I see why Faith is useless...

    Share
    avatar
    Seignar
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1206
    Reputation : 106
    Join date : 2012-08-07

    I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Seignar on Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:55 pm

    So I have a build, this build.
    What happens when I use Great Heal and get a full heal? The opponent heals after they backstab me while I was recovering. What happens if I use TWoP? People say I'm "cheap". What happens if I theoretically cast TWoP and WoG while they are affected by a spell that could easily be punished or avoided? I'm a big tryhard! What if I dedicate points to FAI and STR to use Stone Greatsword and WoG for a more safer method? I'm the biggest tryhard ever.

    The point is that FAI is useless because 2 of its best abilities (Great Heal and TWoP) are often softbanned from dueling. So FAI builds are practically forbidden or discouraged from using their healing and slow nerf. This, in turn, actually affects other "useless" builds.

    STR builds, with their slowness, are completely outmatched in PVP due to backstabs. A STR player is going to lose to a DEX character of equal skill. STR have the answer, TWoP. They can account for their slowness and they even have Stone Greatsword for a quicker method. At what cost? Mobility. Seems like a trade-off.

    Tanks have great heal. They can account for their slowness with survivability. They can add to that survivability with healing. They can use the fear factor of "don't be careless" of STR weapons to make opponents be hesitant so they are more likely to pull if off. They also can use Stone Greatsword to make an impenetrable wall that will let them be very likely to get that heal!

    There problem is NO ONE wants them to! You are considered to have broken the honor codes by using any form of TWoP or healing miracles. Maybe if people could read the obvious signs of a giant green blade they could have been more careful and tried to pressure better so they could punish it and back off. Maybe if they simply have invested around 5 points to INT or ATT, they could have placed a Great Soul arrow to kill healers, or better yet, a GC for the quick finish. Maybe if people weren't so foolish as to let their opponents finish their castings, they wouldn't be complaining the user was being "cheap".

    But no, we have to ban it. I don't see people banning Dark Bead for it being a 1-hit or mages in general. We have to ban 2 great moves that help FAITH and STRENGTH builds be more competitive, all because of gankers and the foolishness of thinking that healing with a miracle is the same thing as popping humanity or Estus. Yeah, it ain't fast or a guaranteed heal...

    But, let's end this rant here.
    It really came to me after I noticed people started healing after I either used miracle healing or tried to pull TWoP. The biggest reason certain builds are useless or other builds are top-tier is because of the "honor" restrictions that the community seems to be forcing upon itself. Ninja flipping is completely pro because no one wants to use TWoP. STR builds are too unreliable because none of them decide to use Stone Greatsword to compensate.

    I don't know, what do you think about this? I know some of you are totally fine with this, but 30% of my fights usually end with me breaking the honor code.

    avatar
    Ghadis_God
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2290
    Reputation : 120
    Join date : 2012-05-27

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:12 pm

    Faith isn't useless at all. I roll useful faith and Str builds without using TwoP or Great Heal. Also, have you seen how many faith builds there are in PvE play, or how many Sunbros use Faith? It's incredibly common, and incredibly useful for what they want to do at least. Why don't you just play the way you want to play without worrying about what people may say about you?


    _________________
    7:eye-death: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t22607-children-of-the-grave-now-recruiting#472079 :eye-death:             

    PSN accounts: Ghadis_God
                         ringo_mogire_SZS
    avatar
    Seignar
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1206
    Reputation : 106
    Join date : 2012-08-07

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Seignar on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:17 pm

    FAI is considered most useless because it only has a handful of viable spells. In PvE it is awesome, as I had owned with a FAI build, but this thread is being spoken in a PVP aspect (hence the PVP section). I'm not worrying about what people say about me, I roll how I want in duels and invasions alike, but I like pointing out why the FAI magic path is weaker because of people's honor codes. I do hate that the second I roll how I want, people decide to put me at a disadvantage by estusing or humaniting; you know, not getting a real fair fight?


    Last edited by Seignar on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

    avatar
    WhatDoesThePendantDo?
    Duke's Archivist
    Duke's Archivist

    Posts : 11501
    Reputation : 327
    Join date : 2012-04-18
    Age : 28
    Location : WPB, Florida

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:18 pm

    Heal miracles are perfectly fine in my book. If you're able to get it off, it's on your opponent not the healer.

    avatar
    Ghadis_God
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2290
    Reputation : 120
    Join date : 2012-05-27

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:52 pm

    Cast TwoP and then Great heal. It'll stop you from being backstabbed. Faith is mostly a defensive/support magic, it doesn't and shouldn't have too many offensive spells, but that doesn't make it useless in PvP. I have a SL100 Fai/Str that I've had great success with using more of the defensive spells rather than going on the offense with twop, SLB, wog, etc. Try things like Great Magic Barrier, Replenishment, etc, with one Wog to tack on some damage or dead angle a turtle.


