Discussion about overall balance design

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    Juutas
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Juutas on Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:54 am

    Spurgun wrote:And yeah i don't want them to remove poise either, but they should take another look at it. IMO it isn't really working as it should now (wolf ring is a big part of that).

    If Wolf ring would give about 20 poise, things would get more interesting all around.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Jansports on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:04 am

    But Poise DOES add variance in gameplay. You can't Plan to lock someone with say the GBSH off a trade with a katana if you don't have enough poise to take that first hit. Same with many slower swinging weapons, like the DGM or BKGA, if you wear armor with low poise you can't look at someone holding the MLGS and think "If we swing at each other I'll come out ahead because I'm drenched in fat armor and judging by his witches cloak big hat combo since I'm not seeing giant legs and hes totally fast rolling he can't take a 2H from this monster axe"

    let me use a build I use as an example http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=475701668454082777 50 END 10 past the cap to be able to fast roll with decent poise. That's a serious investment, and was a hard choice to make when I was considering things like GC/Blackflame, using armor with better defences having a better shield and/or bow when I need ranged attacks.

    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=396675861809080762

    Same build but on occasion I choose to be slower, and a heckuva lot tankier. The bow is actually my primary weapon because well any spear that's fast rolling and I have my options limited.

    Choices I made affect both how I play and how other players play against me, when I'm fast rolling and I run into a similar STR build, if they are mid roll or fat roll they will want to try to trade with me because their Ultra weapon will certainly stun me, while mine won't quite stun them in their huge armor. If I'm in the heavier armor they're less apt to seek out trades because it isn't 100% apparent that it's in their favor to do so.

    You claim poise doesn't open up new avenues of play for opponents, that they only take away possible options. Poise itself is only restricting, you are correct. however the weight (and thus speed) associated with poise does open new options. I've said in the past the biggest drawback to mid rolling isn't the roll, it's the walking speed. A naked guy with a SKS can poke and kite and dance around a mid walker who doesn't have a bow/Xbow literally forever. If someone has enough poise to not get knocked down by WotG it then becomes an option to just Chain em off one after another and put serious hurt on them.

    poise being connected to armor weight deepens choices and gameplay options. Even if it's implementation isn't perfect, the premise of it I find both interesting and healthy for the Dark souls gaming experience.

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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Spurgun on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:05 am

    Juutas wrote:
    Spurgun wrote:And yeah i don't want them to remove poise either, but they should take another look at it. IMO it isn't really working as it should now (wolf ring is a big part of that).

    If Wolf ring would give about 20 poise, things would get more interesting all around.

    The problem with is that it **** on the system.

    More armor = more poise, but also more weight. But the wolf ring gives you more poise for free.
    It does the same thing as the DWGR used to do, only that it is the other way around. DWGR allowed you to equip armor and get poise while you still could fast roll (or flip in this case) and the wolf ring allows you to get poise while you still fast roll. The only differences are that you also got armor with the DWGR, and that you could flip.

    IMO they should remove it completely, the only way to get poise should be armor.
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Juutas on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:16 am

    Spurgun wrote:
    Juutas wrote:
    Spurgun wrote:And yeah i don't want them to remove poise either, but they should take another look at it. IMO it isn't really working as it should now (wolf ring is a big part of that).

    If Wolf ring would give about 20 poise, things would get more interesting all around.

    The problem with is that it **** on the system.

    More armor = more poise, but also more weight. But the wolf ring gives you more poise for free.
    It does the same thing as the DWGR used to do, only that it is the other way around. DWGR allowed you to equip armor and get poise while you still could fast roll (or flip in this case) and the wolf ring allows you to get poise while you still fast roll. The only differences are that you also got armor with the DWGR, and that you could flip.

    IMO they should remove it completely, the only way to get poise should be armor.

    Well...I don't know, it kinda f*cks up the system but then there is the ring slot sacrifice you make for that poise and that is the thing that makes midrollers extremely viable (you can equip Leo or RTSR for example and still have the super poise).
    But yeah, Wolf ring gives a bit too much of poise the way it is now...then again it's the only way for Dragons to have any poise.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Spurgun on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:26 am

    Juutas wrote:
    Spurgun wrote:
    Juutas wrote:
    Spurgun wrote:And yeah i don't want them to remove poise either, but they should take another look at it. IMO it isn't really working as it should now (wolf ring is a big part of that).

    If Wolf ring would give about 20 poise, things would get more interesting all around.

    The problem with is that it **** on the system.

    More armor = more poise, but also more weight. But the wolf ring gives you more poise for free.
    It does the same thing as the DWGR used to do, only that it is the other way around. DWGR allowed you to equip armor and get poise while you still could fast roll (or flip in this case) and the wolf ring allows you to get poise while you still fast roll. The only differences are that you also got armor with the DWGR, and that you could flip.

    IMO they should remove it completely, the only way to get poise should be armor.

