a fight what is to be considered is longevity, considering the ideas of invaders. Not just that, but boredom. I was looking for a quick match not a ten minute slug fest where I have to waste 10 humanity to survive a fight with one guy who keeps putting his back to a hall way that I can't get around to backstab him through. Not on a build for stunlocking, as well I can't damage him fast enough to kill him before the humanity pops. It's prolonging a fight, think about a fighting game in which both parties can heal to full by taunting. With spacing being important as well as the consideration of projectiles, it's far too easy to get a humanity off. I see someone start casting a spell, I can run around an object and use humanity, by the time their cast is done I'm at full health. If I invade the world of a person with only a handful of humanity while I have 99, I have the advantage merely because I farmed more rats than them. There is a point of working towards having the best to fight with, but this is a bit of a difference in that upgraded a single set of armor and weapon combo takes dedication but a reasonable amount. To keep constantly 70+ humanity it becomes MMO level of farming, doing dailies. Just so I can heal more than them, just so I can last longer when I should have died previously. It's just really silly. Understand, dueling is often treated like a fighting game, so its best to look at it in such lights.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Rudmed on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:06 pm

    Towershields do have a place. They are often used with a turtling style, so spears and rapiers go hand and hand with those shields.

    Another reason is of how much they heal by. A maxed estus flask heals for around 800 health, and that is pretty significant. Yes there is a risk to the player, but there are also moments were you can chug it safely.

    You just said the why Mark. While even battles are long, but they become longer and longer as the players heal. Eventually you reach the point where it seems like it won't ever end. I flask and you use humanity. We're right back to square one. Now we waste more resources over one fight that one or both of the parties are not honorable enough to take the loss. Call it the easy way out just without the bullet in your brain.

    Or just what Tolvo said.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Buggy Virus on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:07 pm

    Tolvo wrote:With one HP I can easily run away and heal to full with a single humanity. In a fight what is to be considered is longevity, considering the ideas of invaders. Not just that, but boredom. I was looking for a quick match not a ten minute slug fest where I have to waste 10 humanity to survive a fight with one guy who keeps putting his back to a hall way that I can't get around to backstab him through. Not on a build for stunlocking, as well I can't damage him fast enough to kill him before the humanity pops. It's prolonging a fight, think about a fighting game in which both parties can heal to full by taunting. With spacing being important as well as the consideration of projectiles, it's far too easy to get a humanity off. I see someone start casting a spell, I can run around an object and use humanity, by the time their cast is done I'm at full health. If I invade the world of a person with only a handful of humanity while I have 99, I have the advantage merely because I farmed more rats than them. There is a point of working towards having the best to fight with, but this is a bit of a difference in that upgraded a single set of armor and weapon combo takes dedication but a reasonable amount. To keep constantly 70+ humanity it becomes MMO level of farming, doing dailies. Just so I can heal more than them, just so I can last longer when I should have died previously. It's just really silly. Understand, dueling is often treated like a fighting game, so its best to look at it in such lights.

    I agree with this.

    Humanity and divine blessing muling has seriously stunted the balance of the game.

    They should put a cap on the amount a player can have on a toon at one time for certain items. And other than that fix muling and BB duping.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Ghadis_God on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:14 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:Ghadis, I still don't get it. Maybe I'm dense. But why, why is healing cheap? Both players have access to it; when I invade, I make sure I have humanity ready to go, which is faster and heals more than a flask.

    Why is it unfair?

    That's like saying "Rapiers are unfair. If you want to use it fine, but it's unfair." Give me a reason why healing is unfair, an argument supplying why they're unfair instead of just saying outright it's unfair please...

    Is it because you can't prevent someone from healing? That it's too quick and the fights would go on forever? Is it that healing can't be stopped and it's an insta win button?

    I honestly do not understand so please could the experienced PvP community that all agree healing is unfair please supply a why to it.
    I can try to use objective reasoning to explain it, but you still probably won't agree with me.
    You say you need to pressure opponents, but what about defensive players? Being agressive can work, but you invalidate an entire playstyle and branch of tactics by claiming that the opponent shoudn't have enough time to heal because you need to be constantly after him. Also, what about people who bs and heal while you're getting up? That's not punishable. Secondly, humanity is a rare item that is slower to use than Estus. Thus, the invader is at a massive disadvantage in any fight. It's not really that hard anyway to back up and pop a flask, your talk of "pressure" sounds like you're trying to justify something you already feel in your heart to be unfair, and boast of skill when you do something that requires none. Also, the maxed out flask heals more than most backstabs if your opponent's AR is under 550 or so, doubly if the opponent heals twice, the second animation being much faster than the first.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:17 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:It reminds me of UFC; how something is declared cheap or dangerous, so it is banned (blows to the back of the head) and then people exploit the rule, by allowing their head to be wide open to be hit (but only the back).