    _________________
    7:eye-death: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t22607-children-of-the-grave-now-recruiting#472079 :eye-death:             

    PSN accounts: Ghadis_God
                         ringo_mogire_SZS
    avatar
    Ghadis_God
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2290
    Reputation : 120
    Join date : 2012-05-27

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:55 pm

    Here, this is my build. http://tinyurl.com/cd6he5w Totally viable.


    _________________
    7:eye-death: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t22607-children-of-the-grave-now-recruiting#472079 :eye-death:             

    PSN accounts: Ghadis_God
                         ringo_mogire_SZS
    avatar
    Seignar
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1206
    Reputation : 106
    Join date : 2012-08-07

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Seignar on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:09 pm

    Not too sound mean or anything, but, the difference between your build and mine is that yours is fast rolling and using an axe. Mine is fat rolling using a slow greataxe.

    Cast TwoP and then Great heal. It'll stop you from being backstabbed.
    I've done that, but it isn't the point. The point is that once I do, the opponent uses either Estus or humanity; immediately, I've lost my advantage. Also, that isn't foolproof, I've had someone literally run into the TWoP and backstab me while I was healing.

    Also, I don't think you're getting the message of the thread...

    avatar
    Ghadis_God
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2290
    Reputation : 120
    Join date : 2012-05-27

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Ghadis_God on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:23 pm

    To most people, healing is healing, regardless of how one does it. Try the Replenishment miracle. It won't heal as much, but it's more likely that your opponent won't flask because of it. Just buff with it before the battle. Sadly, not every spell in the game was created or balanced for PvP, From didn't desogn the game like that. There are a lot of spells in Sorcery that are quite useless in PvP for the same reason, like Magic Shield and such. If you really care about viability, don't find find something and try to make it work, try to find something that works.


    _________________
    7:eye-death: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t22607-children-of-the-grave-now-recruiting#472079 :eye-death:             

    PSN accounts: Ghadis_God
                         ringo_mogire_SZS
    avatar
    WhatDoesThePendantDo?
    Duke's Archivist
    Duke's Archivist

    Posts : 11501
    Reputation : 327
    Join date : 2012-04-18
    Age : 28
    Location : WPB, Florida

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:39 pm

    Very well said, Ghadis.

    avatar
    Steel Dragon74
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 266
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2012-10-13

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Steel Dragon74 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:46 pm

    Seignar
    I have no problem with either of those (mabey a little for WoG/TWoP spam)
    However those are by no means the be all and end all of Faith builds, in fact I almost never use them for my faith builds
    Also faith is not the weakest magic, Faith can dish out some very serious damage if you use it right
    And finally if you keep getting crap from people go to the forest where half the people use those spells

    Ghadis
    More than half of the Faith spells are offensive, how can faith be considered defensive when you have things like emit force, WoG, GLGSD, the lightning spear family and the two strongest weapon buffs in the game?


    _________________
    You can Run....
    You can Hide....

    But know that you can never escape
    Know that you are only delaying your end
    Know that we will find you

    Because of your choice
    You chose to be a Ganker
    Now you will pay the price

    Because you cant Flip anymore

    Raven of the Great Wolf
    avatar
    ChizFreak
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2388
    Reputation : 135
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Location : Eye of Terror

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by ChizFreak on Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:20 pm

    If you think TWoP is one of the 2 best miracles you're already wrong.


    _________________
    ChizFreak
    A.K.A
    The Ninja Assassin - 1st Leeroy Cosplayer
    Master Backstabber - Daddy Long Legs


    PSN ID: ChizFreak - Steam ID: ChizFreak - YT: http://www.youtube.com/user/ChizFreak
    avatar
    sparkly-twinkly-lizard
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3627
    Reputation : 144
    Join date : 2012-01-19
    Age : 23
    Location : World 4-2 Demon Souls

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:26 pm

    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=269583621553171638
    heres my planned str faith build for the chaos legion, that club is evil when two handed, hence why im okay with less str. and the large leather shield is amazing, 91% phys 35% magic 60% fire and 60% lightning at 65 stability for 1.5 pounds!

    as for a great axe... which one are you using? if its the regular one... get something else,
    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=316023506250473010


    _________________
    ლ(ಠ_ಠლ) (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Rynn on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:30 am

    I have a pure faith build concentrating on offensive faith spells.
    I made it only recently, and I'm shocked at how much face it wrecks.
    avatar
    lextune
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 822
    Reputation : 26
    Join date : 2012-01-17

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by lextune on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:01 am

    Is this a joke?


