Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

The 2 behind the wall do not represnet all 7 as we see 3 (possibly all 5) others in game. The dead one at ceaseless's altar, the trainer, the one before the BoC and possibly the 2 roots protecting the BoC.
The power Gwyn adn that found was the power of bonfires. The lord souls and the dark souls are the power of fire and humnaity. the dragons fear and hate the fire, Gwyn used fire to destroy them. If anything the E, Dragon stole the power of fire from gwyn.

DoughGuy wrote:The 2 behind the wall do not represnet all 7 as we see 3 (possibly all 5) others in game. The dead one at ceaseless's altar, the trainer, the one before the BoC and possibly the 2 roots protecting the BoC.
The power Gwyn adn that found was the power of bonfires. The lord souls and the dark souls are the power of fire and humnaity. the dragons fear and hate the fire, Gwyn used fire to destroy them. If anything the E, Dragon stole the power of fire from gwyn.

Brilliant. Your soul is so dark! Haha. I suppose I know far less than I had previously thought.
I see this story unfolding, and I remain convinced that there is something much larger than the 2 endings. Why the heck would someone like me, who never found those corpses, and apparently never even understood the plot, why would I be allowed to achieve "victory"? Im capable of running aroud without a problem not lighting any bonfire, yet I don know there are witch corpses? I HIGHLY doubt that someone would go through the trouble to make a plot line apparent to only insanely dark souls like us, but forget the alternate ending we crave so so badly.

Starting to consider a dual finish alternative to the dual finish. A linking bonfire route through rhea/pendant guidance. Vs an alternative, no bonfire route like my own, wherin one must extinguish all fires through cooperation with the E dragon. Add the people who would try to prevent us from our missions and keep the status quo in Lordran.. Sounds fun.

Maybe I'm wrong. Need more story.

What, kind sir, do you think about Rhea?

She's an archetype of religious zealotry and a parable regarding the folly of blind devotion. She represents the ideal of innocence to contrast the bleak reality that is Lordran. She's done so well that almost universally she is regarded as one of the more tragic stories yet she is one of the only entities who denies the need for humanity and has sacrificed one of the least amounts in the game, save for her companions. The other religious archetypes

DoughGuy wrote:The 2 behind the wall do not represnet all 7 as we see 3 (possibly all 5) others in game. The dead one at ceaseless's altar, the trainer, the one before the BoC and possibly the 2 roots protecting the BoC.
The power Gwyn adn that found was the power of bonfires. The lord souls and the dark souls are the power of fire and humnaity. the dragons fear and hate the fire, Gwyn used fire to destroy them. If anything the E, Dragon stole the power of fire from gwyn.

I agree that the power Gwyn, the Witch and Nito found was that contained in the bonfires. The first flame would seem to be nothing but a huge bonfire. However, while the lord souls and dark souls are the power of humanity, I don't necessarily think flame was the primary power that humans used.

The dragons already had access to some fire magical power; they could breathe fire as we see various forms of their breath during the game. And Gwyn himself actually doesn't use fire - we actually see that fire sorcery was what the Witch and her children used, while Gwyn fought the dragons with lightning spears that had especial power to counter otherworldly forces. Indeed, we are told as much: Gwyn's power was sunlight, and the power of sunlight was said to be similar to lightning - "Lightning spears inflict rare lightning damage, and are very effective against magic, fire, and most of all, dragons." and "In the war that marked the dawn of the Age of Fire, Gwyn wielded these rays of sunlight, which remains fierce even as they fade."

