It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:31 pm

    Sloth9230 wrote:Right, we want rings that compliment builds. Not make them completely overpowered. But we also don't want rings that are "the obvious choice" for all builds (Ring of FAP, Havels, wolf).

    At the very least you should consider using the other rings. Tiny Being's is a complete joke.

    At 99 VIT with FaP it gives you a good 120 vit.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:37 pm

    Well, after 50 those vit points are worth less so ehh
    Not sure what you were trying to say though.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:49 pm

    i think he was saying that it's the equivalent of having put another 31 levels into vit for the amount of extra hp you get..

    he was saying that fap ring is overpowered, and for pvp i agree it is, as builds are preplanned, and the only weakness of ring of favour is that lack of planning causes you to sacrifice it, a problem only pve builds will find, not pvp.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:09 am

    Serious_Much wrote:i think he was saying that it's the equivalent of having put another 31 levels into vit for the amount of extra hp you get..

    he was saying that fap ring is overpowered, and for pvp i agree it is, as builds are preplanned, and the only weakness of ring of favour is that lack of planning causes you to sacrifice it, a problem only pve builds will find, not pvp.

    I want a FaP ring that over a long period time lowers your stats to the point where it breaks itself.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Seignar on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:54 am

    In DKSII:

    - Blue Tearstone Ring should negate damage by % (50?) OR the entire defense system will have to be changed so it doesn't suffer diminishing returns.
    - Tiny Being's Ring would increase HP by a fixed amount (200?) [Makes it better for people with "Tiny" HP and makes it worthless for people with "Big" HP; its HP bonus is superior than RoFaP for people under 1000 HP]
    - The Stoneplate rings will increase defenses by 75 points; Speckled will increase by 40 each [Need better buff]
    - DWGR will decrease the invincibility frames of dodge rolls, but also decrease the recovery frames [Think of making the rolls faster; good for dodge experts]
    - Ring of the Evil Eye will add a Life Leach effect to all weapons; the HP absorption varies by weapon [For better balancing, and stacking effects]
    - East Wood Grain Ring will also halve durability loss after using a special attack
    - The Orange Charred Ring will add damage to rolls
    - RoFaP will only give 20% bonus to Stamina, but will no longer break when removed
    - Cat's Ring makes a return
    - Ring of Magical Dullness returns with an increase to +30%/-50%
    - A new ring: Will increase stability of small shields [For balancing purposes; no small shield would have 100% physical]

    Read that as: "I want this buffed/nerfed/changed and I want these classic rings back with this new one!"

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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Acarnatia on Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:18 am

    Perhaps the RoFaP can just be turned into three rings? One to boost health, one to boost stamina and one to boost equip weight.
    I think the Ring of the Evil Eye will only be useful for pvp if it steals hp on each hit instead of on each kill.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:50 am

    Acarnatia wrote:Perhaps the RoFaP can just be turned into three rings? One to boost health, one to boost stamina and one to boost equip weight.

    Think those separate items already got their demographic as the pinwheel masks, tiny beings ring, havels ring and clorathy ring. (i use stamina regen in place of increase stamina, cus lets be honest more regen is probably better at higher levels)

    Buggy; basically you'd want a ring of favour with a half life? I'd just reduce everything it does down to 10% hp and stamina and 25% equip weight, to make it a bit less overpowered.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:56 am

    I want a ring that you can wear any number of that gives you one ring slot.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:57 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:I want a ring that you can wear any number of that gives you one ring slot.

    Sorry, can't wear two rings of the same type lol!


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:55 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Right, we want rings that compliment builds. Not make them completely overpowered. But we also don't want rings that are "the obvious choice" for all builds (Ring of FAP, Havels, wolf).

    Serious_Much wrote:he was saying that fap ring is overpowered, and for pvp i agree it is, as builds are preplanned, and the only weakness of ring of favour is that lack of planning causes you to sacrifice it, a problem only pve builds will find, not pvp.