    Well...I don't know, it kinda f*cks up the system but then there is the ring slot sacrifice you make for that poise and that is the thing that makes midrollers extremely viable (you can equip Leo or RTSR for example and still have the super poise).
    But yeah, Wolf ring gives a bit too much of poise the way it is now...then again it's the only way for Dragons to have any poise.
    But a ring slot is not that much to give up, since it's the best ring out there. .... ...(I just noticed that you're right, it would be kinda balanced silly)
    Havels ring is better in every way for mid rollers though. Wolfs is only really useful for fast rollers.

    And yeah, i would have to go 0 poise all the time without it sad
    I do wish that the dragons were at least buffed in some way if that happened (but that's another discussion.
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:35 am

    Just like the beiber ring it gives the benifit of heavy armor to most anyone without requiring the weight and/or speed sacrifice. In essence, the ring is more valuable than the slot. Its not losing a slot, its only having the one to begin with because the wolf ring is a given.

    There are always optimal items (especially for individual build archtypes), but when 1 specific item dominates across a number of build archtypes, it needs a serious examination to determine why its so widely used and its likely either the item or the cause of its dominance (poise in this instance) needs a tweak.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Juutas on Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:45 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Just like the beiber ring it gives the benifit of heavy armor to most anyone without requiring the weight and/or speed sacrifice. In essence, the ring is more valuable than the slot. Its not losing a slot, its only having the one to begin with because the wolf ring is a given.

    There are always optimal items (especially for individual build archtypes), but when 1 specific item dominates across a number of build archtypes, it needs a serious examination to determine why its so widely used and its likely either the item or the cause of its dominance (poise in this instance) needs a tweak.

    (+1)

    Yeah...rings shouldn't have such a great effect on builds or they would need to be balanced more.
    ROFAP or Wolf are a no brainer for most of the builds and this just kills the variety.
    I would be brave enough to say I would want the next game to have 3 special item slots (necklace + 2 rings) but those items wouldn't be anything HUGE, just a minor bonuses.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:28 am

    What I'd do, personally, is cap the net bonus at 25%. I would put no item or combination of items to allow a boost of above 25% unless it started cutting into something else, like the COD does. (the rofap, for example, isn't something I would allow as its boosts total 40% for just the 1 item) It would have to be an important loss to. If a ring boosted your stamina regen by 50 % its also going to cost you 25% of your max hp. If that ring boosts equipment burden by 50% your stamina is being cut by 30%.

    Those were just examples, but you get the idea. Most Items wouldn't break the 15% mark for their effect strength.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Jansports on Sun Dec 30, 2012 9:46 am

    I think plenty of rings suffer from "not quite good enough" Hornets was nerfed, and even before it's uses was narrow in scope (and often frowned upon by children and manlets) Leo is great, with a non split damage spear (so pretty much the SKS or maybe the pike on a quality/str build) Bellowing and Firstborn are both strong on their respective dedicated builds. Havel's is actually not that bad on some builds with medium weight weapons as you can get enough poise from the armor you can wear with Havel's/FaP without using wolf's (and unlike using wolf's your defences are also beefed up)

    But like Speckled stoneplate, Steel Protection, RTSR their use is increadibly narrow.

    Meanwhile RoFaP is good on literally everybuild. Every build has a use for health and stamina, and most really don't mind the extra burden. Wolf's is similar in that nearly any build could benefit from being staggered less in pvp. If other rings were broader in scope, for example is leo upped all counter damage, not just trusting... it'd be on a lot more fingers. If Steel Protection added more defence in someway, perhaps if it increased armor by a % of the value you had, it'd be seen on more mid and fat builds with heavy armor. If bellowing/lingering/firstborn had darkmoon seance baked in (so boost + attunment slot) They would feel less gimmicky (shotgun 1shot) and more like they're intended to be used by mages(who really hate stretching for the fifth and sixth slots)

    I don't think it's wolf's or FaP or even pre nerf hornets that's Too strong, everything else just kinda falls flat
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Xero on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:10 am

    Who the hell thought Havels was a bad ring?


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Jansports on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:12 am

    How many builds do you see with Havel's Vs. how many you see with Wolf/FaP?

    It's not nearly as popular
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Xero on Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:16 am

    Its still a great ring. It allows me to fast roll with my heavy armor zweihander build. I use it all the time.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by WandererReece on Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:36 pm

    Spurgun wrote:
    WandererReece wrote:

    They will out perform a +15 weapon with 40 str / dex and match a crystal weapon at 40 str / dex. (Chaos will out perform crystal at 10 humanity.)


    That is completely wrong. 15+ would outperform elementals easily even without 40 dex/str, and crystal just owns them.
    Befor the patch, elemetals were stronger than now, but even then they were weaker than 15+.

    I'm aware of the obvious 2 damage rule. One would hit the weakness, and the other won't. I was refering to AR vs stats.

    Magic, divine, ect. also has split damage, but they also have scaling for them. You need to get the int / fai up high to get the most damage, but this isn't necessary for the fire and lightning weapons.

