Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Share
    avatar
    samster628
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-08-19
    Location : the land of the livid dead

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by samster628 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:49 am

    I think you folks might be right about the frampt and kaathe clans. I think (against common beleif) that BOTH serpent clans want the best for humanity but they both think differently about what is right. The Kaathe can beleve that we should embrace the indevitable darkness and make the best of it. He also beleves on giving humans power (although he overestimates humankind as they will misuse this power). I draw your attention to his handing out the lifedrain and seeming sadness and surprise when the darkwraiths misuse it and fail him.
    Frampt beleves that we should make the age of light last as long as possible. make things as they were without the undead. While this is an admirable goal it will only work short term as eventually the power of the souls will burn out leaving us to the age of twilight (that's what i am calling the time of the undead ruined lordera etc) once again.
    Take your pick. happy world for a few more centureies or so or go into anarchy and corruption hoping someone can sort that mess out into something worthwhile. Ether way once one serpents clan acheves there gouls the other clan will probrably accept it. Call me nieve but i think the serpents are really quite peaceful creatures. When you go against their ideas they could have tried to kill you, but they do not.


    _________________
    *disclaimer* No offence was meant to anyone or anything in this post twistedevil
    avatar
    samster628
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-08-19
    Location : the land of the livid dead

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by samster628 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:24 am

    Having wrote the above i now go on to souls. There are 5 types although the first 3 in this list are all made up of the same thing.
    Lord souls - very powerful souls that grant their users very special powers. These powers really just depend on whet there users marshall the power into. The users of gwyns soul (the gods) create special magics drawing on the power of their fragment of soul, miricles. They will allow you to use their power if you have enough faith in them and pray to them. In general that is. some gods Want you to be in there covenant as well. Nitos soul is also used for miricles in the same way. His soul was also used to create necromancy and this draws from the power of his soul. The witches Used their soul to create fire magic but this was warped into pyromancy after the birth of chaos. while the dark soul is technically a lord soul i am not putting it in this section as it is from the shadow of the flame not the flame itself.
    Base souls - Used as a currency in lorderan they all are essentially like the lord souls (probrably they are tiny tiny fragments of the lord souls) but they have infinatly less power. Like the lord souls they can be held in any vessil that claims them and this are found in any living(ish) creature. When this vessel is destroyed they move to the nearest living one, thats you! They are all seperate and not bound together and there enargy is very limited but if you collect enough their power can be used to etch titanite into things and suchlike but with this enargy consumed the soul is essentially nothing.
    Unique souls - Some powerful creatures have a soul that is bigger (in terms of enargy level) than base souls but much smaller than lord souls. These have a but of the nanture of there previous owner in them and can be used to make special wepons accordingly. if the poerson who has aquires this soul chooses it can be crushed into base souls. oolicilian sorcery calls upon its users soul which i think firs into this catogry.
    Dragon souls - the only souls not born from the flame these souls do not go into nearby vessels but instead dissapate. You get base souls when you kill dragons because of the things they have killed to eat etc. Dragon souls are in the very are but using his fragment of lord soul seath has developed a way to use there souls as soul sorcery. Logan further developes this sorcery.
    The dark soul - born from the shadow of the flame and claimed my the pigmy this soul was at first not at all powerful but as the enargy from the other souls was used up (remember enargy can nether be created not destroyed) this soul grew in power. small amouts of this soul simerlar in size to base souls are in every normal human and much like normal base souls it is not alive. It is used to keep the body alive and functioning as well as being resistant to curses. When the pigmy could no longer control his dark soul it split into even larger fragments which became alive. The pigmy was killed in this split and and eceptionally large humanity sprite controlled his shell of a body and warped it too. When you get a humanity sprite you can crush it into base sized humanity and at bombfires can bid it to you or use it to fuel the fire. Once alive the humanity sprite does not die and will escape if it can. sonetimes in normail humans the humanity comes alive and escapes at death leaving them undead. Humanity can also be marshalled into an offensive sorcery or pyromancy.