I look at this from a more philosophical perspective: 1) The Lord Souls are about purity which introduces disparity, 2) The Dark Soul is about something unseen that can gain significance and 3) The Dragons are about eternal life and a form of lack of death. The Lord Souls allow godhood to exist, but by bringing this into existence it also brings into existence mortality, since immortality means nothing without it's opposite. In a similar fashion, the Lord Souls are similar to humanity in that they can be divided up and lessened. In short, the Lord Souls are about making the few extremely powerful, but making every one else weaker by their existence, while the Dark Soul, being so highly fragmented and of a different nature seems to allow humanity to become fuel to give people meaning (i.e. reversing their hollow forms) - meanwhile, the possessors of Lord Souls can't actually use humanity, which is why they must trick Undead into making a pilgrimage to provide fuel. There are many subtle hints that indicate such an interpretation: we are told that humanity held no use until the Undead appeared, that certain Miracles such as Homeward Bound act differently for Undead then for others (sending them back to bonfires rather than homelands) and that not everyone can use humanity. It's noteworthy that similar elements appear in the Firekeeper's lore: they are all Undead and disfigured in some way - even the Everlasting Dragon can be said to be Undead because Dragons are not really alive in the same way humans are said to be.

The Dragons themselves are both natural and unnatural - they aren't "alive" per se but they are a part of the natural fabric of the world, however, our understanding of nature involves death and decay, whereas the life cycle of dragons is personified in crystals and scales - continuously growing and existing in one form, but this permanence makes them unable to be shed to allow adaptive evolution. We are told as much when we encounter the Gaping Dragon and look into the lore - it grew so large from eating that it couldn't escape where it was and it's power became a breath that helped it digest things.

Well as this is my first post and it might be a bit off-topic, I'd still like to ask you the following.
You all are aware of the glitch which lets you skip the door at Firelink Altar, right? This glitch could give you the possibility to gather the Lord Souls and carry them over to NG+, wouldn't it?

Btw, interesting forum ! As I'm (somehow) addicted to Dark Souls it fills me with joy to read all your posts/threads :p

I think those Lord Souls act like keys, so they wiped when you NG+. Like if I had looted the Key to the New Londo Ruins in Blighttown on my NG, I would not have it in my inventory when NG+ rolls around.

Mhm, well you might be right. I guess acquiring Lord Souls/Bequeathed Lord Soul Shards just increases a certain variable by "1" which will be set to "0" when getting to NG+.
I'll give it a try as soon as possible.

Every thing in the keys section lraves in NG+ except Master Key if that was your starting gift.

Ok... I read the whole thread, now, first of all Fireless, I think you are cracking a little bit and going hollow, but hey, Thumbs up on your no bonnie run.
I know that it has been tried before, Glyphblade was hunting every secret and I am pretty sure he did all kind of no bonnies run. As we all know, the E. D. is the biggest obstacle.
You said you had not sinned but you killed Eingy already and I am not sure but I think that is considered a sin, and when you kill the firekeepers will sin again.
The other thing I noticed is that it seems like you never went through the dialoges with the NPC'S at all due your lack in the game's lore.
Now, nothing is final regarding the lore of the game and that is one of the great aspects of it, you could come out with your own story at the end.
Now, one question, is the lordvessel considered a big bonfire lited with lord souls? If that is so then you will facing another dilemma.
I want to believe that if there would be something hiding then it would only show up til you finish NG+(x7).
I really wish you good luck on your challenge and I really hope you come up with something, I think we all want to unveil this big mistery about the pendant and the furtive pigmy, although it seems there is any.

Yes, doelker, I do see problems with my particular run! NOO!!! Maybe Alvina was right and I am not the chosen one afterall.. Damn.

I should have planned ALL of this out, before I started. Honestly I thought I was doing a totally insane and impossible mission before I began. So I didnt think much of it. Then, it started working! Everything in the game started clicking, the Coop, seeing you hollows sitting at my unlit bonfires would make me laugh. I would have full health and everything, in the same spot they did and I would think, "suckaz".

So, I made some errors with NPCs. Im not sure of the ramifications of anything bonfire-less! NPC paths, sinfulness.
STILL, there IS an obvious connection between extinguishing flames and kindling them. Lautrec and Rhea. The introductory story. Yes, yes, so nicely it all fits, all the pieces coming together.

BELIEVE PEOPLE! YOU JUST GOT TO BELIEVE! Im starting to think I am the ONLY one who has NOT gone hollow!

