Discussion about overall balance design

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    Desenrascano

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    Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Desenrascano on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:56 pm

    Does anyone remember early release of Dark Souls where you had Ring of Fog which made you unable to be targeted? I do, and I loved it.

    A lot of people claim it was overpowered because you can't target, or that it made you really hard to see (the latter I find funny because it's ridiculously easy to see people with the Ring of fog, but whatever).

    Personally, I enjoyed doing a pure melee build where I just max DEX with the Thief blade and hide like Predator in the forest and 1 shot backstab people. I remember playing for like 4 hours straight without dying and obtaining over 5 million souls, which is around 200 PvP kills. I was rewarded for using a "gimmicky" kind of weapon and for pumping my DEX stat. I was rewarded for dodging enemy attacks to get behind them to backstab them. I was also rewarded for knowing how to aim without any targeting assistance, as 90% of other players used the Ring of Fog too.

    Now that Ring of Fog is nerfed, any pure melee backstab build that doesn't have any magic is severely gimped. Any player can now just press the target button and the Ring of Fog's effect is now gone. I just feel really saddened by the fact people rely on the targeting system so much that they felt the Ring of Fog was overpowered. Was it really that difficult to manually aim your attacks? I've played a lot of Monster Hunter, and that game is kind of comparable to this (except Monster Hunter is a lot harder), there is no targeting system in that and there's no need for it to be. Advocates of the nerf will say "just learn to adapt", but if anyone should have learned something, it's the advocates learning to attack without targeting assistance. I am extremely disheartened that the developers believed that not being able to target players was unfair.

    For example, my build against turtling tanks? You have to hope they suck or otherwise you pretty much can't hurt them. Not only is their poise insanely high that any frontal attack isn't possible, but their ability to target you makes backstabbing almost impossible when combined with latency. So now any players that created an agile character focused on DEX/STR is gimped against tanks. You can't attack them with their shield up because you will drain your stamina faster, and neither can you backstab them after they attack because the targeting system auto-corrects their aim and when they swing weapons like Zweihanders that have nearly 180 degrees of swing coverage, it makes it practically impossible to actually hit them.

    A typical response to this is "use the shotel!" Really? I have to use a gimped weapon that can only penetrate the turtle's shield with a heavy attack, where unless the tank opponent has fallen asleep - they will abuse their high poise and just wreck you while you're attacking. Even then, is it good design when I am forced into a certain playstyle that doesn't match the character I built it for?

    For Spellcasters, they have homing soulmass and that push-back AoE spell which can 2 shot you. With DLC, they have even more tools which make 1 shotting even easier. It's got the point that a SL50 or something can kill me when I am at SL200 just because I was unfortunate enough to pick a build that isn't viable, when it should be.

    It's pathetic that the one item that made pure melee viable was nerfed into oblivion by tanks/turtlers/spellcasters/hybrids or in other words, any non pure melee class.

    I suppose I can break up the problems with PvP into 4 areas to make it simple: Enchanting, shields, magic and overall balance design.

    Enchanting

    As we all know, lightning/fire/chaos enchants make it so some guy with 15 DEX/STR does equal damage to someone with the same weapon no matter how much DEX/STR they have unless that weapon has A or S stat scaling, which I believe requires over 80 of that stat before it deals more damage. I don't believe I even should spell out how awful that is for balance because it limits pure melee and buffs the hell out of hybrid/spellcasters. I can't think of one good reason why enchanting is so powerful, I really hope it is heavily nerfed in DS2.

    Shields

    My problem with shields is that playing without them is pretty much gimping yourself. With how ridiculous magic is, you're essentially forced into using a shield to mitigate the damage because rolling doesn't suffice any more. That and the fact that shields block so much melee damage and gives you an opportunity to counter attack effortlessly.

    Magic

    Ok, so magic was bad in DeS, we all know. What isn't cool is that Magic became ridiculously overpowered.

    I don't want to hear "just use this spell/item", again, forcing players into certain playstyles is dumb balance. Sure, not all builds can be optimal, but they should all be viable with most dependance being on player skill. Spellcasting combined with ridiculous enchanting gives hybrids and all spellcasters an advantage over pure melee because they have all the strengths of melee until a high SL but have magic that can 2 shot or instant kill on top.

    I honestly believe the devs never anticipated people to play hybrids, because it makes no sense that a "jack of all trades" character is an "ace of all trades" in reality.

    Overall balance design

    This part is where balance philosophies will clash.