    Thats all for now


    _________________
    *disclaimer* No offence was meant to anyone or anything in this post twistedevil
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Shkar on Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:20 am

    In regards to your first point Sam, there is absolutely no way Kaathe thinks he is doing what's best for humanity. Even if he isn't the serpent mentioned in AotA, he would certainly KNOW about it, and Oolacile doesn't seem like the type of hellhole humanity would want to live in.

    For the second, my personal PoV on souls is that there are actually three "types." You have your normal, everyday souls that are the baseline. You have your ascended souls, which are normal souls that reached some precipice and, well, ascended. These would be the special and lord souls (with the flame being the soul of the world, and the biggest one of all). You also have the dark souls, which now means humanity. Now, these souls don't mix, and unless your body is capable of using it, doesn't absorb it at all (unless it can convert it). Our character is human, allowing him to use humanity, and it seems likely that he is some kind of special being, for reasons that have been discussed to death. This would allow him to also absorb and convert the special souls into a usable form.

    And, as an aside, posting this made me come up with a rather interesting theory that I need to think over. An insane theory, but an interesting one...


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    samster628
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-08-19
    Location : the land of the livid dead

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by samster628 on Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:17 pm

    Kaathe may have done that by accident although it is a near certanty that it is he in the dlc.
    in regards to souls you are almost agreeing with me. I have seperated them for purposes of mentioning there seperarate effects and seperate origins but if you want to put them in the same catogry then fine by me.
    Dragon souls are the only thing you don't acknowledge. There is evidence for them. soul sorcery being the prime example. every other magic can be traced back to souls. soul sorcery shows no traits of other souls and the dragon school with its dragon rings is a big point towards dragon souls being the base of this sorcery.


    _________________
    *disclaimer* No offence was meant to anyone or anything in this post twistedevil
    avatar
    Skarectum
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 53
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-11-07
    Age : 25
    Location : Sheffield, UK.

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Skarectum on Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:44 pm

    samster628 wrote:Dragon souls are the only thing you don't acknowledge. There is evidence for them. soul sorcery being the prime example. every other magic can be traced back to souls. soul sorcery shows no traits of other souls and the dragon school with its dragon rings is a big point towards dragon souls being the base of this sorcery.

    This has almost certainly been brought up, but I'm using it in relation to your posts, Sam; could it not be theorised that possession of a unique soul requires quite a level of intelligence? If you look at a list of bosses, the ones which don't have unique souls are typically animalistic. All unique soul bosses show intelligence. Anyway, my point is that I don't think 'Dragon Souls' exist as such. The dragons, and derivatives, we fight are Gaping Dragon, Seath, Kalameet, Hellkite Dragon, the Hydras and, possibly, the Wyverns. None of these give any particular soul, except for Seath, whose was bequeathed to him by Lord Gwyn. Note that he's also the only one shown to possess intelligence.

    As for your comments on sorceries, I think it likely that the Dragon School would just be named after the Everlasting Dragons, if not Seath. I'd guess Seath; seeing as the Everlasting Dragons were pretty much wiped out, naming the school after them seems a little risky! It's presumably fairly widely known that Seath's doing his research up in the Archives, so it wouldn't be too far a stretch to guess that the administration at the School decided to name it in honour of him. As for the rings, I think they're named because they are, simply, rings with dragon crests on them. winking

    Interestingly, the Sanctuary Guardian's soul seems like it can't be used for anything other than consumption, which seems a little pointless (unless there's a hidden use - let's not go into that...) and yet its item description shows it's an intelligent creature, similar to Sif:

    Soul of the white winged lion sanctuary watchkeeper,
    who dreaded the spread of the Abyss.

    Of course, everything's, open to interpretation. That's just my opinion on the matter!