    You know there are some of us that think that rings should boost your build, that rings should do more than just add flavor. Look at how many rings there are that are actually useful, how boring do the rings have to be before people stop calling for nerfs? Also no one thinks about how these nerfs will affect low level builds. Nerf the RoFaP, Havel's, Wolf ring and you severely cripple them. These arguments seem more about the amount of people using them than game breaking rings, they are not over powered. And so what if builds are preplanned. Isn't the whole point of doing this is to take advantage of what equipment has to offer? Please stop trying to change things because it upsets your 100 and 120 builds for PvP this isn't meant to be a balanced Beat 'em up.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:15 am

    Either all rings should be as useful as Tiny Beings or no ring should be as useless as tiny beings. I'd much prefer more useful rings, but if they won't give us that then they may as well nerf the more commonly used ones. Fap, Havels, and Poise are all crutches. want to not not get stunned by a dagger? Wolf. Want to fast roll with better armor? havels. Want to invest in multiple attack stats? Ring of FaP. These rings don't make builds better, they're the only reason some of those builds exist. No one makes a mage simply because of the Dusk crown and Bellowing Dragoncrest ring(maybe a few do), those things simply compliment their playstyle.

    And I don't like that you assume I'm one of the 120 pvp crowd. I think that limitation is a bit dumb and only exists just so that people can have legit "builds". I much prefer high level fights where both opponents can have any number of things at their disposal.

    I also never said that any current rings where overpowered. Saying that they could use a nerf isn't the same as saying that they're OP.

    P.S. the nerf I suggested for havels would help low level builds.


    Last edited by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:43 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:18 am

    i actually think most of the rings are fair, DWGR was nerfed too much (should have been 30%). the only problem i have is that some rings are WAY to all rounder. but hey, FAP is a ring so that new people have a shot at getting a win when learning, or a way for more experienced players to make more exotic builds. havels......ok so its a little op when paired with other rings, but i can ALWAYS find a ring id rather


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:54 am

    For the record, I'm with sloth and do primarily sl 60-80 pvp.

    I'm all for people making the best use of what they're given, but I'd prefer either more "uber" rings or none at all. Either way would encourage more diverse builds, in both pve and pvp.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by raecor14 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:55 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:For the record, I'm with sloth and do primarily sl 60-80 pvp.

    I'm all for people making the best use of what they're given, but I'd prefer either more "uber" rings or none at all. Either way would encourage more diverse builds, in both pve and pvp.
    i believe this comment warrants a +1


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:56 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:Either all rings should be as useful as Tiny Beings or no ring should be as useless as tiny beings. I'd much prefer more useful rings, but if they won't give us that then they may as well nerf the more commonly used ones. Fap, Havels, and Poise are all crutches. want to not not get stunned by a dagger? Wolf. Want to fast roll with better armor? havels. Want to invest in multiple attack stats? Ring of FaP. These rings don't make builds better, they're the only reason some of those builds exist.

    I with you on this one as I said earlier. There just seems to be this knee jerk reaction that because something gives an opponent an advantage, it's over powered instead of looking at the rings that are considered useless and boosting them to make ring equipping more dynamic. It's a bit like the DWGR. Yes it was a ring that was a game breaker with it's 50% equip burden but it needs something more now just to bring back it's loss a bit to stop it from being a ring that does a nice effect, like making stamina consumption lower, or make continuous flipping invincible until you run out of stamina. There are too many useless rings or rings that don't quite hit the spot so hopefully these will get a boost in the next game.

    Sloth9230 wrote:No one makes a mage simply because of the Dusk crown and Bellowing Dragoncrest ring(maybe a few do), those things simply compliment their playstyle.

    I do and many others do as well (Youtube videos show this), and I do for pyromacies.

    Sloth9230 wrote:And I don't like that you assume I'm one of the 120 pvp crowd. I think that limitation is a bit dumb and only exists just so that people can have legit "builds". I much prefer high level fights where both opponents can have any number of things at their disposal.

    That wasn't aimed at your argument, that was at Serious_Much argument about builds, assuming he's referring to the level builds most people aim for.

    Sloth9230 wrote:I also never said that any current rings where overpowered. Saying that they could use a nerf isn't the same as saying that they're OP.

    I did actually say your arguments is more about the amount of people using them than OP, but then the idea of nerfing something would be to think they are OP, that's usually the whole point of nerfing.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:08 am

    Did you even read his post? You're AGREEING with him. More awesome rings would be an acceptable solution for both of you.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Sloth9230 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:17 am

    steveswede wrote:
    I did actually say your arguments is more about the amount of people using them than OP, but then the idea of nerfing something would be to think they are OP, that's usually the whole point of nerfing.

    The reason those particular rings are so popular is because there's literally no better alternatives. You don't lose anything by slapping a ring of Fap on any build. Melee builds in particular get nothing else, might as well use Fap + Havels/Wolf. Choosing what rings you use should be a bit harder.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:38 am

    Sloth9230 wrote:
    steveswede wrote:
    I did actually say your arguments is more about the amount of people using them than OP, but then the idea of nerfing something would be to think they are OP, that's usually the whole point of nerfing.

