Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

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    Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:42 pm

    I was writing a list of questions today trying to organize the way I think about the lore of DS when I wrote something that really stuck with me. The Primordial Serpents… why are there two different serpents telling you two different things? Both of them are misleading you obviously…. So I asked myself, what do they gain in either situation? And then it hit me…It’s like the wheel of fate… I think these guys feed off of souls of the dead and in the current situation they are not getting the amount of souls they want (they represent greed as it is right?). Undead meaning immortal, meaning the way things are now the soul flow is stagnate. So it doesn’t really matter to them weather the age of fire continues or the age of dark. Maybe they even disagree on which age would give them the most souls which is why they both push in different directions. One is pushing the re-use of the Lords Souls while one seems to push the use of the Dark Soul… Maybe it’s a flavor preference? Either way after beating the game and collecting all of those souls you sure would make a tasty treat for these guys… lol!
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by X-government-agent on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:36 pm

    Their true motivates confuse me as I can't put it together in my head and also why their is lots of serpants at the end of the game when u get the dark lord ending


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Wilkinson3424 on Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:37 pm

    Kaathe: Your his pawn, he wants you to kill gwyn for him so he can live in his dark basement and play WoW

    Frampt: He wants to get his tan on so he tells you to burn yourself alive, without actually telling you your gonna die.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Ghadis_God on Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:10 pm

    I consider them to be like a Hydra. They both introduce themselves as the primordial serpent, and when you choose the Dark Lord ending, they all bow down to you despite you not being introduced to that many. So Frampt and Kaathe legitimately have different motivations, but they're part of the same being. The fact that they don't interfere directly is because the heads disagree, each head really can only talk to and try to convince the Chosen Undead to side with him.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:35 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:I consider them to be like a Hydra. They both introduce themselves as the primordial serpent, and when you choose the Dark Lord ending, they all bow down to you despite you not being introduced to that many. So Frampt and Kaathe legitimately have different motivations, but they're part of the same being. The fact that they don't interfere directly is because the heads disagree, each head really can only talk to and try to convince the Chosen Undead to side with him.

    I’ve only recently heard the Hydra theory and it does seem possible. When the game first came out and before I saw the Dark Lord ending, I always thought they were the same person only lying and saying they were 2 different entities. Every time I think about the Primordial Serpents, it just really reminds me of the Elder god in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver manipulating everyone since the beginning of time just to keep himself fed.
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by XuitusTheGreat on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:05 pm

    my thoughts on this arent 100% clear but heres a stab.

    Note: contains dlc lore and thus is spoiler filled happy

    Spoiler:
    my personal feeling is that the primordial serpants (not just kathe and frampt) are creatures of the abyss and as such want the abyss to extend and slowly encompass the word. We have seen in the dlc that Manus (assumed the pygmy) can create abyss and spread darkness. If the pygmy is the original dark lord it is not a stretch to assume the chosen undead to takes the place of Manus would propitiate the abyss as well. With this in mind than not only does Kathe desire this so does Frampt. ahhh but there's the rub Frampt leads you to linking the fire, thus delaying the dark and possible spread of the abyss, so whats his angle? by stopping Gwyn and all of his followers you do exactly what Kathe desires as well , showing the linked desires of both prominent serpents (outside of the obvious dark ending). When you link the fire you burn up and extend the age of fire, but by doing this you remove the possibility of the age of fire continuing on. A means to an end so to speak, both serpents have their method to the age of dark, one just way more round about than the other. Ok so we have end game motives but what about when the game began? these ARE primordial serpents after all, they were there for the great Lords battle with the dragons. The opening says it themselves with light (flame) came dark (abyss) I feel that the serpents are dragons who were corrupted by the abyss or even had human souls fused to them (by the pygmy?)

    there are probably holes in my theory but it all sounds sane in my head lol
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:41 pm

    XuitusTheGreat wrote:my thoughts on this arent 100% clear but heres a stab.