    I've been reading threads about Dark Magic (this is for an example), and a lot of people claim its fine because you can use the pendant or you can use great magic barrier, or havels shield. Ok, there problems with each suggestion:

    1. Not all people will have the pendant, if they do, they need it equipped because its risky to try and equip it mid fight.

    2. Not all people roll hybrids or are spellcasters, and shouldn't need to, no matter how "optimal" it is to roll either.

    3. Not everyone has 50 STR for havels shield

    I am a big fan of any strategy working provided you play it right. I don't like being forced into certain playstyles because my opponent has a certain item or skill. Not every build should be optimal, but all builds should be viable with skill being the largest deciding factor.

    Is it good design that when I see an opponent has magic, I have to change my weapon, items and armour? If you think yes, then I honestly don't understand you. I believe if I made a shieldless backstab DEX build, that its possible to backstab them to death without needing to be 10x better than my opponent. You literally can only win based on the mistakes of your opponent. The skill floor for competitive PvP playing a pure melee without a shield is insanely high compared to playing any hybrid/spellcaster build.

    The best part is that the same people that believe you should be forced to use a certain item to beat their strategy, are the same people that complained Ring of Fog was overpowered when they didn't need to change their strategy - they just needed to improve their own skill at targeting.

    How funny is that? An item that required your opponent to be more skillful REGARDLESS of build gets nerfed while items/spells that require you to have certain builds/other items are completely fine. How are people fine with that logic?

    The same thing applies with what was aforementioned. I HAVE to use a shotel to beat turtlers while they can do anything they want to beat me if I don't have it. Skill isn't a factor here, only items are.

    The game's PvP has been designed for build and items vs build and items with player skill being a very small factor. I am a fan of there being counters to certain skills/items, but when the counters are only other skills or items? That's just stupid. It's the same as saying "I spent more so I should win", in that case, allow every FPS game to come with aim assist in multiplayer if they spend $50 more, or RTS games to have infinite resources for the same.

    Again, I believe there should be optimal builds. But optimal builds shouldn't win just because they're optimal. Player skill should be the largest factor, and if you seriously can't hit a player without targeting assistance, then you deserve to lose to a build that is high risk and high reward.

    In terms of builds, is pure melee viable provided you aren't tanky? I like agile classes, and I don't want to be forced to use magic to win, and neither should you. It seems my build has the shortest stick possible because I need to force myself to use certain items and I have to use other weapons just to beat another players. The one item that allowed builds like mine possible got nerfed because other players can't aim without assistance, and because they can't stand being backstabbed while their god-like shields are up and their 180 degree swipes can't hit me.

    I can only kill around 20 people before I die now in the forest. Now while people will say "that's still heaps", 20 people is a lot different to over 200 which I could do before. Also, people will say that sounds ridiculously OP that anyone could get 200 kills before dying. Let me tell you why it was fine:

    1. Everyone was using Ring of Fog, so I was just better at aiming without assistance (i.e. I am the better player)

    2. My build is reliant on backstabs, without a backstab I do no damage (a huge trade off)

    3. A big handful of those people were really low SL and I could kill without backstabbing

    4. Casters spells could 1 shot me if they hit me

    5. Tanks could kill me if they hit me once because I have no poise

    Does that sound balanced now? You would be insane to think otherwise. Now a pure melee backstabbing build has 0 redeeming qualities about it over hybrid builds. It seems they designed the game for hybrids only.

    Without a doubt, there will be a response saying "What about the OP hybrid/spellcasters that use it?" Well, what's the difference? You just have to aim at them manually, nothing else changes...

    Another issue is how they put limits on magic spells. Limits on spells just screams for magic to be overpowered. What better reason to combat accusations of your build being overpowered than to say "but I can only do it 5 times!" 5 instant wins or 1, it doesn't matter, it's still overpowered.

    They should consider removing spell limits and just nerfing damage output for all spells in DS2, everyone wins.


    Last edited by Desenrascano on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by XachAttack on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:03 pm

    Dark Souls is not designed for pvp, so of course it's not going to be balanced much, if at all. Everyone needs to chill out about this sorta thing, seriously.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by stryks1 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:20 pm

    For your issue on magic...ever try rolling/dodging? happy

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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Desenrascano on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:24 pm

    Depends on the spell. Homing Soulmass/Pursuers is hit and miss because of latency. It's just a roll of the dice if you get hit and if you do, it's near death.