    The reason those particular rings are so popular is that that there's literally no better alternatives. You don't lose anything by slapping a ring of Fap on any build. Melee builds in particular get nothing else, might as well use Fap + Havels/Wolf. Choosing what rings you use should be a bit harder.

    Those rings are meant to be all rounders, they specifically boost stamina and health which every build uses. You can't neglect them like you can strength, dex, intelligence and faith, it's why glass cannons and fat rollers are pathetic to use in PvP. Those rings are fine the way they are, you've just have to make the other rings more attractive to use.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:44 am

    Again, you're both saying essentialy the same thing here.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:29 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Again, you're both saying essentialy the same thing here.

    Sloth treats the popularity of these rings in a negative way, that there are no better alternatives. Even though we agree other rings should be more attractive to use in the next game to make the selection more balanced, I'm pointing out that vitality and stamina can't be ignored in a effective build and that you will never get rings that will match the effectiveness of those rings. I'm also against the idea of nerfing them and even though Sloth said he would prefer to have useful rings, he also said that if we can't have that then they should be as useless as the most useless ring, which i think would just make the system boring and redundant.

    Just because we have some agreement on some things doesn't mean we are saying exactly the same thing.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:02 am

    Who cares? The outcome is the same in either case. Both increase build variety by increasing the number of viable rings (and so build specialisations.) There will be "go to" ring for less specialised builds in either case so it really, truly makes no difference big picture.

    You're essentialy arguing wether to use a wrench or tire iron to change your tire.

    Further more (as in my analogy) you're arguing preference, which is completely pointless. Neither is objectively better, for any set of reasons. (at least not that have been provided)


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:43 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Who cares? The outcome is the same in either case.

    No the outcome won't be the same because I do not want these particular rings nerfing at all, even if they still out balance other rings. The Hornet ring is classed as a melee ring. Has this ever been a ring on par with RoFaP, Havel's or Wolf's when it dealt 50% damage increase? If it was then why was it nerfed. The DWGR was nerfed to 25% equip, is this ring as useful as those three now? If rings like these are considered balanced now then I don't want FAP/Havel/Wolf nerfing to make the other ones more attractive to use. They are perfect in my mind with how much and what way they boost your stats and I care that they don't get nerfed.

    Forum Pirate wrote:Further more (as in my analogy) you're arguing preference, which is completely pointless.

    You're reading my argument wrong. He's hoping you understand what I'm trying to say with what I've written above.
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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:57 am

    steveswede wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:Who cares? The outcome is the same in either case.

    No the outcome won't be the same because I do not want these particular rings nerfing at all, even if they still out balance other rings. The Hornet ring is classed as a melee ring. Has this ever been a ring on par with RoFaP, Havel's or Wolf's when it dealt 50% damage increase? If it was then why was it nerfed. The DWGR was nerfed to 25% equip, is this ring as useful as those three now? If rings like these are considered balanced now then I don't want FAP/Havel/Wolf nerfing to make the other ones more attractive to use. They are perfect in my mind with how much and what way they boost your stats and I care that they don't get nerfed.

    Again preference. Its not whats balanced, as you've provided no actual facts thus far, its what you want.

    You're logic is essentialy "these are the only rings that are balanced and the rest are underpowered." That is ridiculous. Things must be judged


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:12 am

    by the standards of performance set by the performance of their fellows.

    The bottom line is, the "big 3" over centeralise the gameplay because 20%hp, 20-70% extra equipment weight and 40 poise will almost always be a better choice than anything else for most builds, unless they are rendered completely irrelevant by better rings. "Equal" rings will still be vastly underused because the "big 3" are always useful. For everybody.

    That switches the question from "how can I win" to "how can I avoid being flattened by the dodgy prick I can't stun with 2000 hp." That is a bad thing for a pvp scene because it all eventually boils down to there being a clear cut best build, so using anything else is pointless.


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    Re: It all began with the forging of the Great Rings...

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:22 pm

    Rings really should be, "OP," all of them.

    Havel's is terrific, wolf is really just as strong, so is bellowing, ring of the first born, hornet's, cloranthy, and even seance rings.

    The greater problem is that other than those rings, the majority of the other rings rarely have uses. Those other rings should be better, not nerf all the rings so they stink, and are very passive bonuses.

    In making more specialized rings that seem better, then the rings that are now considered "all around effective" would become more niche as other effective niche rings would exist.


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