    _________________
    Forest Hunter in training.

    PSN ID: Skarectum

    avatar
    BigHatLongCoat

    Posts : 1
    Reputation : -1
    Join date : 2012-11-27

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by BigHatLongCoat on Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:44 am

    Both serpents want you to kill Gwyn. Gwyn sacrificed himself to rekindle the First Flame. ergo, Gwyn literally became the First Flame, or what was left of it. You kill Gwyn, you put out the Flame of the world, extinguishing all hope. Congratulations, jerkass.
    avatar
    nhbdy
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 119
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2012-02-04

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by nhbdy on Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:55 pm

    BigHatLongCoat wrote:Both serpents want you to kill Gwyn. Gwyn sacrificed himself to rekindle the First Flame. ergo, Gwyn literally became the First Flame, or what was left of it. You kill Gwyn, you put out the Flame of the world, extinguishing all hope. Congratulations, jerkass.
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero
    avatar
    Rudmed
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 770
    Reputation : 20
    Join date : 2012-07-15
    Age : 24
    Location : Let me just look at my.....I forgot the map.

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Rudmed on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:11 pm

    I think Kaathe atleast is trying to recreate the abyss by recreating the dark lord. I think it is fair enough to say Manus is the pygmy and when his humanity went wild when he was distrubed the abyss was a result of that. Then you went and stopped the abyss and yada yada. However, where do we find Kaathe? In the abyss, and what is his goal using the dark wraiths as his pawn? To gather humanity to store it for when the Undead are ready for it.

    How are they going to store humanity...most likely within someone because they can just drain it out of that person and distribute it with the dark hands. With the DLC we discovered what happened when one gets far too much humanity, they go crazy, and assuming Manus was the pygmy (and most likely a Dark Lord) causes the abyss to spread. So I think they are just using you so they can use you as a vessel, then somehow transform you into Manus where the abyss spreads and kills everyone (because if we remember the abyss is fatal to others if it does not corrupt them). That leaves the serpeants with the world under their thumb....this is all of course an idea that may simply be insane.


    _________________
    XBL GT: gguyy

    Join us cursed brothers and sisters and regain the lives you once knew: http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t10229-those-of-cursed-blood-covenant-looking-for-members#212550






    avatar
    samster628
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 278
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-08-19
    Location : the land of the livid dead

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by samster628 on Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:21 pm

    BigHatLongCoat wrote:Both serpents want you to kill Gwyn. Gwyn sacrificed himself to rekindle the First Flame. ergo, Gwyn literally became the First Flame, or what was left of it. You kill Gwyn, you put out the Flame of the world, extinguishing all hope. Congratulations, jerkass.
    i disagree. Although frampt wants the flame out he also wants it relit which makes your point invalid. Thats also not nessecarily all hope being extinguished ether and calling people jerkass really doesnt help your point.
    you are clearly a noob a **** or both and i am saying you are both. Oh and my disclaimer is invalid on this post.


    _________________
    *disclaimer* No offence was meant to anyone or anything in this post twistedevil
    avatar
    Deathsitexxi
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 295
    Reputation : 12
    Join date : 2012-09-07

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:06 pm

    So since posting this a while back my ideas on this have evolved a bit. I’ve posted this in a few places but I have yet to put it in my own thread so here it is….

    It’s my honest opinion that all of the people we meet in game are in some form “human”. Let me explain. In the intro it says “from the Dark they came”, when we hear this we see what looks like hollow-like people standing up. Gwyn, Nito, the Witch, Pygmy, etc are included into this “they”. It’s also key to note when it says dark it puts it in caps in the intro and reads “the Dark”. If we read Artoria’s Armor description it helps clear up what this “Dark” is…

    Helm of Artorias: Helm of Artorias the Abysswalker, one of Gwyn’s four knights. The death of the helm’s owner can be surmised from the corrosive Dark of the Abyss, and the musty azure-blue tassel, once a symbol of pride and glory.

