What Do We Have Left?

No ganking unless your a quester, no griefing, ever. Buffing and stunlocking are fine, provided you are fighting solo for the second. WoG and Twop both are fine when used correctly, and there are available counters when they are abused. BS fishing is counterable. Turtling and healing both have the same counter, BSing. GC no comment. Flipping Hvaels in a mask is annoying but generally shows a lower level of play and can be countered.
Its all about counters to these things, learn them and its easy.
Do I sound like Forum at all?

Wear a Channeler's Helm, go naked with the rest, use a Plank Shield, and attack with your bare fist. That's not OP in my book.

Also, we probably shouldn't rehash this issue again. It's the kindling and all it needs is a spark. I'd urge people to act with caution and to keep a level head here.

The cut off to griefing is about 40 I think, because at that point you should be entering Sen's/Anor Londo and have a grip on what you're doing.

Tt always seems the melee-types are never at fault unless they're bs/parry hounds.

I don't get mad at any of those things. I'm not a fan of BS fishing but that's just because it makes for a boring short fight, but most importantly not liking something doesn't mean i get mad when it happens. The things I don't like are just the things I don't do to others because I wouldn't want it done to me.

To be totally honest with you, I really couldn't care less if a PvP opponent used any of the above against me in a fight, but I draw the line at the rapidly increasing number of Dragon Headstone Glitchers who are really starting to P-me-off, as they could quite easily lead us to a situation whereby their cheating ways start to make the lower level PvP experience non-playable.

Very few of those things are cheap 1v1, save maybe healing with Divine Blessings and Hornet Ring bs fishing. (ganking aside, of course) Some of them are a bit OP, like flipping in full Havels, but GS stunlocking can be countered by using a spear, for example. Greatswords have very little that can make them viable against a good spear user, and they generally beat great combustion, a lot of bs fishers, parry fishers, etc. (You can tell i love spears)

Lots of us complain about those things because the people who do them get great reward from little practice and skill while it usually takes a skillful player to counter these tactics.

Nothing is cheap .
Everything is availiable for everyone .
If you dont want use Backstabs,WoG or whatever then dont .
But dont Judge someone else if they use something you call cheap.

^ Its sad but he is right. Coming from a person that refuses to duel with DWGR, any havel piece, WoG, shield, masks...

And whats the problem about buffing?

Carphil wrote:

And whats the problem about buffing?

I dont like Buffs because they well...make you Die faster and thus make Fights shorter and less Fun

The only thing I find cheap is ganking and healing. When you invade a world, and there are two guys there ready to spam R1 and BS you, that defeats the purpose of PvP. For 1v1's, if I get you down to 10 health, and you start popping Divine Blessings, or Estusing over and over again, why are you bothering to PvP? If you're trying to get through the level, I get that, but then why did you bow, and why are you human in the forest? Beyond those two things, anything is fair game.

I see your point OP, and thats why I ignore the whiners. They're in every game.

In general, I agree with dough, Oniramkenobi, and rifter, but I'll stipulate that using glitches (dragon head mostly) in pvp is the only thing I really have a problem with.

just putting it out there tho, if someone does wrong you, and i'm not talking about attacking a bower cuz he has a mom mask on, than you should immediately drop any rules you were following and go with that.

i personally set them as avoided if they use twop and spam wotg or use dragonhead/kunais or gank with 1-2 others so i can tell if they've done so in the past. they'll show up as an unhappy face on my recent players list and they're going to get jumped with chaos storm and spammed with combustion lol.

I love WOG especially = insta roll bs!

TWOP is also fine I think the only annoying use is TWOP then WOG spam but if thats how you roll then so be it...doesnt make me mad ill just die and move on!!

I am not saying I think healing during a duel/ganking/griefing ect is cool but if anyone is complaining about anything on your list then random PVP isnt for them they should only fight friends with set rules...hence FC!!

Because you are going to run into griefers/gankers/healers no point crying about it. In my last play through I had a +2 reinforced club and base armor and a giants/estoc griefer invaded...i got him with a quad chain BS missed the 5th and lost for a poke or maybe 2...I had fun lol!!

Ghadis_God wrote:

Lots of us complain about those things because the people who do them get great reward from little practice and skill while it usually takes a skillful player to counter these tactics.

This man speaks the truth.

