Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

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    fireLESS
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by fireLESS on Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:23 pm

    Doelker wrote:I think Petrus is just one step to become Hollow, although we never see it really happening. If you think about how he talks to you at the beginning and then how is he all suffering and in grief because he lost Reah.
    But if you uncover his plot about killing her he becomes kind of menacing.
    Kind of schyzofrenic or paranoic.
    So to me it would like he's getting crazy and unstable thus starting to get hollow.

    I would agree that he is losing his wits. Which does seem to happen with these more obsessive NPCs before they go hollow. But goin hollow is hard when you just sit around fire link shrine. Plus he had two humanities. He also claims to be a wolf in sheep clothing if he kills you, which means his wits may be more intact than we thought! Maybe he couldn't find a bonfire after firelink shrine goes away. Lol. You are right that he never does FULLY hollow so perhaps he was on the verge.
    A riddle within an enigma, locked inside the mind of a lunatic, who is trapped in purgatory. That's a tough one to crack!


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:26 pm

    I think you're right fireless, and it all adds up and makes sense. See I had figured out why the curse of the undead and everyone dies or hallows, and that is that in all my time in Lordran far and wide, I have never seen as much as a bite to eat; no sandwich, no banana or a single berry. The closest they enjoy is a couple of bites off a rats back, untill they run away, and fatty petrus is trying to get get to stargate for some real chow. He is sick of living off dung pies, like everyone else. That's why Frampt's breathe stinks too.

    It all adds up.

    Anyhoo, in my F.B.I file regarding WoW, I had found it strange that Fatty claims Rhea "slipped" in the catacombs, but she says that it was Patches; also saying that Fatty abandoned her, not had anything to do with their incident. Now either Fatty doesn't know his arse'ol from his earhole, or he is covering for Patches. Patches hates clerics, Fatty likes to be paid for info, and likes trinkets too, as Lautrec says.

    Big Mac, Large Fries and Coke. Not long now. Fatty.
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by fireLESS on Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:33 pm

    Lol. Exactly! For christ-sake, they're eating blight-puss down there in blight town, so you know food is gettin scarce!
    That fatty sold her out to patches because he would rather abandon his god than risk missin out on some old fashioned BBQ.
    Gwyn is cool and all, but when I am king, I'm fixin to use some lord souls to open up a nice farmers market outside the parish. And a Starbucks. Lets face it- Lordran is basically no more fun than Afghanistan or something.


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    Yes Fire-keeper, I can see that I am the chosen one.

    Post by fireLESS on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:50 pm

    Made it through Sens Fortress and to my new home! Had to run up through blighttown-valley of drakes-firelink-parish-sens fortress-magical dragons to Anor Londo. I really can't say it was much more difficult than it ever has been. No problems, other than the invader who stabbed me in the back 2 inches form the boss door. I bet he had a good laugh.
    Sat at my new warm fire, much better accommodations here then with the fair lady. I cant wait to turn this wretched land cold.

    This is the way to do it. I dont care what the critcs say. Its the whole freaking reason there are fire keepers in the first place. I ran around in new londo a little bit. Had some serious revelations.
    The keeper of the fire tells me that "the one will have a realization" or whatever, going straight out. This is where my brain exploded with connections. After clearing out the painting guardians and killing a couple dragons, I find "THE RING OF THE SUNS FIRSTBORN", on a corpse. The corpse next to what appears to be a statue of Gwyn. Interesting. I equipped that sucker. Made sure to read the description. Lots of people commonly think that Solaire is the firstborn, yet here is the firstborns ring on some corpse. Keep that in mind. It could be and it could not be true that solaire is the first born. However, I want to pause and come back to that later.

    I thought a bit about the lore surrounding this firstborn. There is a lot of information about this firstborn. Information sprinkled about the items, the sunlight maggot, the ring, and the PENDANT and the medals.

    This ring and the pendant say something VERY important. They basically say that the record of the first born was removed from "annals" of history. Annals is not a butt-hole. Annals is like the historical records. So the firstborn sun was removed from the historical records.
    This begs the question: WHY??
    WHY the heck was he removed from the records? It says, "his foolishness". So, officially, he was removed from the records for being "foolish", although now nobody knows his name or what foolishness he did, because he was removed from the record books of history.

    WHOMEVER it was that removed those records, he did so because he did not want anyone to know what this firstborn sons foolishness was.
    Yes, yes, so nicely fitting. This is all speculation folks. Except for that I am speculating it correctly.