    Note: contains dlc lore and thus is spoiler filled happy

    Spoiler:
    my personal feeling is that the primordial serpants (not just kathe and frampt) are creatures of the abyss and as such want the abyss to extend and slowly encompass the word. We have seen in the dlc that Manus (assumed the pygmy) can create abyss and spread darkness. If the pygmy is the original dark lord it is not a stretch to assume the chosen undead to takes the place of Manus would propitiate the abyss as well. With this in mind than not only does Kathe desire this so does Frampt. ahhh but there's the rub Frampt leads you to linking the fire, thus delaying the dark and possible spread of the abyss, so whats his angle? by stopping Gwyn and all of his followers you do exactly what Kathe desires as well , showing the linked desires of both prominent serpents (outside of the obvious dark ending). When you link the fire you burn up and extend the age of fire, but by doing this you remove the possibility of the age of fire continuing on. A means to an end so to speak, both serpents have their method to the age of dark, one just way more round about than the other. Ok so we have end game motives but what about when the game began? these ARE primordial serpents after all, they were there for the great Lords battle with the dragons. The opening says it themselves with light (flame) came dark (abyss) I feel that the serpents are dragons who were corrupted by the abyss or even had human souls fused to them (by the pygmy?)

    there are probably holes in my theory but it all sounds sane in my head lol


    I disagree with some of the things you say, the main thing being that
    if you do what Frampt suggests it would still end up doing what both serpents
    want. I think they truly disagree for some reason or another. However, most of what you said I agree with
    and I was just about to post this!



    I was sharing some of my speculation about the Darksign and Dark Soul
    in the thread http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t12384-that-one-line-from-solaire
    when Wade Wilson made a comment which made me look up some item descriptions. I
    looked up the description for Humanity first off which is



    "Rare tiny black sprite
    found on corpses. Use to gain 1 humanity and restore a large amount of HP.

    This black sprite is called humanity, but
    little is known about its true nature.

    If the soul is the source of all life, then
    what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?"



    I normally overlook that they call humanity a “sprite” more than once
    in the item description. That could mean
    fairy but I won’t try and go that route it more than likely just means soul.
    But then I started to think of what Humanity does when you use it as an item.
    One really important thing it does and really one of the only reasons people
    stack it is for the increased item drop rate. I’ve been doing a lot of talking
    about the serpents, their intentions, and relationships between the Lords Souls
    and Dark Soul lately so I’m in a frame of mind that is trying to connect
    things, so this could be way off base but here we go.



    Covetous Gold Serpent ring


    "The serpent is an
    imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead. Its habit of devouring prey

    even larger than itself has led to an
    association of gluttony. This gold ring, engraved with

    the serpent, boosts its wearer's item
    discovery, so that more items can be amassed."



    From what I’ve seen it pretty much accepted that the “imperfect dragon”
    that this ring references are the Primordial Serpents. If that’s the case could
    this be a link between the Dark Soul (Humanity) and the Serpents? What would
    that even allude to? Are the Serpents and the Dark Soul directly related, as in
    did one create the other? Moving on….



    Symbol of Avarice


    "Monsters head
    resembling a treasure chest. Once an ancient god, it is said this is the symbol
    of shame imposed on a long lost clan, exiled for the sin of avarice.

    Wearing this slightly raises soul absorption
    and item discovery, but also affects its wearer with the curse of the
    branded"



    This item description really got me thinking too… An ancient god,
    Avarice (greed) and then in the same description it says “curse of the branded”.
    What else talks about a brand?



    The Darksign signifies an
    accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day
    lose their mind and go hollow.



    How are these things linked if at all other than pulling
    meaning out of the use of the same words? Maybe this is something worth looking
    into but it could just be another wild goose chase. Thoughts?
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:48 pm

    Continuing my post..

    All of what I was saying yesterday really makes me wonder how the serpents are related to humans in general. Even more interesting in my digging (small DLC spoiler)

    Spoiler:
    When you attack Ciaran she says something along the lines of…. “You Humans… always taking what you please”...