The only thing I find annoying is vitality gouge builds who use an elemental claymore with giants/havels, DWGR and MoM. For some reason this build just really gets to me lol. It's just so....boring! Out of all the build you could do, you make that? Really!? Grrr...

vit builds can be fun if you skimp on the armor in exchange for an interesting weapon like this: http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=3522800732333894

plus with sky high vitality you can even take of the MoM and put on whatever you think looks cool even if it sucks defensively.

sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:vit builds can be fun if you skimp on the armor in exchange for an interesting weapon like this: http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=3522800732333894

plus with sky high vitality you can even take of the MoM and put on whatever you think looks cool even if it sucks defensively.

Heh, that does look fun! I don't have a problem with vit gouges, I just have a problem with vit gouges that also use every other PvP crutch in the game. The toon im currently playing is a dual weilding Pyro with a respectable 1639 vit [ http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=3030698612947624 ] though I have plans to make it 1927 eventually and it's pretty fun. Granted with no weapons/armour/poise it's kind of essential, but hey

you may view them as crutches, others view it as gimping yourself.

please don't assume a player is bad and has to rely on a crutch when in reality they want to have a good defense or offense and better themselves at the most mechanical level in order to compete with other like-minded players.

when someone levels the playing field, most of the time it starts with what they do. they're going to fortify their assets, increase their firepower or outsmart them strategically.

what they're NOT going to do is intentionally weaken themselves and make up an excuse as to why they lost due to intentional sabotage or boast about how good they are for taking illogical risks and calculations and winning against an opponent they'd beat on fair ground anyways.

it's just silly. they're not crutches. spamming kunai's out of your mouth at someone or hiding in a group of three vs a temporarily defenseless player is a crutch, stepping your game up to take that and anything else on isn't.

I agree with OP. Thus I never agree with Tournament rules, I think it cheapen the experience by a miles.

I recall back in Demon Souls, freaking Scraping Spear was banned. And I'm thinking "If anyone dare to pull out a scraping spear on me, I'll freaking pawn them. It's just strategically unsound." However that was approved because the community felt that cheating. Same goes with Acid Cloud, and I was thinking "Doesn't everyone have a 5 consumable slot that you can have Ed Stone?. WTF.

For Dark Souls, No fishing backstab was one that got me thinking. So now, if some starter that doesn't know how to pvp, have no idea to cover his ***, and keep being lure into predictable position.. why Can't I punish him for being a poor player? WTF... but nooooooooo the community condemn it, because back then 90% of the crowd doesn't know how to cover their ***.

Hahalo wrote:I agree with OP. Thus I never agree with Tournament rules, I think it cheapen the experience by a miles.

For Dark Souls, No fishing backstab was one that got me thinking. So now, if some starter that doesn't know how to pvp, have no idea to cover his ***, and keep being lure into predictable position.. why Can't I punish him for being a poor player? WTF... but nooooooooo the community condemn it, because back then 90% of the crowd doesn't know how to cover their ***.

You seem to be making an assumption here. A lot of people are fine with BSing, we don't "condemn it". You know what we arent fine with? Only BSing. Not attempting to fight just constantly going for BS after BS, or abusing lag to get one.

Sorry mate, might be the wrong word to use now. I'll take back my word for that part. Most likely the community have grown mature to it.

There were too many debate back in Nov - Dec in the official forums about Backstab in Tournament, that I have such lasting appeal on me.

Plus I'm 100% agree that Lag Stab is not acceptable. The first Demon Souls Tournament Winner was the best example. However I think it was still fair since the first tournament, we didn't have any rules on lag stab.

Guys, I've been playing for a long time, I've only seen 2 back stabs that I was dubious of in that whole time. (I did 1 of them) The "lag stab" isn't people abusing latency, its just latency making the attack look sketchy, when it looks perfectly fine on their screen.

Forum Pirate wrote:Guys, I've been playing for a long time, I've only seen 2 back stabs that I was dubious of in that whole time. (I did 1 of them) The "lag stab" isn't people abusing latency, its just latency making the attack look sketchy, when it looks perfectly fine on their screen.

yep, sorry to be harsh here but thats ********. It doesnt look perfectly fine. I;ve lagstabbed people twice and both times I teleported into position to BS them. Sorry but you're wrong here.

As I said, I've done it once as well, but I don't believe it to be deliberately exploitable. Even while fishing hard or playing against players who are fishing, every backstab I see save the 2 I mentioned make sense from 1 perspective or the other.

Most of the time I see "lag stab" called, its a situation like this: the person was rolling away, then pulled back into a bs.

Thats just latency screwing with the perception, not something done deliberately that can be banned.