    Who would have the power to delete records? Gwyn probably. He would go over to the only library in town, and he would be like "yo duke, delete that **** bro". And boom it would be gone. The person who has the power is the one who deletes the history that challenges their very power.
    LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THIS FOOLISHNESS.
    If I am a demi-god that controls all the power of the land. If I am Lord Gwyn, I have everyone around my finger. I have the primordial serpents doing my bidding. I got Rhea linkin fires and ****. I done killed those old dragon biatches. I got it ALL!
    Then I have a son. The firstborn. BECAUSE, I am a demi-god, the "power of the sun" automatically gets inherited by this boy. I am a proud father-god, Its like the family bloodline, yo! So I try to raise him up real smart-like. I show him how wonderfully powerful his inherited sunpower is. I show him about the linking of the fires. I show him that it is the linked fire that allows the "age of fire" to continue. It is to EVERYONES benefit if we link those fires up further. That is everyone EXCEPT those cute little accursed undead. To maintain power, we must keep them trapped in these cells, we must keep them hollowed with fierce opposition. Mainly though, we must use them against themselves. We will conduct experiments on them, we will find what makes them tick.. (which is apparently weird alien music btw). We must use their stupidity to help link our fires. etc. etc

    So the son gets into his teenage years and he is all like, 'DAD I HATE YOU", and "WHERE ARE MY PIZZA ROLLS!".
    "well son, there are no pizza rolls in lordran, do your homework"
    and the firstborn is all "I HATE YOU, your not my REAL dad!"
    Teen angst. We have all been there.
    So the kid steals his dad's keys by telling him that he is gonna go kindle a bonfire somewhere, and he goes out into Lordran against his father's wishes. He NEVER returns. He is on a secret mission to DESTROY the bonfires and bring about the "AGE of MAN" . He failed at this task, but its okay cuz Im fixin to bring the age of man anyway.

    This firstborn could indeed be Solaire. Or Solaire could be the SON of the first-born son. The Grandson of Lord Gwyn. There are some real similarities to solaire and the lore about the firstborn, and time is distorted, after-all. So why is his ring on this random corpse?
    Here's what I think (could be wrong): In his stupidity and young age, he ended up getting some undead chick pregnant., and he created a son who inherited the power, and subsequently died under the statue of his grampie. Or this corpse is the son who inherited that power, and solaire is the grandson. Whichever way, it doesnt matter. This explains why Solaire helps you kill Gwyn if you let him.

    So I am the chosen one after-all. Isnt someone going to beat me to the 3rd ending? Have I not convinced you critics yet??

    Let me discuss PRISCILLA. She is somehow very important to all this. Perhaps she knows what the firstborn was doing exactly. Or perhaps she has the power that is capable of taking Gwyn down. No matter what the story is, she is integral. Just like the records were destroyed, she was banished to this painting. Imprisoned, hid away from the humans. To keep them from allowing this story to be pieced together. Unfortunately for Gwyn, piece it together is just what I will do, indeed.
    She has the occult ember, which I def need in my faith build. There is power associated with her. That is my next hurdle in story logic.

    I will tell you this much:
    I know I am right about extinguishing these bonfires. It is all too obvious. The fire-keeper in new londo basically outright tells you. What do keepers do? They keep the fire linked. They are not allowed to speak to one-another. The keeper at fire link wont talk cuz she lost her tongue or something (she prob. talked to another keeper), - if saved- she tells you she sinned and whatever. SHE KNOWS, she knows she is perpetuating the age of fire AND she knows it is wrong. She knows, because of her dirty fire-keeper gossip, and since being punished so freakin harshly, does not take such risks. Neither do the other keepers.

    You are lucky I am not keeping this to myself. I already know someone with more time is going to beat me to this easter-egg.
    The plot obviously has to do with extinguishing these things!


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:53 pm

    yeah, they live to protect the flame, and die to protect it further.

    Probably. always baffled me. on estus flash if i recall.
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:46 pm


    This ring and the pendant say something VERY important. They basically say that the record of the first born was removed from "annals" of history. Annals is not a butt-hole. Annals is like the historical records. So the firstborn sun was removed from the historical records.
    This begs the question: WHY??
    WHY the heck was he removed from the records? It says, "his foolishness".]

    We know 'Why?' but not the specifics. Whatever the firstborn did, it resulted in the loss of their most important library and/or records. I speculate that his foolishness involved defeating an enemy by destroying this library as a strategy.