    Is this more of a link to the serpents and the cursed clan? Are humans known for their greed, or gluttony in the souls world?

    Spoiler:
    Also, if you speak to her without the Soul of Artroias She says “Are you human? I forgive you” . Forgive you for what being cursed?
    I could just be pulling at strings here but maybe there is some sort of link between humans, the serpents and the cursed clan….
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:53 pm

    Continuing my earlier post….HEAVY SPECULATION with some facts >=O

    Humanity not only affects item drop rate, it also increases curse resist….. the Darksign and Symbol of Avirace both have some form of “Cursed” in their description. In addition to this, the curse you receive from wearing the Symbol is that of your life being drained…. Life drain is an art used by the Darkwraths to steal humanity (pieces of Dark Soul) for Darkstalker Kaathe.. Life Hunt on the other hand (which drains your life through bleed) is the power of Crossbreed Pricilla.

    On a side note and off topic, if you look in the art book by design works (40 bucks from japan baby) at the picture of Crossbreed Pricilla she’s right next to a picture of an ancient dragon.. When they are side by side like they are in the art book, it seems she has the same type and color fur as the ancient dragon. In addition, the close up on her face makes it seem as if she has white scales… While I was looking up information on the Crossbreed I decided to look up all item descriptions on Xanthous King, Jeremiah. Something I thought was very interesting was the description on his weapon the Notched Whip.

    “Whip with sharp spikes."
    "Only slightly effective against armor and tough scales, but quite formidable against enemies with exposed skin. Also causes heavy bleeding."


    Hmmm, so his weapon isn’t very effective on armor or tough scales. In the intro cinematic all of the “from the dark they came” folks seem to have exposed skin.. Maybe Xanthous was a servant of the dragons, a foreman or self proclaimed King if you will. Is this why Gywn and his gang attacked the dragons? Where they slaves before they obtained their power from the first flame? It would explain why he is in the painted world. Also, it would explain the Symbol of Avarice, the cursed clan being the ones that were working with the dragons known for their greed… humans. Not hard to believe that there were multiple “clans” of humans and there was one in charge by way of force…..So what would happen to that clan that was pushing down the other clans when the war of the dragons was said and done? Well, they’d be cursed of course with the mark of the ancient god of greed. Oh and their King/Foreman? Yeah we’re gonna exile his *** and give him the color of the coward, yellow.

    Also, where else would a servant of the ancient dragons go but to the only known daughter of the almost extinct race. Interesting enough all of his pyromancy spells (chaos spells with exception to Chaos Firestorm) increase in strength with humanity (Dark Soul). An ancient dragon servant using the power of the Dark Soul to strengthen himself? However, because he uses chaos pyromancy , which came long after the fall of the dragons, it kind of takes away from linking anything to that. However, my way to explain that would be, that chaos pyromancy seems to inflict suffering and pain more so than most spells, so perfect for the whipping King. Also, his whip causes heavy bleeding… sound familiar (similar to Lifehunt anyone?)

    Back to my main point though…..So through these item description (Gold Serpent Ring, Symbol of Avarice, Darksign) and what Humanity (The Dark Soul) actually does…. it would seem as if the Primordial Serpents (Imperfect dragons) have some kind of link to the to what the Dark Soul actually is and what their true intensions are…

    All of this being said, it just seems to solidify in my mind that these Serpents are behind it all (obviously). So far as in, I think they helped the original “from the dark they came” folks obtain the Lords Souls. Maybe they did not intend on them finding and/or using the Dark Soul or if they even knew of its existence at the time but once they learned of it they were after it. Frampt seems to hope to destroy it in some way and honestly just because Kaathe is collecting it doesn’t mean he doesn’t want it destroy either. So… they entice the war between Gwyn and the dragons…. But why other than hoping to obtain the Dark Soul or if they had no idea it existed explain that? Gluttony baby! They’ve wanted a taste of these ancient immortal dragons souls for a long time… and finally they scheme their way to it. Then there is that damn pygmy…. They probably had no idea about the Dark Soul until it was found by the Pygmy. So a good question is… when and why did the Pygmy split the Dark Soul into what we see now? Where they close to getting it from him? Was it his final middle finger to them? Spreading the Darksign making people undead (immortal in a way) just so they can’t get those yummy souls they want… I’ve got some ideas from the DLC but I won’t post yet… I need to organize them a little bit better..Well more to come… I’ll have to research some more….
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Dogwelder on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:38 am