Alas, my run probably wont turn up anything new. But there is a chance, especially into NG+. Redo's are inevitable and I have no issue with being unsuccessful on a first attempt. The lore is so much deeper than I had thought.
Regardless of the success of this particular character, and regardless of the hollowing going on, I will continue on searching for an answer.

As for Glyph's attempts, I was left with the impression that he never fully figured out the story. Nor has anybody. The story is going to solve this puzzle. Where they failed, we will succeed.

Rhea is my biggest hurdle in successfully finding the answer to our problems. I think she was Glyph's also.
The -meaning- of the pendant, is what will unravel this mystery (what Rhea is doing with the pendant will help decode that meaning. )

Rhea:
1) If she is so innocent, how does she go from A)Not having pendant, to B)Having the pendant.

From what I can find, Glyph explored this idea in Secrets revealed until he went completely hollow. Personally, I am left with the impression that it was GIVEN to her.
Just because she is a weary traveler after emerging miraculously from ToG.

2) How does she get from place to place? IF she only wants the Rite of Kindling, why is she found in ToG? How does she get out? Moreover, how in the world does she end up in Duke's cell? Can I at least assume that she was in the ToG BEFORE Dukes Archives? Time is distorted in Lordran, but I think I can assume that, because she would have the pendant in ToG or firelink.. (unless she lost it). Damn you Rhea!

***Has anyone gone down to get the Rite before Rhea? I really like this idea. This has been a reoccurring thought since I began this conquest (considering that she is kindling and I am extinguishing).
Perhaps it needs to be done in NG+ or NG++.

If fire=bad and rhea has blind faith, someone could have easily USED her to acquire the rite of kindling for them. Either way, I want to stop it from happening.

Am I the only one that see's this great potential for a dual alternate ending? That would be AWESOME!
IF kindle all bonfires/ Help Rhea IS the alternative to the extinguish bonfire/ Stop Rhea
Lautrec kills a fire-keeper AS Rhea searches for the Rite of Kindling. It just seems so... fitting.

To me, this makes so much sense, but only TEAMWORK is going to solve the problems. I cant do it on my own in this run. I also cant make every possible run for all the possibilities, but if I can spark just ONE change in game behavior, 100s of teenage boys will do the rest for me.

Like I said, I am convinced that a no bonfire run was INTENDED by the creators. The shortcuts and the routes, the items, the coop, the story (from what I can tell), it all points to extinguishing the flame!

I would really like to see if we can steer Rhea's story-line astray. Either help or hurt her mission somehow.
ANYONE know about racing down to the Rite before Rhea does? Especially as part of a full-kindle or extinguish flame run? (Since apparently this idea is old news)

I might have to run down there first thing NG+...

Thanks for the encouragement folks. I know we all want this riddle solved.

Lol, it really is a pretty deep rabbit hole once you get into it. I echo Doelker about not cracking and going hollow down there. Re Reah, my understanding and observation is that nothing significant changes with her mission even if you kill Pinwheel immediately, although the order in which folks appear in Firelink may skip a bit. The last time I did it, I continued on to the Tomb and jumped down near Patches but she and her hollows just weren't down there yet. They did show up later after I rang a bell or two. I also did a Way of White run using starting cleric character, cleric armor, the seance/miracle rings, lots of prayer gestures etc, and nothing changed. Apparently there was supposed to be more to the Way of White covenant based in the Parish (which is why the building is huge from the outside but seemingly missing areas behind the altar on the inside) but it was cut sometime before release, probably taking the elite cleric armor with it.

I will say that one thing that has always bothered me is the animations when you absorb a Lord's soul, if you crush it for souls rather than make a weapon/shield etc. The animations seem to be slightly different for each soul, roughly corresponding to how many souls you get. The most ostentatious is of course Gwyn's soul, which when you use it has a huge fiery absorption animation. This is quite different, for example, than using a Great Hero soul even though both give you 20k. I know folks have tried using them and going into a new game to see if anything changes without any luck, but it just seems to me that absorbing all the Lord souls is (in a non-bb glitched game) something that would necessarily require at least one full playthrough and then move into NG+ to even have them all absorbed. And NG+ was obviously designed to give you new options for some of those souls, such as how without the bb glitch you'd have to be in at least NG+ to get the faith 50 sunlight spear via giving Gwyn's soul to the sunlight altar. Maybe you were supposed to do a few playthroughs to have absorbed all the souls and get both sunlight spear and Gwyn's sword before you could kill the last dragon, or something.