    Other spells are impossible to dodge, there's some stupid Dark magic spell that shoots an AoE that can do over 1.5k damage in 1 hit. Very balanced considering the cast time and delay time afterwards.
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:44 pm

    In a balanced game you should see a wide variety of build types and a variety of different items. Pre RoF patch EVERYONE wore the RoF, otherwise you'd be at a severe disadvantage. It was not balanced. Pre DWGR patch EVERYONE wore that ring and we had all ninja flipping tanks. It was not balanced. Now we have dark bead w/ it's low stat requirement and now everyone is using it. Because of this I'd say that one spell is not balanced.

    However, one thing that has happened despite the unbalanced DB is that there is A LOT more overall variety in builds and more combo builds than we've ever seen. I think this is a good thing and what the overall goal should be. 'Balance' should be based on the variety of builds that we see on a daily basis. No variety = not balanced, lots of variety = balanced. I think we're closer to having a very balanced game than any other iteration. I think one more patch to raise the int requirement of DB or change the number of orbs based on int would go a long way to increasing that variety even more.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:50 pm

    Desenrascano wrote:
    Other spells are impossible to dodge, there's some stupid Dark magic spell that shoots an AoE that can do over 1.5k damage in 1 hit. Very balanced considering the cast time and delay time afterwards.

    Unless it's that "Karmaic Explosion" mod most spells can be dodged after learning the spell. How it's cast, the time it last, how and where it goes, etc. Time and practice.

    About your thing on balance, I have to agree with XachAtaack that the game is not PvP balanced. It really depends on the player's build and how he/she uses it. A build that proves to be powerful against, say tanks is weak if the player can't use it right. On tanks the biggest issue for their shield-up defense is status effects such as bleed or poision, get a weapon that deals that and that defense is pointless. And while the shotel is useful against shield, other weapons like sycthes if done right, can hit around the shield dealing damage.

    If I learned anything on this game is that you learn to adapt to all situations, including the ones that are against you.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Desenrascano on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:07 pm

    aceluby wrote:In a balanced game you should see a wide variety of build types and a variety of different items. Pre RoF patch EVERYONE wore the RoF, otherwise you'd be at a severe disadvantage. It was not balanced. Pre DWGR patch EVERYONE wore that ring and we had all ninja flipping tanks. It was not balanced. Now we have dark bead w/ it's low stat requirement and now everyone is using it. Because of this I'd say that one spell is not balanced.

    However, one thing that has happened despite the unbalanced DB is that there is A LOT more overall variety in builds and more combo builds than we've ever seen. I think this is a good thing and what the overall goal should be. 'Balance' should be based on the variety of builds that we see on a daily basis. No variety = not balanced, lots of variety = balanced. I think we're closer to having a very balanced game than any other iteration. I think one more patch to raise the int requirement of DB or change the number of orbs based on int would go a long way to increasing that variety even more.

    RoF was mainly used because no one could aim without assistance. If players didn't heavily rely on the targeting system, RoF wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as it were.

    Playing without the targeting system isn't difficult at all either. Personally, the targeting system shouldn't even be in the game considering it's supposed to be a "hardcore" game. I suppose it will never happen any more because they want to make the games easier to attract more players.

    I agree on the DWGR because it allowed the heaviest sets of armour (smoughs set even) to ninja roll which clearly wasn't balanced.
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by The Letter X on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:20 pm

    I'll just say that agile builds can still be effective. If all you want to do is dodge your opponents' attacks to get in a BS, then it is still pretty easy. Use the DWGR and you're pretty much set for dodging plus it's a beast for roll-BSes.

    You mentioned that it is impossible to fight without a shield because of spells, but dodging really is the best way to beat a spellcaster. I have never used a shield in PvP, and it's really easy for me to dodge both spells and melee weapons. You've even got the kick to give yourself some space and parries for awesome counter attacks and flat-out damage mitigation when you're in a bind. I may not use a shield, but I still bare hand parry all the time and purposely get partial parries when I just can't get out of the way.

    To address your main question, I think Dark Souls PvP is balanced because player skill exists. If you're good enough you shouldn't need to worry about anything that comes your way, even hackers. Now some things definitely require more skill to balance it out, like Dark Bead, Pursuers, some turtlers, spear flippers, and some other things. This is definitely unfair, but if I can beat a group of 3 gankers in the Forest wearing full Havel's, DWGR, Dark Bead, Pursuers, and Gold Tracers whIle I have no shield, magic, pyromancy, or the STR requirement to wield my weapon one handed, then I think things are fine the way they are.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:13 pm

    Desenrascano wrote:

    RoF was mainly used because no one could aim without assistance. If players didn't heavily rely on the targeting system, RoF wouldn't have been anywhere near as popular as it were.