    Deathsitexxi wrote:

    I’ve only recently heard the Hydra theory and it does seem possible. When the game first came out and before I saw the Dark Lord ending, I always thought they were the same person only lying and saying they were 2 different entities. Every time I think about the Primordial Serpents, it just really reminds me of the Elder god in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver manipulating everyone since the beginning of time just to keep himself fed.

    Ha, nice call on the Elder God similarity. Man, I love the Legacy of Kain games: an epic narrative told across five games and two console generations. Awesome.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:51 am

    Just a heads up Ghadis with your Hydra idea. When Frampt moves to eat you to bring you to the Altar, the Abyss moves with him. It actually comes up from around him for a second then recedes with him.

    So perhaps you shouldn't think of it as a body in the abyss, but the abyss itself.
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:53 am

    Dogwelder wrote:
    Deathsitexxi wrote:

    I’ve only recently heard the Hydra theory and it does seem possible. When the game first came out and before I saw the Dark Lord ending, I always thought they were the same person only lying and saying they were 2 different entities. Every time I think about the Primordial Serpents, it just really reminds me of the Elder god in Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver manipulating everyone since the beginning of time just to keep himself fed.

    Ha, nice call on the Elder God similarity. Man, I love the Legacy of Kain games: an epic narrative told across five games and two console generations. Awesome.

    Thanks man. My ideas have changed since posting up this thread but! I still make that comparison to the PS and the Elder God. Legacy of Kain games are some of the best story games and I freaking love them lol. I used to write my ideas down about what I thought was going on (before I knew about forums XD). To this day I still use the line "History abhors a paradox" line lol .


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:56 am

    Tolvo wrote:Just a heads up Ghadis with your Hydra idea. When Frampt moves to eat you to bring you to the Altar, the Abyss moves with him. It actually comes up from around him for a second then recedes with him.

    So perhaps you shouldn't think of it as a body in the abyss, but the abyss itself.

    I've see that as well and I think Miyazaki's description of the dark sorceries in his latest interview help explain ALOT more than he intended....
    “Oolacile is a kingdom of sorcery that had been ruined when the
    original story unfolded,” explains Miyazaki. “The additional content is
    set about a hundred years before Oolacile was ruined. In this kingdom,
    the sorceries are peculiar light spells that are different from the
    common ones in the original story.” Oolacile spells from the original
    game tended to be non-offensive and even charming magic – producing
    light, hiding things, disguising yourself. Tricks.

    But in this Oolacile you find ridiculously strong dark magic and
    pyromancies. Sorceries designed to kill in direct, high-damage ways. “As
    one of the main themes of Dark Souls is 'fire and dark', these light
    spells also include darkness that occurred from the gap between them,”
    says Miyazaki. “The darkness leads to the Abyss, which is a keyword this
    time.”
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/02/dark-souls-miyazaki-talks-artorias-of-the-abyss

    Edit: let me clarify. The broken pendant belongs to Manus. it has a vine that comes from Oolacile. Oolacile light sorceries are for....Oolacile spells from the original
    game tended to be non-offensive and even charming magic – producing
    light, hiding things, disguising yourself. Tricks." which could make you quite the Furtive person...Until Darkness gets a hold of you.... Also, I believe this goes to reinforce to us that the beings from the intro that "came from the Dark" where born from the shadow of the first flame and not the first flame itself.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:57 pm

    Too much to read in the morning but, the flow of souls isnt dtagnated. Whenever you kill a hollow you get souls right? So if they did feed off souls they'd be getting a ton more, because everytime a hollow dies they get their feed.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:17 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:Too much to read in the morning but, the flow of souls isnt dtagnated. Whenever you kill a hollow you get souls right? So if they did feed off souls they'd be getting a ton more, because everytime a hollow dies they get their feed.