    There is a real-world, historical parallel which From may have used as inspiration for this back story. The Library of Alexandria was the largest and most important library in the ancient world. There are multiple stories attempting to explain what happened, but the account that fits this situation most neatly would be the one that suggested that Julius Caesar accidentally burned the Library when he set fire the Egyptian navy in order to overcome Achillas' strategy, which was to limit Caesar's ability to communicate with Rome using a naval blockade.
    The fire spread, and supposedly burned the docks, surrounding buildings and eventually reached the library.

    The only other library that is mentioned in the lore is that owned by Seath. There may be a connection here, as well. Perhaps Seath's initial research was into something that Gwyn and/or the Witch were interested in (perhaps, how to make the First Flame permanent): It is possible that the loss of these annals was like nailing the final nail in the coffin - it may have set in motion the end of the Age of Fire. The Witch tried to duplicate the First Flame herself, was mutated by the Fires of Chaos, and unleashed hordes of demons on to the land. Gwyn led his knights to fight the demons, further weakening the land as many of these knights would die and become Undead. Seath might have gone crazy because his records were incomplete - without the knowledge from the annals, he had to resort to trying to figure out the mystery of immortality himself and slowly went crazy. Such a chain reaction would have led Gwyn to deliver such an incredibly heavy punishment on the Firstborn.

    We can't easily figure out who the enemy could be, but it is indicated that Anor Londo was not the only gathering place of gods and goddesses. Carim is said to have different deities than Lordran, and many of Carim's gods once lived in Anor Londo before the event called "The Second Lightning of the Flame of Disparity" (this seems to refer to Gwyn Linking the First Flame). In addition to this, Thoruland's All Father Lloyd is said to be Lord Gwyn's uncle. Obviously, there were many deities but we don't know of any cultures completely foreign to Anor Londo and Lordran to the extent that there were enemies. The fact that there was a god of war and so many knights does indicate that other threats besides the dragons existed. It may be similar to Greek mythology in that there were multiple orders of gods, with the Olympian Order succeeding from the Titanic Order, and some Olympian gods actually being from independent orders and older than Zeus - such as Aphrodite, who is not the child of Zeus and predates him. There is a minor connection here, as well: Aphrodite's progeny went on to create the Roman Empire after the Trojan War ended the Heroic Era and we are told in "Dark Souls" that Gwynevere left Anor Londo with all of the remaining deities. She may have created her own kingdom ruled by her and Flan.


    Last edited by VinheimProfessor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:56 pm

    I am completely oblivious to this aspect of the lore, but there is another library of some sorts, or destroyed books to be exact, in Pinwheel's tomb (boss fight area). Could that make any sense to you?
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by fireLESS on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:10 pm

    I see your point here. The firstborn DID engage in some annally destructive behavior. He probably DID destroy records (important to seath and gwyn) from the Annals. This is more difficult to be sure of but def sounds likely. "his foolishness resulted in the loss of the annals" so they took away his divine status and made sure that no entry was made into the annals of history, so that they WE could not find the firstborn"s INTENTION behind the aforementioned destruction. I believe this was to destroy the power of of Gwyn, (putting out fires, making sure they would not be permanent). So there is no book explaining how to make permanent the fire AND no book describing the crimes of the firstborn.

    Good. Never really liked reading books anyway.


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by fireLESS on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:13 pm

    baby_beavis wrote:I am completely oblivious to this aspect of the lore, but there is another library of some sorts, or destroyed books to be exact, in Pinwheel's tomb (boss fight area). Could that make any sense to you?

    That is a true and interesting point. There are books all over that place. Not sure if it has significance, but worth keeping in mind considering FROM could have just used skeletons for decoration, like they usually do.


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:14 pm

    Could it be that you get Rite of Kindling from pinwheel because he read them from those books?
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:18 pm

    baby_beavis wrote:I am completely oblivious to this aspect of the lore, but there is another library of some sorts, or destroyed books to be exact, in Pinwheel's tomb (boss fight area). Could that make any sense to you?

    There weren't that many books there, though, which is why I don't consider it a great library. However these books may have been knowledge that the Occult used to challenge the deities of Anor Londo. The lore tells us that the Occult were intent on hunting gods. Velka was one of their major enemies - it is heavily suggested and implied that she used to live in the dimension of the Painted World of Ariamis, but left it and went to Carim after Gwyndolin became the ruler of Anor Londo - in other words, she left around the same time as Gwynevere and the other deities abandoned the city.