Don't go Hollow and start running around wearing a big hat and a loin cloth, fireLESS. It's possible, based on the text dumps and multiple attempts, that From Software planned a lot of content but didn't have time or resources to put everything in. So I hope you're having fun and won't be too angered if nothing new comes of your experimentation.

Fireless you're a funny guy.
From the trailers you can see there are a bunch of NPCs by the Firelink bonfire and according to Rhea when she is in the Church she doesn't like it there because it is frequented by travellers and she is not good around people, yet in game there are no travelers just us and the NPCs we save.
Rhea goes to the Dukes Archives I'm pretty sure if you kill Petrus and buy all her miracles.
Seaths Channelers took females for Seaths experiments (if my memory is still dandy I think they only stole Maidens) Rhea is a Maiden so it makes sense she was kidnapped and taken there.
I always go to kill Pinwheel before I even reach the burg because having 20 flasks in the bonfires where you PvP is like a must, but Rhea isn't in her spot in ToG untill you kill Capra Demon and go to like 3 new areas or warp/homeward bone.
Who's to say Rhea doesn't have the Pendant from the get go? Some NPCs you don't get their items untill a certain event or such, Rhea dying in the church, Siegmier of Catarina dying in Ash Lake.
(My opinion(s) next) I don't think a no bonfire run was intended by the creators because in Undead Asylum there's that first bonfire which you instinctively light and when you reach Lordran it says "Kindle and lvl at bonfires".
My final opinion, there was a part of the story that was cut out and it was all to do with Oscar (the guy that gives you the flask in Undead Asylum) he was supposed to be your pal through out
the game. He is interesting because if you side with Frampt he goes some thing along the lines of "I will be the new Dark Lord" but if you go with Kaath he says something like...... (I forgot I haven't read the text dump in forever, but it's like the opposite of what he says before), I was thinking maybe the Pendant had something to do with him (or the cut out Shiva quest) but because it was cut out we'll never know.

Thanks Befowler, I very much appreciate fine points.
I take away from this many important things.

1) NG+ is probably where any changes will go down, if they do go down. Gwyn's soul ( being the main indicator.

2) I can get to pinwheel and ToG before Rhea. (Time is so freakin distorted though..) Did not produce results on a normal bonfire run.
Wonder if you had killed patches, perhaps she would be spared somehow?

3) There is a slightly different animation when absorbing souls, perhaps connected to the power of said souls be ingested into player. There may be an avenue of logic to consider here.

What if absorbing those souls AND having Gwyns sunlight spear is the only way to have the sweet power of the lords!? If I extinguish everyone else's flame, the final bonfire's embers will be oh so dim. My sunspear, Oh so grossly incandescent.

I am glad I choose the sun for this run. I can still test this idea, even if I cant figure out Rhea in the meantime.

Out of the many ambitions they had when they created this game, I have to believe that ONE remains. I think it quite obvious that they had an idea with DS, wherein they could produce a different story line for every covenant available, a totally different experience. Which in some ways, they very much succeed in doing. I have got to believe that there is still a way to stop the eternal purgatory. For as long as hollows remain in Lordran, I will remain in Lordran!