    Well for one I think that's just a game mechanic and we might be looking to hard at that. If nothing kills the hollow I don't think it dies and if it does die it just comes right back right? I mean a Hollow is just an Undead that has lost it's Humanity and Souls right? Similar to when the player character dies. In the game world (without the lvling up mechanic) this would mean that Hollows are just that with nothing inside of them. But From wouldn't be that mean to us would they? We get nothing for killing them lol. We could also look at it like this, when you rest at a bon fire you are in a way resetting a time loop, just like linking the fire at the end of the game. So in essence you are getting the exact same souls every time you kill those hollows. It wouldn't bring bosses back because like every boss soul tells you "Special beings have special souls" aka they can live beyond the time distortion similar to the player character. Let me know what you think about this it's just the way I think about it.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Shkar on Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:57 pm

    I just thought of a theory on the topic, but before I post it, I would like to know if you think that non-humans can have humanity and actually use it.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:07 am

    Shkar wrote:I just thought of a theory on the topic, but before I post it, I would like to know if you think that non-humans can have humanity and actually use it.

    I think they can have it and we have an example of beings that are not human having it already aka the rats dropping it. Which I've always though was interesting as the Undead curse almost seems like a plague according to some dialogues. As for using it that's a good question. Using it as a sacrifice maybe but otherwise I'm unsure..


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by eduardolee on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:01 am

    I don't think Frampt is deceiving us,he doesn't seem like a bad guy(kaathe).In my opinion,the only reason he appears on the dark lord ending is that,as you became the new dark lord,he didn't have any other option and joined the rest of the bad serpents.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:08 am

    eduardolee wrote:I don't think Frampt is deceiving us,he doesn't seem like a bad guy(Kathe).In my opinion,the only reason he appears on the dark lord ending is that,as you became the new dark lord,he didn't have any other option and joined the rest of the bad serpents.

    I'm not gonna disagree with that =). I will add though that I think that the Primodial Serpents are broken down into 2 groups/clans. The Frampts and the Kaathes. Which is the reason at the end it says that "Frampt and Kaathe serve thee" and yet we see 2 groups of serpents sperated by the lordvessel. THere is a reference to this on the Cadecus Kite Shield on the picture... take a look at it, it's really interesting. Another interesting point... when you look up information about the Cadecus you end up finding some pretty interesting information about Serpent gods of the underworld with human faces....


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by eduardolee on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:19 am

    Deathsitexxi wrote:
    eduardolee wrote:I don't think Frampt is deceiving us,he doesn't seem like a bad guy(Kathe).In my opinion,the only reason he appears on the dark lord ending is that,as you became the new dark lord,he didn't have any other option and joined the rest of the bad serpents.

    I'm not gonna disagree with that =). I will add though that I think that the Primodial Serpents are broken down into 2 groups/clans. The Frampts and the Kaathes. Which is the reason at the end it says that "Frampt and Kaathe serve thee" and yet we see 2 groups of serpents sperated by the lordvessel. THere is a reference to this on the Cadecus Kite Shield on the picture... take a look at it, it's really interesting. Another interesting point... when you look up information about the Cadecus you end up finding some pretty interesting information about Serpent gods of the underworld with human faces....

    I think you may be right about the serpents being in two separate clans,i never thought about it before,just assumed everyone besides Frampt was evil lol


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Shkar on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:26 am

    Deathsitexxi wrote:
    Shkar wrote:I just thought of a theory on the topic, but before I post it, I would like to know if you think that non-humans can have humanity and actually use it.