    This is where pure speculation comes in to play: Epicnamebro (look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Balq4yCcAJg&feature=relmfu and go to 10:56) noted that the Occult wanted to overthrow the Gods and specifically targeted Nito. All indications are that the Occult were defeated and jailed in the Painting. The Painted World may be where the Occult's members were banished after being defeated and after this, Nito went to his current location. The Dark Ember itself is found in Ariamis, once again hinting at this connection to the Occult since it ascends weapons to that status. I think that the books near Nito are books containing Occult knowledge that he watches over in order to prevent the knowledge from being used again; somewhat like destroying the cult by separating the leaders who were trapped in the Painted World from their books which could reveal sorceries and miracles they could use to escape.
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by fireLESS on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:23 pm

    baby_beavis wrote:Could it be that you get Rite of Kindling from pinwheel because he read them from those books?

    I'm getting happy. I might be able to make sense of Rheas mission. What If she believes there is a record remaining in the ToG, a record that will teach Gwyn how to make permanent the flame. Yes she wanted the Rite of kindling, but even moreso she wants this information. This could also explain why she ends up in the archives! Don't you see!? She is bringing the info to Seath in order to help make permanent the age of fire!

    Vinheim makes a GREAT point also!! There IS a connection to the painted world, afterall! Both of these things could be true simultaneous. Or one an not the other, either way, it def supports extinguishing bonfires!


    Last edited by fireLESS on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:25 pm

    They are not the archives, but I thought it was quite a pile. Considering what fireless, it made sense to me that pinwheel had the rite of kindling from those books somewhere.


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by Shabbalaba on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:25 pm

    @Doelker

    Yes - Yes - Yes - Yes

    I didnt even read the posts after yours above, because i was so excited to see someone else 'feels' as i do in regards to the serpants - i think the key is ng+7 - the number 7 is referenced all over dark souls and i think its trying to tell us - get to ng+7

    - now i may be going all jim carrey in the movie "number 23" where as im 'looking' to hard to make the connections but man - there are'7's' all over.

    Here is what i mean:
    - when reah goes hollow at the parish - the loot is a pendant and 7 humanity
    - there are 7 firekeeper souls in each playthru
    - estus flask can be upgraded to + 7
    - 7 boss souls each playthru (not counting Gwynn - assuming this soul is 'special')
    - 7th ng+ is the last the difficulty gets increased.
    - on the "lady of the darkling" has 7 crystals hanging near her ***
    - gwynns crown has 7 points (mmm i could be wrong on this one - not near the game atm)
    - gwynns 'boss area' in the kiln has 7 'obstacles' that you can hide behind when fighting (the rocks in which you can position behind so gwynns attack hits the rock and not you)
    - Maidens helm - initial stats are : 7,8,7,7 (whereas the dingy set helm is 6,8,6,6 - god (777) and devlis (666) numbers?!? - ok, ok - this connection maybe to far a push
    - 7 covenants to level up (assuming you gain levels in alvinas forest ? Ive seem this brought up but i have Yet to try myself)

    These are the ones i can think off of the top of my head - ill make a separate thread later today about the extensive use of the number 7 in dark souls - im on my iphone, and its a real pain in the *** to edit the above, the damn screen 'jumps' all over the place - appologies i advance for any typo's








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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:27 pm

    ROFL fireless. Fatty cant read, that's why he's back to stargate. finally some sense


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:28 pm

    baby_beavis wrote:Could it be that you get Rite of Kindling from pinwheel because he read them from those books?

    I think that Pinwheel probably learned this from Nito. I think all of the possessors of Lord Souls know how to Kindle and teach certain followers. Consider that many of the followers of the Gods' are Firekeepers - the White Lady presumably learned this from the Witch, Anastacia learned this in Astora, and the Lady of the Darkling apparently learned this from Gwyndolin.

    The lore regarding Kindling gets really strange and confusing, though. A fire keeper is said to be the corporeal manifestation of their bonfire, however certain fire keepers predate their bonfires indicating that it is their souls which are special - it seems less that they are manifestations of the bonfire and more that they have the unique ability to create one. Kindling seems to be separate from the ability to create a Bonfire; otherwise, they would kindle the bonfires themselves and the clerics of the Way of White wouldn't need to make that a mission. Perhaps the Everlasting Dragon is unkillable because it created a Bonfire, and became a corporeal manifestation of it, preserving it's life.
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by befowler on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:34 pm

    I'm no loremaster, but isn't the reason Reah ends up in the Archives because she is taken by one of Seath's maiden-stealing Channelers (like the one in the Parish watching over her as she prays), and would eventually have ended up as a Pisaca or maybe stuck in a golem?