    Playing without the targeting system isn't difficult at all either. Personally, the targeting system shouldn't even be in the game considering it's supposed to be a "hardcore" game. I suppose it will never happen any more because they want to make the games easier to attract more players.

    I agree on the DWGR because it allowed the heaviest sets of armour (smoughs set even) to ninja roll which clearly wasn't balanced.

    Since targeting is pretty much required for mages, it made spell casters basically useless and is the reason I didn't PvP w/ my mage (1st char) until it was patched. I don't think the targeting system makes the game less 'hardcore', it's a small part of the overall system and those that don't rely on it have a tactical advantage over those who do.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Jansports on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:13 pm

    Pure melee builds still work. Tanks aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be, BSing people is still not only possible but popular.

    It was Fog, then DWGR now it's RoFaP basically everyone uses it, and most use wolf's. There will *Always* Be a best.

    But as of now I see STR tanks, Pure casters for both Int and Fai, Dex Pyro, Dex and Str buffing. The variety of builds currently is astonishing, and that actually speaks towards a more balanced game.

    You don't Have to fight locked on, in fact many great players lock off often to manually aim fireballs, or to dead angle, it's very useful so if you can do it then you have an advantage.

    I hate to say it but if you can't make a Pure melee build about backstabbing work, then you just don't understand the magic and weapons you're fighting against, because not getting hit by basically anything is totally possible.

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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Fossil on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:42 pm

    XachAttack wrote:Dark Souls is not designed for pvp, so of course it's not going to be balanced much, if at all. Everyone needs to chill out about this sorta thing, seriously.

    Pretty much this. As much as people love Souls PvP, it's not balanced at all. So unless FROM makes a commitment to put a serious focus on it, there's no reason for players to take it seriously.

    That's not to say there won't be rage inducing moments or overpowered items, but there's a limit on how much these things can be brought in line.

    Dueling is not a very good measure of balance either. So unless DS2 PvP becomes more focused on 2v2 + 3v3, the best you can ever hope for is a rock/paper/scissors scenario. Which means there will still always be builds that hard counter you.

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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Spurgun on Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:57 pm

    Desenrascano wrote:Depends on the spell. Homing Soulmass/Pursuers is hit and miss because of latency. It's just a roll of the dice if you get hit and if you do, it's near death.

    Other spells are impossible to dodge, there's some stupid Dark magic spell that shoots an AoE that can do over 1.5k damage in 1 hit. Very balanced considering the cast time and delay time afterwards.

    Homing spells are very easy to dodge. They only hit if your preoccupied or if the enemy has a huge amount of lag (in which case you probably would have lost no matter what type of build he had).
    I'm talking about dodging them with fast roll of course.

    EDIT. Did you mean that magic is OP in DkS? IMO it's the opposite (pre DLC. All spells are ridiculously easy to dodge, Unless you're caught off-guard. You can beat mages without ever being hit.


    I do agree with that DB is a bit OP, it shouldn't break guards as easily as it apparently does.


    Regarding you thoughts on enchating. I agree with what you said about it if you were only talking about elementals. But enchanted/occult/magic/divine are good as they are. They are weaker than 15 (assuming you have 40 str/dex and 50 fth/int).
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by aceluby on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:02 pm

    Jansports wrote:
    But as of now I see STR tanks, Pure casters for both Int and Fai, Dex Pyro, Dex and Str buffing. The variety of builds currently is astonishing, and that actually speaks towards a more balanced game.

    ^^This^^

    'Balance' isn't about how much you're winning or losing (especially to specific builds), but the variance in the character builds that you see. If everyone is using the same build you know the game is not balanced because those people are gravitating toward the build they are most successful with and typically the build they are losing the most to. It's why I think a 'small' nerf or change to dark bead would make the balance near perfect, because ever since the DLC I've seen TONS of variation that hasn't been in this game since release.