    I think they can have it and we have an example of beings that are not human having it already aka the rats dropping it. Which I've always though was interesting as the Undead curse almost seems like a plague according to some dialogues. As for using it that's a good question. Using it as a sacrifice maybe but otherwise I'm unsure..

    The rats don't actually "have" the humanity. Sure, they possess the humanity in their body, but its as if it has been rejected. It is lootable, not bonded with the being. It seems to me as if beings can "hold" a soul of another type inside them, but can't "use" it properly. Like having a glass of water and having the water be inside a human body. One is just sitting there, the other is "bonded."

    So, lets look at souls! THere are three types of souls: Regular, Dark, and Special. Regular souls are universal; think of them like energy as a whole. Any kind of being can use them, as its a sort of "neutral" state. Then you have the dark soul, humanity. Humanity appears to be only used by humans, going so far as the only item sources from it aren't human. Indeed, the sources are rats, the pisacas (who are now mindless abominations), and the "baby skeletons," none of whom would I be in a hurry to call "human."

    And then there are the special souls. These special souls are all held by beings who, in one way or another, relate to the War of Ancients. You have Gwyn, who led the revolution. Gwyndolin, his son. Artorias and and Ornstein, Gwyn's knights, who he gave part of his soul too, and Smough, who "joined up" later. You have Quelagg, daughter of the Witch of Izalith. Priscilla, "daughter of Seath." The Moonlight Butterfly and Sif, who were created/associated with Seathe and Artorias respectively.

    These beings aren't human and, indeed, we see that one of them is completely consumed by the dark humanity. As we've seen, beings can't use souls of the wrong type. The rats don't absorb humanity, and can only hold so much. Yet the player is unique; the player can hold and use humanity like a human, but can also use and absorb the souls of the special beings. Yet another point on the scoreboard for, "The player ignores the game rules!!!!"

    Also, as another fact I just thought of, this theory paints an interesting image of the serpents. One serpent hungers for and consumes Humanity, and gives nothing off. Evidently, the humanity is being "absorbed." The other consumes objects and gives off souls. Now, why would a being that's the epitome of greed give something away? Could it possibly be that the serpent can't USE the normal souls, due to having a different kind of soul? Like, say, a DARK soul?


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:10 am

    Shkar wrote:
    Deathsitexxi wrote:
    Shkar wrote:I just thought of a theory on the topic, but before I post it, I would like to know if you think that non-humans can have humanity and actually use it.

    I think they can have it and we have an example of beings that are not human having it already aka the rats dropping it. Which I've always though was interesting as the Undead curse almost seems like a plague according to some dialogues. As for using it that's a good question. Using it as a sacrifice maybe but otherwise I'm unsure..

    The rats don't actually "have" the humanity. Sure, they possess the humanity in their body, but its as if it has been rejected. It is lootable, not bonded with the being. It seems to me as if beings can "hold" a soul of another type inside them, but can't "use" it properly. Like having a glass of water and having the water be inside a human body. One is just sitting there, the other is "bonded."

    So, lets look at souls! THere are three types of souls: Regular, Dark, and Special. Regular souls are universal; think of them like energy as a whole. Any kind of being can use them, as its a sort of "neutral" state. Then you have the dark soul, humanity. Humanity appears to be only used by humans, going so far as the only item sources from it aren't human. Indeed, the sources are rats, the pisacas (who are now mindless abominations), and the "baby skeletons," none of whom would I be in a hurry to call "human."

    And then there are the special souls. These special souls are all held by beings who, in one way or another, relate to the War of Ancients. You have Gwyn, who led the revolution. Gwyndolin, his son. Artorias and and Ornstein, Gwyn's knights, who he gave part of his soul too, and Smough, who "joined up" later. You have Quelagg, daughter of the Witch of Izalith. Priscilla, "daughter of Seath." The Moonlight Butterfly and Sif, who were created/associated with Seathe and Artorias respectively.