    Tell me when YOU'VE taken a rabbit punch, then we'll talk about why it's banned in UFC and boxing.

    Edit: On-topic, it's because you don't know if the other party HAS that capacity to heal. "I always make sure I have 99 humanity" Good for you. Now how about the guy who just invaded you? Or the host in the burg that heals AFTER every match?

    As well, long fights aren't that fun when it gets repetitive. It becomes a game of repeated tactics till someone is unable to heal at the end of it all.


    Last edited by cloudyeki on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Rudmed on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:18 pm

    I agree with this.

    Humanity and divine blessing muling has seriously stunted the balance of the game.

    They should put a cap on the amount a player can have on a toon at one time for certain items. And other than that fix muling and BB duping.

    If they do that then the game balance tilts another way. Once I use that item...its gone. Eventually you will have an invader that can't heal except for miracles. While host is just chugging estus flasks.

    So if you do that then you are forcing all the invaders who want to have a chance to either hit and run when things go against them. Doing this would allow the host to heal (which becomes chance and you pray they don't have many estus flasks), force invaders to chainstab, and other cheap tactics.

    You take something out to 'balance the game' then something else isn't balanced. This is the world we live in.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:18 pm

    Ok. So healing is cheap:

    Because it's boring.
    Because it promotes farming humanities.
    Because it negates spells / ranged attacks (this is precisely why I don't think it's cheap).
    Because the person that farms/glitches the most will have the most humanities (although 99 is the max).

    So you think healing, with humanities, would make the PvP community boring as you wouldn't like to lose to someone that spends their time farming.

    Fair enough. And maybe, maybe true. But is it? Is the person with the most humanities the winner? Having an answer to a fast mover that shoots ranged attacks is necessary to promote slow movers. I want a slow moving tank that isn't flipping around. So I heal. They have the option to engage me, or not.

    I think the lack of healing promotes a negative metagame myself, where viable options are lost.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:23 pm

    Well to talk stricty about balance, it gives a severe advantage to the host with Estus flasks. So now every invader must use Lloyd's talismans, except those can be dodge around as well. Suddenly it isn't a fight of players, but who has the better consumables. Whatever happened to just fighting people, outsmarting them and outplaying them? Again, they managed to nearly kill you why should you get a second chance? It's a duel, not a matter of life and death. It's about testing yourself against others and seeing who is the better fighter. If you wish to worry about surviving and killing people, fight questers or go to the forest.

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:32 pm

    I use Lloyd talismans when I invade. Just add it to the list of must use items, like Green Grass and Blooming Moss. What's wrong with a 'must use' item? Everyone uses the DWGR. If you want to talk about banning something from PvP, should ban that.

    Indeed, what happened to outsmarting someone? Why is flipping around shooting spells and arrows so viable? Why can't a towershield be a viable option?

    "Better fighter."

    I once saw a UFC fight with Frank Shamrock and Renzo Gracie. Strikes to the back of the head were disallowed, so Renzo 'used this' to put himself in a position where he would be really beaten without that rule. Frank said screw it and kneed him in the head anyways.

    I secretly thought Kudos to Frank because, in my opinion, that isn't the spirit of the sport, and promoted techniques that actually wouldn't work. When I used to do Wing Tsun, we were in a tournament in toronto. Rule was no strikes to the back of the head/back. Another rule was no kicks/knees to the head at all. Punches allowed. A third rule was pushing someone out of bounds gained you points. So do you know what the winner of this contest did? He fought, half bowed over, exposing the back of his head and his back, and just tried to push people out of bounds. It was the stupidest thing I ever saw, and I just wished someone would say screw it and knee him in his face, or give him an elbow strike to the back of the head.

    Thats how I currently feel about the no heal rule. I feel that with a slow moving tarkus, that they can just dance out of range and tag me with an occasional arrow and spell, and that they are the better fighter. I think... what the hell, how is exploiting the metagame making you a better fighter?