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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:10 pm

    Random thoughts on PvP balance and gameplay:

    -Poise needs to not be in DkS 2, or at least it needs to get seriously re-worked.
    -Fix rolling attacks. Make them cancel all or most of roll-recovery, and make it so you can delay them.
    -Heavy weapons should have some fast attacks to balance out their otherwise slow moveset.
    -Make build and weapon match-ups less slanted. As Fossil or whoever pointed out, you run into a lot of hard-counter sort of things. E.G., if I'm playing my DSGB build, I get wrecked by shieldpokers. Spears are a ***** to deal with for most weapons, but pretty simple if you have certain tools. Et cetera. I'm not exactly sure how this happened when in DeS it wasn't much of a problem. Most likely it happened due to the enormous explosion of build diversity between the games.
    -Magic's current design is terrible. Take something like pivot-casting from Demon's Souls and build it into the system. Hold the spell button to charge the spell, or tap the button to cast it quickly, dealing less damage but having the spell come out almost instantly. And make fizzling a mechanic and make it as good as it was in Demon's Souls, except for the part where you can cancel the recovery, because stunlocking people with fireballs is silly.
    -If the lag gets fixed, parries need to get tweaked a lot.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Jansports on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:53 pm

    I actually think poise is a great mechanic, your armor should matter and poise makes it matter a hell of a lot. I actually think they should've left a few of the stunlocks in, particularly on the Ultra weapons because really they didn't have much else going for them. (it was a bit much on the MLGS and Clay though)

    I think the biggest balance issue currently is walking speed. Mid roll isn't the problem, it's mid walk. anyone fast walking with a spear against you mid or fat walking without one is a no win situation, no matter how well you play you can only win that fight if he makes a mistake.
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:26 pm

    Jansports wrote:I actually think poise is a great mechanic.
    Well that just about sums you up, doesn't it?


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by GenericUsername on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:56 pm

    I think that hybrid builds are just awful. Mages for example, their magic being crazy overpowered can still be dodged. But then at a certain point they realize that their magic isn't working, so surprise surprise they manage to pull out and one hand any greataxe and beat you to a damn pulp with it.

    Just looking at the names and descriptions of how " perfect " custom builds are, I think you can easily tell people are just buffing whatever they need to get rid of any weakness and just become a god.

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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Desenrascano on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:26 am

    I have to admit, I am really surprised by the responses in this thread. It seems this community is really good.

    Any other community and this thread would have been inundated with "learn 2 play noob lol" and stuff. So, good to know that people here are nice. Especially since I've got a few thousand PvP battles worth of experience under my belt in both this and Demon Souls.

    It seems no one has misinterpreted my "whine" as "Dark Souls PvP is the most imbalanced piece of **** ever!" which is good too. Mostly it's fine, but there are obviously issues.

    In terms of there being a large variety of builds out now, I think it's possible that due to the hammer/scissors/paper nature of PvP that "optimal" isn't figured out. So you have a lot of players trying to create an optimal build as that is effective against everything, and everyone has their own idea of what "optimal" is. Because PvP isn't exactly mathematics, you can't really calculate optimal.

    Does that mean there isn't an optimal build? Of course there are. There are optimal builds, but they just can't be proven to be optimal. Optimal builds are still going to lose, but they win against the most builds. It would be foolish to think there are builds out there that don't fit that criteria. And I can personally guarantee that any optimal build is going to be hybrid or spellcaster, most if not all with have a large focus on dark magic.


    Last edited by Desenrascano on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Jansports on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:48 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Jansports wrote:I actually think poise is a great mechanic.
    Well that just about sums you up, doesn't it?

    Does it? Is my opinion on the concept of a stat that reflects the hardiness of yourself and your armor so overwhelmingly prominent that it over shadows other aspects of my gaming persona?

    Poise ideally presents the player with options, be fast and get stunned by a stiff wind. or be varying degrees of slower and be able to to withstand different hits to varying success.

    I mean DWGR kinda spit on the concept of "trade off" and even now Wolf/FaP diminish the potential for meaningful trade offs when optimizing, but the concept of a measurable stat exclusive to armor that allows to to take more(or less) hits before being interupted is interesting design philosophy to me.

    I mean we could always go back to Push Locking
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by The Letter X on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:56 am

    I personally think poise would be perfect if there was no Wolf Ring, RoFaP, or any other way of raising your equip load.