    These beings aren't human and, indeed, we see that one of them is completely consumed by the dark humanity. As we've seen, beings can't use souls of the wrong type. The rats don't absorb humanity, and can only hold so much. Yet the player is unique; the player can hold and use humanity like a human, but can also use and absorb the souls of the special beings. Yet another point on the scoreboard for, "The player ignores the game rules!!!!"

    Also, as another fact I just thought of, this theory paints an interesting image of the serpents. One serpent hungers for and consumes Humanity, and gives nothing off. Evidently, the humanity is being "absorbed." The other consumes objects and gives off souls. Now, why would a being that's the epitome of greed give something away? Could it possibly be that the serpent can't USE the normal souls, due to having a different kind of soul? Like, say, a DARK soul?



    I like the direction you’re going. Let me just add my 2
    cents =) “from the Dark they came” So life sprang from the shadow of the first
    flame. So people say that all life on
    earth came from a Primordial Soup (real world here for a second). Primordial
    being the key word here I believe these Serpents were born in the shadow of the
    first flame and they came first. Now the word Primeval and Primordial are
    similar but they are different, primordial would come before primeval. These
    serpents to me are the physical manifestation of the Abyss. Also, the Dark Soul
    was also born in the shadow of the first flame. So Now I want to talk about
    something that came up in a recent interview I read. I posted it earlier but I’ll
    expound on it here. There is light which came from the first flame, which cast
    a shadow of darkness, where the Dark Soul and Humans were born. However, a
    little farther away from that shadow is something even darker, the Abyss.
    Something that was their before light and shadow, and possibly wasn’t given
    life until after the first flame came into existence. I’m going to quote
    Miyazaki here


    “As one of the main themes of Dark Souls is 'fire and dark',
    these light
    spells also include darkness that occurred from the gap between them,”
    says Miyazaki. “The darkness leads to the Abyss, which is a keyword this
    time.”


    I think Miyazaki gives this away in his description of the
    Dark Sorceries….. It kinda helps you get into his head and see how he looks at
    the world of Dark Souls. So light includes darkness which comes from the “gap
    between them” and darkness leads to the Abyss….. And now we can see where the
    Frampt and Kaathe clan disagree. So what fuels a shadow? Light right? Say you
    put a fire in the middle of Stonehendge, it would cause shadows to come off of
    the pillars no? So what happens if you make the fire bigger? The shadows get
    bigger… stronger. This is what Frampt believes and why he is pushing in the
    direction he is. However, what’s even better than a shadow? Complete and total
    Darkness, and here we have Kaathe. So which form of darkness is more powerful?
    Well here is where the 2 clans debate. And yet, they all come from the same
    place, they are the darkness.

    What do you think? There is more to explain but I always have posts that are wayyyyy too big and want to cut this one down lol


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Shkar on Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:03 am

    The problem with your logic is that shadows aren't in any way different from normal darkness. They aren't "fueled" by light. All a shadow is is a pocket of darkness surrounded by light. The game has a big theme on opposites, and including a third thing to make it "light, dark, and shadow" doesn't fit.


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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by TheLolrider on Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:03 pm

    I was recently reading through item descriptions and I when I read the Covetous Gold/Serpent Rings I noticed something that really jumped out at me.

    "The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead.

    Its habit of devouring prey even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony."

    I couldn't help but think that the the item description refers to the Primordial Serpents. They are certainly gluttonous enough.

    Most of my theories with the Primordial Serpents have to deal with the dragons and stuff, but you guys might have some interesting theories.
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    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:49 pm

    TheLolrider wrote:I was recently reading through item descriptions and I when I read the Covetous Gold/Serpent Rings I noticed something that really jumped out at me.

    "The serpent is an imperfect dragon and symbol of the Undead.

    Its habit of devouring prey even larger than itself has led to an association of gluttony."

    I couldn't help but think that the the item description refers to the Primordial Serpents. They are certainly gluttonous enough.

    Most of my theories with the Primordial Serpents have to deal with the dragons and stuff, but you guys might have some interesting theories.

    I actually brought those descriptions up in the 7th comment and did some off the top of my head speculation at the time.


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