    The corrosive DARK of the abyss is the liquid-ooze like substance that’s all over Oolicile and we can see large masses of it just before we fight the chained prisoner… just take a look at the steps where the Dark Sorcerers were and look to the left and right of it. HUGE puddles of black liquid… Now another hint as to what this is… the Primordial Serpents… Primeval man… These 2 words are similar yet the word Primordial seems to insinuate something deeper…

    Dark ooze=Primordial soup

    Primordial Serpents are in fact a part of the Darkness (the lack of light not the ooze) and were the first to come out of the soup. The Gold Serpent Ring says they are “imperfect dragons” and are associated with greed, and when you attack Ciran what she says is extremely interesting.. “Humans… Always taking what you please” that sounds like she is associating humans with greed as well…

    Gwyn and others (primeval man) came from the same soup as well as humans meaning they are in some way humans that have been enhanced by the power of the souls they received from the First Flame. Going back to what Ciran says…. She calls us “humans” that doesn’t mean she isn’t herself one, but it does make sense that if she does have more “soul power” from hanging out with Gwyn and company that she would believe herself transcended from the term human, and would use it as a cut down even..

    In addition, the races are all in a way related including the Serpents. Hence why they have human-like faces.


    With that being said I still stand behind what I said about there being 2 clans of serpents, Kaathe and Frampt, however; It would seem that the Age of Dark/Man would be befitting this theory as well. If the serpents are actually “primordial man" in a sense, then they are promoting the spread of their influence (kind of an obvious statement there). It could go deeper than that with what I was also saying before, as in they consume souls to survive therefore, the plots always end up with them getting a meal (similar to the Elder God in Legacy of Kain). Each clan has its own idea about how to obtain and control these souls for their consumption and that is where they disagree.



    In addition to this, I believe this has something to do with the way everyone looks when they go Hollow (including the player character). As in, when in hollow form there are patches of skin missing which expose what looks grey, web-like/wormish insides. These insides remind me of what the Fire Keepers Soul looks like. A Fire Keepers souls is just a mass of humanity. With that being said if we compare the 2 and go along thinking the Primordial Ooze theory from above we can say that human beings are just masses of Darkness/Humanity. I say Darkness/Humanity because it is of the belief of many in the Dark Souls community that the Dark Soul was split and that is what the item humanity is.

    If this were the case (humans bodies are composed of masses of humanity) then why do we have to use a consumable humanity to regain our human form? Maybe the grey bits we see are inactive humanity or something that has mutated to form a … solid container for the “Darkness Ooze” that causes one to regain their original form. This would also explain why a Estus Flask keeps you alive. Aestus Estus means heat in latin, therefore; a estus flask contains the heat of a bonfire, which would in turn heat up the hardened “ooze”/humanity inside a person’s body to heal them…


    **Edit: Sam I think he was saying "congratulations Jerkass" in a sense as "Oh you just destroyed the world" and was including himself in that analogy lol. I appreciate the passion you bring to the subjects you post on but I think you may have taken what he said the wrong way =). If I’m wrong then… sorry carry on… lol!


    _________________
    If i could choose to become any animal it would defiantly be a jackass. So that i could fit in with the crowd.
    avatar
    Skarectum
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 53
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2012-11-07
    Age : 25
    Location : Sheffield, UK.

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Skarectum on Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:04 am

    Deathsitexxi wrote:**Edit: Sam I think he was saying "congratulations Jerkass" in a sense as "Oh you just destroyed the world" and was including himself in that analogy lol. I appreciate the passion you bring to the subjects you post on but I think you may have taken what he said the wrong way =). If I’m wrong then… sorry carry on… lol!

    Totally agree, it was a passionate response, but overly so. Poor guy's first post, he makes a throwaway comment about how the PC breaks the world, and he's bad repped for it. Calm, Sam, calm! winking


    _________________
    Forest Hunter in training.

    PSN ID: Skarectum


    Sponsored content

    Re: Primordial Serpents true intensions? (Vanilla Spoilers)

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:08 pm