    Don't get me wrong, I use both Wolf and FaP, but I'd rather have the slight unbalance we have now over 0 poise at all. I'd rather not have us all running around like a bunch of sissies that are scared to take a hit. And nothing against anyone who likes Demon's Souls' no poise system, I just feel that the combat is too stop and go compared to Dark Souls.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Sevans on Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:51 am

    Like Jansports pointed out above me, I would like to see some kind of forced trade off when creating characters. If they're going to have something as strong as the poise mechanic in the game, then there needs to not be things like DWGR and RoFaP. Or at least design high poise armors to be heavy as hell so that it essentially demands a much slower roll.

    As far as the Ring of Fog goes; I don't understand why you would build a series with combat that revolves around a lock-on mechanic, then make an item that just throws it out the window. Not a good idea. Unfortunately FromSoft took the balancing low-road and just made it useless to please people.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:20 am

    Jansports wrote:
    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    Jansports wrote:I actually think poise is a great mechanic.
    Well that just about sums you up, doesn't it?

    Does it? Is my opinion on the concept of a stat that reflects the hardiness of yourself and your armor so overwhelmingly prominent that it over shadows other aspects of my gaming persona?

    Poise ideally presents the player with options, be fast and get stunned by a stiff wind. or be varying degrees of slower and be able to to withstand different hits to varying success.

    I mean DWGR kinda spit on the concept of "trade off" and even now Wolf/FaP diminish the potential for meaningful trade offs when optimizing, but the concept of a measurable stat exclusive to armor that allows to to take more(or less) hits before being interupted is interesting design philosophy to me.

    I mean we could always go back to Push Locking
    Nothing wrong with pushlocking.

    Poise on the other hand is ****. There's a lot more to PvP than making decisions when building your character.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Fossil on Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:29 am

    I don't think things like the Wolf Ring would necessarily be bad if poise scaled differently. If the scale was much larger and you had breakpoints at say 100, 150, 200, 250 then the Wolf Ring wouldn't be as unbalanced. It would allow you to get a little bit of extra poise to the next breakpoint, but you wouldn't be able to leapfrog them.

    Look at something like the Paladin armor. It has 52 poise which is not only annoying, but stupid because if you put on the Wolf Ring you're gonna go way past the breakpoint at 53 and past the one at 76.

    That's the same problem with DWGR. It gave you a roll even better than fast roll, without much sacrifice.

    Things like RoFaP are dumb because they're just too good. It's not even overpowered, it just simply makes the game less interesting because it's so good for PvP that 90% of players are going to use it.


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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by Spurgun on Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:04 pm

    GenericUsername wrote:I think that hybrid builds are just awful. Mages for example, their magic being crazy overpowered can still be dodged. But then at a certain point they realize that their magic isn't working, so surprise surprise they manage to pull out and one hand any greataxe and beat you to a damn pulp with it.

    Just looking at the names and descriptions of how " perfect " custom builds are, I think you can easily tell people are just buffing whatever they need to get rid of any weakness and just become a god.

    Something that you should keep in mind when talking about this is soul level. If you fighting at 120+ or higher, then you should expect that most builds will be hybrid. Simply because diminishing returns make it waste of points to raise any stat above 40-50 (only exceptions are vit and end, but that's onjly for specific builds.

    So yeah, if you're fighting at higher levels then that's common. But fight at 100 or lower (I prefer 80 myself) and hybrids are not overpowered at all. What they gain in damage and options (spells, miracles) they lose in vitality and endurance, it's a fair trade-off.


    TL;DR : Soul level makes a huge difference when talking about balance. For example, elemental weapons can be ridiculously overpowered at low soul levels, but they just as underpowered at higher ones.
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    Re: Discussion about overall balance design

    Post by WandererReece on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:47 pm

    Spurgun wrote:TL;DR : Soul level makes a huge difference when talking about balance. For example, elemental weapons can be ridiculously overpowered at low soul levels, but they just as underpowered at higher ones.

    Actually, I think they are overpowered even at higher levels (Actually it depends how high we're talking)

    At 120 ish they are still overpowered. They only require base stats for max damage.

    They will out perform a +15 weapon with 40 str / dex and match a crystal weapon at 40 str / dex. (Chaos will out perform crystal at 10 humanity.)

    The only thing thats more powerful is a normal / crystal weapon with minimum stats with a weapon buff at 30 int / fai or a +15 weapon at 70 / 90 str / dex.

    Yes, I do hate elementals with a passion.

    Also, the RoFaP and the wolf ring are a little overpowered, but I don't think they are game breaking.

    I know the RoF was overpowered, but look at it from From's point of view. If you can't see the enemy, then how can you target lock him?


    Last edited by WandererReece on Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total


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