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:36 pm

    @ VinheimProfessor Yeah I am a bit green on this subject, but that just popped to mind from what fireless had just said at that moment about literature how to maintain the flames or something.


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by Shabbalaba on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:38 pm

    Befowler - i thought that too but than it brings up the question - why does Petrus have her talisman?

    unless....petrus is a channeler dressed in cleric clothing?!? ("sheep dressed as a wolf" or whatever petrus piece of dialogue is)


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by baby_beavis on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:39 pm

    befowler wrote:I'm no loremaster, but isn't the reason Reah ends up in the Archives because she is taken by one of Seath's maiden-stealing Channelers (like the one in the Parish watching over her as she prays), and would eventually have ended up as a Pisaca or maybe stuck in a golem?

    I think lore-wise, that was more a theory or speculation than fact. unless it's been discussed further in some dark corner. Although I think it still would make sense. i.e she didn't go to seath voluntarily, as the previous idea
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:46 pm

    befowler wrote:I'm no loremaster, but isn't the reason Reah ends up in the Archives because she is taken by one of Seath's maiden-stealing Channelers (like the one in the Parish watching over her as she prays), and would eventually have ended up as a Pisaca or maybe stuck in a golem?

    That's the reason she was imprisoned, but it doesn't explain how she got there or encountered a Channeler in the first place. Because time is distorted, it is very hard to build a timeline for any of these characters. For example, in my games, the channeler in the Parish was killed long before Rhea ever got there. I didn't realize other players might have done this in another order and both could have been in the same place at the same time.

    Is is possible that her path after the Catacombs took her through many of the places your character had cleared, she eventually reached Seath's library and was captured there. It is possible, and this is kind of sad, that she never found the Rite of Kindling because your character learned it, and once she was imprisoned, her faith wavered and she went Hollow. After all, she had been through many traumatic experiences and was too young to really deal with them. Being captured may have been the last straw before she went insane.
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by fireLESS on Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:53 pm

    baby_beavis wrote:
    befowler wrote:I'm no loremaster, but isn't the reason Reah ends up in the Archives because she is taken by one of Seath's maiden-stealing Channelers (like the one in the Parish watching over her as she prays), and would eventually have ended up as a Pisaca or maybe stuck in a golem?

    I think lore-wise, that was more a theory or speculation than fact. unless it's been discussed further in some dark corner. Although I think it still would make sense. i.e she didn't go to seath voluntarily, as the previous idea

    Ya, That theory makes sense.. Just trying to think outside the box. There are strange problems with that theory. It doesn't explain much about anything. It just leaves us with a dead end. So I never liked it much. It's so assuming to just figure, oh ya she got kidnapped by a chanellor, done deal, let's go home. Just doesn't settle.
    I think we will get her story licked soon enough.

    There me be something to the NG7 extinguish bonfire run, unfortunately. Perhaps NG7 is the only way to corner enough of the power present in Lordran to challenge the Edragon. Each NG we learn more and grow stronger, and they get weaker as the bonfires are repeatedly left unlinked by the user.


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    VinheimProfessor
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by VinheimProfessor on Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:38 pm

    There me be something to the NG7 extinguish bonfire run, unfortunately. Perhaps NG7 is the only way to corner enough of the power present in Lordran to challenge the Edragon. Each NG we learn more and grow stronger, and they get weaker as the bonfires are repeatedly left unlinked by the user.

    The only problem with this is that with the diminishing returns we get from reinforcing stats past 40-50, we don't really get that much stronger even after maxing our levels LOL.

    I wonder what would happen if you defeat lord Gwynn, and then use the Homeward Miracle or a Homeward Bone.
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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by Doelker on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:08 pm

    ^^ that has been done already. One of the guys even used the dark sign after defeating Gwyn, and he only died and lost his souls and humanity.


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    Re: Extinguish the bonfires. No bonfire run

    Post by Doelker on Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:22 pm

    @shabbalaba:
    Definately I do think the same. Of there is something hidden, some sort of huge mistery waiting to ve unveiled then I would think it wouldn't come up until NG+7.
    You know what is a big let down?
    There is no achievemnet or trophy for anything like that. So I try to remember if any of the latest games have some sort of big secret that is not part of any secret achievement or trophy.
    Now, let's not forget what a lot of people have tried already, and if you want to go on a secret hunting, then use that knowledge and try to find new approachs.
    Read Glyphblade's secret hunting thread. It can work as a tutorial and can help you to find new ideas and help you to not waste time in others that had already been tried several times without any success.


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