    _________________
    XBL GT: lextune

    A Bunch of My Builds
    avatar
    raecor14
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1080
    Reputation : 37
    Join date : 2012-06-21
    Age : 21
    Location : Australia

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by raecor14 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:06 am

    faith is awesome, now that magic has dark bead i don't think anyone has the right to complain about TWOP or WOG


    _________________
    #Edon'tbanme
    avatar
    Espada Muerta
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 83
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-10-21
    Age : 37
    Location : Anor Londo

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Espada Muerta on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:03 am

    My faith build wrecks any kind of mage no matter what they are using! This thread is pure madness! Faith can dominate all in the right hands. Mages are a JOKE to me. Great Magic Barrier, Wrath of the Gods, Karmic Justice, Dark Moon Blade etc the list goes on and this is just PvP...WOW! at this...

    avatar
    ViralEnsign_
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 7873
    Reputation : 136
    Join date : 2012-02-18
    Age : 24
    Location : The Executive Members Boardroom

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:11 am

    Espada Muerta wrote:My faith build wrecks any kind of mage no matter what they are using! This thread is pure madness! Faith can dominate all in the right hands. Mages are a JOKE to me. Great Magic Barrier, Wrath of the Gods, Karmic Justice, Dark Moon Blade etc the list goes on and this is just PvP...WOW! at this...

    I hate Mages sooooooo so much, and thats in all games not just DS, every one of those freaks are abominations in the eyes of the Maker and must be put down,.... my point being is the my faith build also wrecks Mage characters.

    I dont use Heal Spells but I do use Rengenerations and some of the more impressive Princess Guard Miracles ( the latter more for PvE and when an invader comes mid way through a co op ) and I find that all of the miracles have some use or another.

    I dont use TWoP often but when I do I care little for someone calling me cheap. Though I RP when I play Dark Souls and my Knightly Knight wont backstab people often.

    My Miracle Set up usually looks like- Replenishment ( for the handy HP regen again any foe), Great Magic Barrier ( All the better to kill mages with), and WoG and Great Lightning Spear.

    In straight Spell vs Miracle Shoot outs I usually win. The Lightning Spear is a gem when it impacts!

    The only trouble I ever have with Faith is how I hate being a good guy and how I alway feel heroic when I use miracles....


    _________________




    PSN- ViralEnsign_

    [[11:09:53 p.m.] Robb "the Ensign_": The sexual tension is enough to blow wyrms head off
    [11:10:04 p.m.] Kwith: Woah.
    [11:10:08 p.m.] Kwith: ..Woah.
    [11:10:14 p.m.] Robb "the Ensign_": FATALITY!
    [11:10:16 p.m.] ◥▶️_◀️◤ TehInfamousAmos: AHAHAHAHAHAHA
    [11:10:19 p.m.] Tolvo: You want to see sexual tension.
    [11:10:20 p.m.] ◥▶️_◀️◤ TehInfamousAmos: BEASTIALITY
    avatar
    Glutebrah
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1942
    Reputation : 102
    Join date : 2012-01-18

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Glutebrah on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:24 am

    the fact is Faith is to strong.

    if everyone rolled faith and used it to its strongest potential, every other build would be useless.

    play the game the way you enjoy it, if that means using TWOP and WOG spam then do it who cares. but i know that isnt fun, that cant be fun for anyone, just sounds boring.


    _________________
    Chaos Blade is Best Blade

    **NEW**PSN: Glute_brah **NEW**
    SL 55 (Ele) http://mmdks.com/2b2g (Avelyn + WP)
    SL100 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/25vk (Chaos Blade)
    SL100 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2b2h (MSGS)
    SL100 (Pyro) http://mmdks.com/2b2l (FIRE)
    SL120 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2n6r (DGA)
    SL120 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/2n6v (murk) i did it, i sold out
    SL150 (Int) http://mmdks.com/25vm (Velkas + TCC)
    SL149 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2q (Black Knight)
    SL200 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2j (Ornstein)
    avatar
    Espada Muerta
    Regular
    Regular

    Posts : 83
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-10-21
    Age : 37
    Location : Anor Londo

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Espada Muerta on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:34 am

    I use Faith to counter mages but my greatest creation uses both Faith and Dark Magic....

    avatar
    PlasticandRage
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 5280
    Reputation : 123
    Join date : 2012-01-27
    Age : 34
    Location : New York

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by PlasticandRage on Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:34 am

    I haven't read this whole thread, only the initial post, so I'm just responding to that here, but there's so much more to FTH than healing spells, TWoP, and WoG. I actually don't even really have a problem with WoG or TWoP, there are just ways to use them that are pretty lame. I have a toon that I equip WoG's on, but I only use three of them, and I don't spam them generally. Usually I use them to punish BS fishing, and the like. I've actually never used a healing spell. With estus and humanity in my inventory there's just such better things to use to fill those attunement slots. Force and Emit Force are both wonderful, and relatively underused spells IMO. I've used both of them a great deal, and had a lot of success, and I don't think either are considered cheap. There's also the two weapon buffs to consider, which I think are both great, as well as VoS and the MB spells. In fact I think the majority of faith spells outside what were mentioned have their uses. Not all of them are my favorite things ever, but I think they're far from useless.