    Also, I think I finaly get why Saturday is complaining about poise. It's possible to get it up high without getting a slower roll speed.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:19 pm

    [quote="Saturday-Saint] *Snip* [/quote]



    While it is true that poise is restricting, that's how it increases customization. I know that is contradictory, so let me explain; You walk into a fight with a dagger, the enemy walks in with the Dragon Tooth. Without poise, the fight is one sided to the max; if you get on top of him and hit him once, you just stunlocked him, even if he is in really heavy armor. With Poise, if you just blindly run in and slash away, he's going to crush your face.

    To use an example of your logic, but the other way, Backstabs don't add anything to the game. They allow weaker weapons to deal monstrous damage, and punish the heavier weapons by restricting when they can swing; how can I blindly swing my weapon when I want if the other guy is going to circle around it and then backstab me?

    How can I blindly swing my smaller weapon when the enemies' poise won't allow me to stun him? It's the same thing.



    Please note that I am not making a jab at you, just trying to get my point across


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Spurgun on Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:25 pm

    WandererReece wrote:

    I'm aware of the obvious 2 damage rule. One would hit the weakness, and the other won't. I was refering to AR vs stats.

    Magic, divine, ect. also has split damage, but they also have scaling for them. You need to get the int / fai up high to get the most damage, but this isn't necessary for the fire and lightning weapons.

    Also, I think I finaly get why Saturday is complaining about poise. It's possible to get it up high without getting a slower roll speed.

    You were talking about how they perform, so i assumed that you meant how much damage would do in a fight.

    And i don't count magic/divine as elementals.



    Edited it to remove some quotes.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Fossil on Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:38 pm

    I think poise is OK. Maybe I'm not following Saturday Saint's logic well enough, but I'm not convinced that poise makes the game worse.

    Spurgun wrote:
    Juutas wrote:
    Spurgun wrote:And yeah i don't want
    them to remove poise either, but they should take another look at it.
    IMO it isn't really working as it should now (wolf ring is a big part of
    that).

    If Wolf ring would give about 20 poise, things would get more interesting all around.

    The problem with is that it **** on the system.

    More armor = more poise, but also more weight. But the wolf ring gives you more poise for free.
    It
    does the same thing as the DWGR used to do, only that it is the other
    way around. DWGR allowed you to equip armor and get poise while you
    still could fast roll (or flip in this case) and the wolf ring allows
    you to get poise while you still fast roll. The only differences are
    that you also got armor with the DWGR, and that you could flip.

    IMO they should remove it completely, the only way to get poise should be armor.

    I agree with both points here (sort of). Nerfing the Wolf Ring would be a good start, but wouldn't totally fix the problem. Which is why I suggested a larger scale for Poise. I don't think being able to get a little poise from a ring is terrible, but even at 20 poise it would still be easy to hit the required breakpoint and fast roll. It circumvents the whole mechanic.

    But if there were a different scale it could work.
    (for the sake of this example, I'm not going to use all the real weapon classes)
    If you had scaling break points that went:
    daggers< rapiers< short swords< long swords< curved swords< greatswords< ultra greatswords

    Then it wouldn't be overpowered (at least IMO) to have a ring that bumps from one break point to the next.


    Jansports wrote:I think plenty of rings suffer from "not quite good enough" Hornets was nerfed, and even before it's uses was narrow in scope (and often frowned upon by children and manlets) Leo is great, with a non split damage spear (so pretty much the SKS or maybe the pike on a quality/str build) Bellowing and Firstborn are both strong on their respective dedicated builds. Havel's is actually not that bad on some builds with medium weight weapons as you can get enough poise from the armor you can wear with Havel's/FaP without using wolf's (and unlike using wolf's your defences are also beefed up)

    But like Speckled stoneplate, Steel Protection, RTSR their use is increadibly narrow.

    Meanwhile RoFaP is good on literally everybuild. Every build has a use for health and stamina, and most really don't mind the extra burden. Wolf's is similar in that nearly any build could benefit from being staggered less in pvp. If other rings were broader in scope, for example is leo upped all counter damage, not just trusting... it'd be on a lot more fingers. If Steel Protection added more defence in someway, perhaps if it increased armor by a % of the value you had, it'd be seen on more mid and fat builds with heavy armor. If bellowing/lingering/firstborn had darkmoon seance baked in (so boost + attunment slot) They would feel less gimmicky (shotgun 1shot) and more like they're intended to be used by mages(who really hate stretching for the fifth and sixth slots)

    I don't think it's wolf's or FaP or even pre nerf hornets that's Too strong, everything else just kinda falls flat

    This is the other half of the equation. Having strong items isn't bad as long as you have equally strong items that you're making a decision against. RoFaP has all the stats you want for PvP and boosts them a lot. While resistance rings, which might actually be desirable in some cases, give a very paltry boost in comparison.

    Flame Stoneplate Ring might help you survive a little longer against someone exclusively using pyromancy and fire weapons, but RoFaP is good in literally every scenario. And even in that example RoFaP is probably still going to have a more profound effect than trying to stack fire resist.

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