MIZAYAKSIASIKIII

Now, about Reah being in the Duke's, I don't remember if it was Acidic who posted it, but the main thought is that if you buy all her miracles at the Parish without killing two bosses the Duke's outcome is triggered.
Now, one thought is that Reah was kidnapped by a Channeler and brought there in order to continue Seath's experiments with the maidens, after all Reah is a maiden of the way of the white.
The other thought is that she went there trying to rescue other maidens from Seath's claws, was captured and turned hollow.
One thing is to consider... And yes, I feel you when you start to ask yourself this questions, 'cause I think we all did, like if you get the Rite of Kindling by Killing Pinwheel why in hell is Reah and her hollowed clerics in the ToG?
What made them go further? How could they miss Pinwheel if there is no other way to get there?
All that sort of questions leave you with a big question mark inside your head and all you can do is speculate.
Now kindle or not kindle the bonfires have always been fishy to me. To be honest I don't agree with the tale from both serpents because think about this:
Frampt wants you to light the Fire and Succeed Gwyn, his "Friend".
Kathee wants you to just kill Gwyn. Kathee asks you for humanity, and her covenant is made to stop other player's journey and steal their humanity and feed it to Kathee... Mmmm Fishy.
Humanity is to me the shards of the Furtive's Pigmy Soul. So why would you feed it to a Primordial Serpent?
And the only thing that seems a fact is the death of Gwyn.
Who are the real pupetteers? The primordial serpents? Gwendolyn? The Furtive Pigmy?
At the end, I always understood that if you link the fire all bonfires would be lited... If you didn't then they would all get extinguished. So the bonfires are meaningless.
Only those with the Firekeepers seem to have some connection to the flame at the Kiln.
Wow... Damn... Is just too deep...
Anyway, my only complain about all this is that I don't have a real option where I choose not to side up with any of the two serpents, because to me they all say are just half trues and half lies, and their true meanning is just to regain power.
You, the chosen undead are just a tool.

Yup. Those serpents are liars. You can tell they are using you by the way they speak. They themselves are being used by the master puppeteers to trick all the undead. Again, this is all why extinguish bonfire makes sense. It is the only alternative to eternal damnation brought on by either of the serpent paths. Any alternative that breaks the cycle is worth exploring. Extinguishing bonfires sounds most logical.

I'm likening the fact that we can get to ToG before rhea. I also seriously wonder why she ends up in ToG. What if there is something down there that we miss because she gets it?? Is the prism stones that we fin in the ToG actually from Rheas party? The game definitely intended for us to notice they went in there PREPARED, it wasn't by mistake.

I have my doubts about the widely accepted theory that the humanities are Pygmy's divvied up portion. Maybe the Pygmy kept some... Somewhere. Maybe he is actually the firEbomb merchant. I don't know. It just seems like they wouldn't use the word "furtive" if that was the case. Who knows. So many questions....

Perhaps the Pygmy is in the tomb of giants.
Giant is the opposite of Pygmy. Sort of.

fireLESS wrote:Perhaps the Pygmy is in the tomb of giants.
Giant is the opposite of Pygmy. Sort of.

Again you are a silly person FireLESS, the Pygmy is long since dead, humanity are shards of the Dark Soul. I have more to say but you can look up the rest and try not to read theories but facts.

Again you are a silly person FireLESS, the Pygmy is long since dead, humanity are shards of the Dark Soul. I have more to say but you can look up the rest and try not to read theories but facts.[/quote]

There is no evidence that the Pygmy is dead. AND, It is only pure speculation that humanity are shards of the dark soul. It makes some sense, yes. Never says that anywhere though. Not to my knowledge.
You are getting that from the theories bro! How am I guilty of looking at theories, when in the very same sentence you provide theories for evidence! You are guilty of the same thing you are accusing me of, IN the same sentence. Confusing.
Again, I don't see any evidence for humanity being the remnants of the dark soul. Just subtle hinting by associating the "black sprite" of humanity to the dark soul.
It is just as easy to presume the firekeeper souls or something is the dark soul fragments. It sure doesnt settle my stomach, I want facts!
So, I am def not convinced that pygmy isnt something we havent considered. The dark soul could be hiding somewhere still. Or a fragment of it.

