I see why Faith is useless...

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    Seignar
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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Seignar on Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:50 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:What idiot softbans healing miracles.
    Over 50% of the duelist in the Burg, from my experience...
    Maybe I was having a bad day...where do you people PVP? The response I get from forums is vastly different from the responses I get in-game.

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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:05 pm

    I typically PvP in the Burg unless I'm setting up duels. Didn't know people softban healing miracles there, since I don't use them. I guess I am not surprised, though. That place is a scrub hive.


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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Seignar on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:43 pm

    They softban Stone Greatsword there too. Well, there goes 18 perfectly good weight...
    But no, seriously what are your SL? All I'm getting are:

    1) People healing cause I used Great Heal or Stone Greatsword
    2) People hating cause I beat them with any of the above

    Next thing I know I won't be able to duel because they'll BC out. People's opinions will matter in the long run because duels will be hard to come by then...

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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:54 am

    Seignar wrote:They softban Stone Greatsword there too. Well, there goes 18 perfectly good weight...
    But no, seriously what are your SL? All I'm getting are:

    1) People healing cause I used Great Heal or Stone Greatsword
    2) People hating cause I beat them with any of the above

    Next thing I know I won't be able to duel because they'll BC out. People's opinions will matter in the long run because duels will be hard to come by then...
    I can understand banning Stone Greatsword, because it can be used to do a very nasty glitch.

    That aside, if you're using GMB/VoS/Replenishment/KJ/PW etc, which are all self buffs and TWoP effect of the Stone Greatsword, you're effectively casting two self buffs on you at once.

    This not only isn't fair in my opinion, or probably in opinion of anyone on the receiving end of this, but it's also impossible to fight against.

    Only option is to run away, but unlike TWoP, you can do the Stone Greatsword version indefinitely, as it never runs out of casts. You can repair the sword while being protected by the buffs effects. If the user is light weight, runnig away and using ranged attacks isn't really possible.

    The user of these, unless tank himself, can roll BS and spell spam anyone to death and they can't do anything about it, if used properly.

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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by ChaosMoogle on Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:34 am

    Alas, as with much of this game the problem isn't with Faith itself, but within certain corners of the community, which is what I take Seignar to mean as well. I think it's to be expected however, as a lot of the PvPers are used to min-maxed-within-an-inch-of-their-life builds, as well as people using truly cheap tactics, and aren't necessarily used to a somewhat gimped build, or will be willing to make concessions to someone trying to avoid being constantly roll-backstab fished because they are using a big strength weapon and fat rolling (I once got downrep/hatemail from someone who couldn't backstab me because I was fighting on the Anor Londo bridge, as an example).

    When someone casts a spell like TWoP, you never know what they are going to follow it up with; they may also have Dark Bead/Chaos Storm/CSS/ 3 stacks of WoG and not everyone is equipped with an all-powerful Greatshield to counter such things. You may know yourself that you aren't going to follow up TWoP with one-shot magic, but your opponent doesn't and so I think that given the usual circimstances surrounding such spells your opponent reverting to 'dishonourable' tactics is somewhat understandable (but not necessarily right).



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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:44 am

    ChaosMoogle wrote:Alas, as with much of this game the problem isn't with Faith itself, but within certain corners of the community, which is what I take Seignar to mean as well. I think it's to be expected however, as a lot of the PvPers are used to min-maxed-within-an-inch-of-their-life builds, as well as people using truly cheap tactics, and aren't necessarily used to a somewhat gimped build, or will be willing to make concessions to someone trying to avoid being constantly roll-backstab fished because they are using a big strength weapon and fat rolling (I once got downrep/hatemail from someone who couldn't backstab me because I was fighting on the Anor Londo bridge, as an example).

    When someone casts a spell like TWoP, you never know what they are going to follow it up with; they may also have Dark Bead/Chaos Storm/CSS/ 3 stacks of WoG and not everyone is equipped with an all-powerful Greatshield to counter such things. You may know yourself that you aren't going to follow up TWoP with one-shot magic, but your opponent doesn't and so I think that given the usual circimstances surrounding such spells your opponent reverting to 'dishonourable' tactics is somewhat understandable (but not necessarily right).

    Actually...
    Unlocked WoG goes through shields, so even those can't protect you in these situations. :mask-father:

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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:57 am

    Jump attacks setinel. Twop is short and it is easy (and sometimes devastatingly effective, especially with larger weapons) to punish or flee with jump attacks. If you let him manage not 1 but 2 self buffs without vaporising him you deserve the loss anyways.


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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:01 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Jump attacks setinel. Twop is short and it is easy (and sometimes devastatingly effective, especially with larger weapons) to punish or flee with jump attacks. If you let him manage not 1 but 2 self buffs without vaporising him you deserve the loss anyways.
    Host can have the buffs on him, or cast them as you spawn, not much to do about that. If it's an invader, then I agree.

    Jump attacks? You mean you would willing jump at someone obviously capable of WoG? He would be fool, not to blast you away.
    Using them to run is like asking for a quick backstab.
    I can't imagine their usefullness in these kinds of situations.

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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:21 am

    Not to escape a bs to dodge spells, and to run out the last few seconds. First flee the area, then jump attack if you're running.

    I am suggesting you jump attack someone with wog, especially if you can get it before they have time to exit the animation. It will always hit hard, and with weapons like the large club it will flatten them, meaning they can't act on you being slow.

    Your own magic is an effective shield as well, its tough to approach and act

    Also, twop has a much lesser effect on weapons like the scythe, zweihander, murakumo, large club ect because these weapons hit hard enough to strongly discourage approaching directly. The really fast weapons like katana can also fend off bs attempts by fighting lock off and pivioting as they swing.

    Its a counter to dex weapon roll pokers, If you're caught for all 10 seconds then you're in trouble, but again, you let them do it.

    Spawn twop is just ganking, which can be done with anything.


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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 am

    Magic of your own works well too, they start a self buff, start fire tempest. See all the good twop does them then, your own wog, gcfb, css, db, mlgs or grant r2s, gc, fire surge and force all do really well too depending on what your opponent tries to do with twop, and the pyromancy requires a 2 point investment, if that. Foce is also a minor investment. 6 points tops.


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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:44 am

    With my Q Pyro, I always either flee and use my bow, use Fire Tempest and don't let them cast TWoP again, or just stand there and wait for a parry.
    Depends on opponents gear and numbers.

    With Int, I just send a CSS in their face, unlock and prepare DB.

    With Faith, I'll spam WoG and wait for an opportunity to use Gravelord Pole Dance.

    But, if he uses TWoP effect of Stone Greatsword and casts VoS, you're f*cked for 20 seconds. Since you can spam Stone Greatsword 2H R2, it's quite annoying to deal with for Dex.

    All my characters are Dex based, so no big weapons for me.
    I guess waiting for a chance to parry is the best, if he uses VoS, or wants to mellee.

    If he wants to WoG smap, I have to do the same. Only way I can think of to fight this.

    I still consider using such methods very cheap though.

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    Re: I see why Faith is useless...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:00 pm

    You don't stand there and let him cast like a lemon. When you see the self buff, any self buff, start you get in his face about it, rush him and start your counter measures. It must be dealt with proactively, you act to keep him from acting, stunns like force or wog work best imo but pure damage will do it well.

    Vos is slow, if you see twop start (in either form) immediately going offensive with magic will almost garuntee he won't get the time to cast it before twop runs out.

    Stacked self buffs are brutal, but so easily preventable in most cases that its laughable to try.


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