    _________________
    All great men have mustaches.

    TIGER UPPERCUT!

    PSN: PlasticAndRage
    avatar
    Automancer
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1131
    Reputation : 49
    Join date : 2012-10-16
    Location : Somewhere in Asia

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Automancer on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:07 am

    I say, do as you will and not let other people's opinions dictate how you play the game.
    Because unlike those gankers, we're merely using those spells as support that supplements our build's playstyles. That pretty much justifies our usage of the spell.


    _________________
    !Dual-wielder all the way!
    PSN: bluebee898
    http://www.haouform.deviantart.com (Come visit and have fun!)
    avatar
    Sentiel
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3181
    Reputation : 231
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Age : 30
    Location : Mushroom Kingdom

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:37 am

    I used to run a Str/Faith tank in the past.
    I intentionally made it fat roll, so I can't evade and have to block. Mages were my bane as they should, but I got also killed by pretty much everybody else too, which kid of ticked me off.
    All Dex builds simply evaded my attacks and backstabbed me and mages just spammed me to death.

    How to deal with it?
    Use your Miracles!
    You have them for that very reason!

    Is your opponent fast and likes to roll around?
    TWoP.

    Does he like to cast magic?
    GMB/VoS.

    Is he using ranged attacks?
    Lightning Spears, Greatbow and some weapons have long range attacks, especially Dragon Greatsword works well vs Casters.

    I'm trying to say, that you always have means to deal with every situation, don't refrain from using them for any reason. They're not glitches, hacks, bugs, or anything. They don't on shot everything in 5 km radius around you.

    If I see someone cast TWoP, I can...
    Flee and wait for it to run out and try to get close to punish any attepmts to cast it again.
    Switch to ranged attacks.
    Take out a bigger weapon, that can stunlock, like Zwei, put on some Poise and go macho battle.
    Use AoE to keep opponent away.
    Cast TWoP myself.

    So where is the problem with TWoP, or any other spell?
    It's in you Point Forward , who can't fight against it and are lazy, or unable to find a way to do so.
    They are not cheap.
    People are cheap.
    Instead of learning to fight against something, they keep complaining and tell you not to use it.
    Why let them dictate your playstyle and what you can and cannot do?
    Why let them get an easy win?

    tl:dr?
    Ignore hatemail, do what you want to do, not what others tell you to do. The game permits everything and gives it to you for that exact reason.

    PS: When you crouch to cast, you can get easily headshoted by throwing knives and crossbows. Damage aside, it will stop your casting, no matter your Poise.

    avatar
    Halicarnassis
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 718
    Reputation : 15
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 42
    Location : Dark EngeLando!

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:37 am

    I love faith builds! Fai/Vit, Fai/Dex, Fai/Str!!!
    Sorry but I don't sacrifice my play style for whiney little princesses who can't use their spells when I cast VoS or force. Stick to your guns dude.
    (My two pennies worth)


    _________________
    DMB vs SLB.. results here -  bit.ly 153iRJV
    PSN ID: Halicarnassis Twitter: @Halicarnassis
    Tweets by @Halicarnassis

    LunarFog wrote:"The Moon Pit" seems like someplace naughty I would go to see buff men swinging their junk.
    avatar
    Saturday-Saint
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 961
    Reputation : 48
    Join date : 2012-12-09
    Age : 25

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:54 am

    What idiot softbans healing miracles.


    _________________
    Joking aside.
    avatar
    Steel Dragon74
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 266
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2012-10-13

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Steel Dragon74 on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:24 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:the fact is Faith is to strong.

    if everyone rolled faith and used it to its strongest potential, every other build would be useless.

    play the game the way you enjoy it, if that means using TWOP and WOG spam then do it who cares. but i know that isnt fun, that cant be fun for anyone, just sounds boring.

    If we all rolled anything at full effect things would be simiar to what they are now

    As to how we all hate mages I say "Burn the witch" and "Kill it with fire"because my new Pyro/Reaper/God build does just that
    I love the smell of crispy fried mages in the morning, or any other time of day for that matter


    _________________
    You can Run....
    You can Hide....

    But know that you can never escape
    Know that you are only delaying your end
    Know that we will find you

    Because of your choice
    You chose to be a Ganker
    Now you will pay the price

    Because you cant Flip anymore

    Raven of the Great Wolf

    Sponsored content

    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:02 am