I think Nito is somehow connected to WoW covenant - Paladin Leeroy's gear is a stone's throw away from Nito's casket, also says in Leeroy's armor text that he is the first undead that the WoW PRODUCED. Their undead 'mission' somehow involves the First of the Dead imo, that's why they crawled further into the ToG.. Maybe a picnic? Anyways, if you're going to try the Sunlight Spear/Miasma/Firestorm gig on Everlasting Dragon, the Gravelord sword's text says it gives off a miasma.. I'm sure people have tried it before, but maybe with Toxic Mist or something. So mayhaps a swipe with the sword instead of a pyro spell. So for that, you'd have to be in the covenant.. Or get it dropped. You should keep us posted on your level and where you're going to be lurking for some jolly cooperaton gifting sessions.

For the heck of it, I tried the Balder Side Sword +15 on the Everlasting Dragon and The Ring of Steel Protection equiped, from info on King Rendal if I recall correctly. He once killed a Giant Drake with it, but appearantly, not like that one

Scirvir wrote:I think Nito is somehow connected to WoW covenant - Paladin Leeroy's gear is a stone's throw away from Nito's casket, also says in Leeroy's armor text that he is the first undead that the WoW PRODUCED. Their undead 'mission' somehow involves the First of the Dead imo, that's why they crawled further into the ToG.. Maybe a picnic? Anyways, if you're going to try the Sunlight Spear/Miasma/Firestorm gig on Everlasting Dragon, the Gravelord sword's text says it gives off a miasma.. I'm sure people have tried it before, but maybe with Toxic Mist or something. So mayhaps a swipe with the sword instead of a pyro spell. So for that, you'd have to be in the covenant.. Or get it dropped. You should keep us posted on your level and where you're going to be lurking for some jolly cooperaton gifting sessions.

Gravelord Sword. CHECK. Plus all the other Miasma's.

Nito is definitely a destination for these clerics. From what I can put together, there is some royal bloodline, Rhea is a member of, which governs in a theocracy. Apparently, for whatever reason, god to them is Lord Gwyn. Thats why whenever they get a chance they send one or a few clerics out, and they head on over to Lordran through the stargate (carrying lots of humanity). They regularly fail at their missions because they are too stupid to return after pinwheel and level up for awhile before going down to Nito. Or maybe they want to have tea with mean ol' nito. Or its a race to get something before anyone else does. Who knows? Patches rips them off and he hates them. Lautrec prob rips them off to acquire humanity.
There is the question of why the heck Petrus turns on Rhea. Cowardice makes some sence, but then if that was the case, it implies that clerics can also return through the stargate somehow.
I would rather think that he wants to return himself (he gives us coin right?), killing her because she is going to trap him there by linking the fires through kindling. OR becuase she retrieved something from nito that will help her do something else, which he sees as sinister (if he lost faith and knows not to help Gwyn, or if she lost faith). More likely to be that he lost faith, because he doesnt care if I am in WoW to sell miracles after returning from his cowardly mission. Whatever it is, He no likey Rhea when she returns, and he wants her dead. All that being said, if they seriously put Leeroy and Rhea (+schoolmates), AND Patches into the ToG for nothing more than a tea party, I will backstab myself!

No bonfire run is not progressing much, the girlfriend takes over console like "NuuUhhh, I know how many hours you waste on that fool game! This is my time now", all vindictive and everything.
She suddenly starts to play dark souls! And, she makes it to the undead burg in only 8 restarts from the beginning! I was so proud. She's so hot when she slash-thrashes through the burg.

I think Petrus is just one step to become Hollow, although we never see it really happening. If you think about how he talks to you at the beginning and then how is he all suffering and in grief because he lost Reah.
But if you uncover his plot about killing her he becomes kind of menacing.
Kind of schyzofrenic or paranoic.
So to me it would like he's getting crazy and unstable thus starting to get hollow.

By the way... Thumps up about your girlfriend.
My 12 years old brother visited me during the weekend and I introduced him to DkS.
I said that it was enough of playing mario bros games and that he had to start playing a real game.
He chose a Thief as starting class and managed to get to the parish dying only 8-9 times too.
Obviously I was couching him a little bit.