    Anyways. Good points; I still disagree, and I think this metagame is the reason for Grasscrest/DWGR users all over the place. I *think* that no holds barred might give way to different builds, but I could be wrong.

    Allowing healing might gimp magic more than it already is, as you can't slowly whittle people down, so there's that. But honestly, I hate farming, and if I heal constantly with humanities, that tactic won't last long. Eating away their resources I do think is viable. I do it with spells (especially WoG; try to get them to trigger it and dance away). And as an avid healer... honestly, you only have so many humanities. They run out. You'd have to glitch to keep it up (I don't glitch, not even BB). Only time I got stuff was I was required to get a covenant player up to speed in a certain time frame so I didn't have time to get all the stuff I needed.
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by dancash1808 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:36 pm

    I think you are wrong with all due respect. If I am DWGR'ing and you are med roll or fat roll I can evade you all I please. I can therefore heal whenever I please. therefore I have the advantage and an easier time punishing your attempts to heal.
    Skill doesnt equal victory currently and it would not with healing allowed either.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:38 pm

    I can't really see where you are coming from, since I've had great success dueling without the need to heal, while fat rolling. I'm a cosplay dueler, and not a very good dueler. But even then, if someone is turtling with a weapon to outrange me I just get aggressive despite using a great shield and Giant Halberd. That's the trick, it's not relying on just your one tactic. If you try to rely on just one form you're going to lose obviously. Just because you are slow moving doesn't mean you can't be aggressive. Earlier you were saying people just need to pressure their enemies more to stop healing, but with the complaints you've made it sounds like you are the one who needs to pressure your enemies more. Use angles to your advantage, bait them into attacking. If you want a prime example of this if he's still around we do have an Iron Tarkus Cosplayer who hosts in the forest, and fights against invaders even if they try to gank him, without healing. It can be done, you just might not be ready to do it yet.

    Also something you need to understand is it will bite you in the long run if healing tanks ever become common in duels. You know how I'd counter that? 3k backstabs and done with it. If I have to kill you five times over to win why go through that trouble? Just kill you in one hit and be done with it. As you said you'll be slow moving and trying to heal, so why deal with all that?

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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Spurgun on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:39 pm

    And what if someone makes a pure pyro/spellcaster. They waste all their spells on bringing you down to 100 hp, and then you heal. Essentially starting out fresh, while they don't have any spells left. Is that fair?
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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by cloudyeki on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:41 pm

    Again, have YOU been struck in the back of the head?! They tournament is liable for anyone seriously injured.

    Mid and fattys have their place in pvp, since they can stack their defenses alot higher and use harder hitting gear.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by dancash1808 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:42 pm

    cloudyeki wrote:

    Mid and fattys have their place in pvp, since they can stack their defenses alot higher and use harder hitting gear.

    Only at low levels. thats the problem with DWGR as I understand it xD


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by Rudmed on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:53 pm

    Another thing is what would you do if you healed! Chances are you would press your advantage and therefore deny your foe a chance to heal!


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:54 pm

    Valid points are made that Spellcasters would be hampered. They would need more than just casting from a distance, they'd need to mix it up, or after a hit, move in fast to put on the pressure.

    Note that I don't duel. Never have, doesn't interest me. In that small area of the burg, I can see slow moving to be not a big deal.

    I actually win most PvP fights in random locations (around 3 out of 4). Healing is a form of pressure, and I do use other tricks to apply pressure. Slow roll is slow, but their jog is a decent pace and can apply pressure with that and their shield raised.

    Agree with dancash1808 that faster players can just retreat/heal; I have no issue with this as both players heal up to full and then engage again. It's not a for sure thing that you can retreat and heal though (and, just like spells, you dn't have an unlimited supply).

    The only way a slow moving tank can heal is if the other person retreats normally. However, when they do retreat, it gives the tank options. I honestly don't have a problem with TWoP even if it's OP; to me, the other person can run from it. I think it also will promote greatshields which would be awesome. Good luck chopping through that guard (and, there's the option of exchanging blows).

    I've had many, many fights and I know against a good player you just can't heal without risking death (barring divine blessings). I find it's a valid counter to spear users, to casters, to bow and arrow dudes, and to everyone that wants to sit back shooting at you. I haven't had a bad experience with it to be honest, except for Divine Blessing users which happens too damn fast.


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    Re: Why is healing cheap?

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      Current date/time is Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:12 pm