When I backstab

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    dnatc

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    When I backstab

    Post by dnatc on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:34 am

    So I know that getting back stabbed is a sometimes contentious mechanic of Dark Souls, but I wanted to kind of hash out when I feel it's justified and see if people feel the same way. I know there are quite a few Forest Hunters here, and probably a few of you that are fighting for the other side.

    To start off, I have just recently figured out my "niche" in PvP. I was pretty terrible at it for a long time, almost constantly seeing the words YOU DIED after receiving a full yellow health bar of backstab damage. So I did what I'm sure many players did early on - I learned how to do backstabs myself. Then I ran around the forest Lightning Zwei-BS'ing anyone I could.

    Needless to say, I'm well beyond that now and have discovered that playing a fast roll melee character is really fun. I am currently in the forest around lvl 75, two handing a rapier with no shield. I use my rapier to get quick hits in between large slow animation swings and slowly peel that health bar back to zero.

    Wearing Alvina's Ring, being human, and dropping the Red Sign has kept me gainfully employed - I must have fought over a hundred battles today in just a few hours.

    Wow, long intro. So here is when I justify a backstab.

    2v1 Farmers : If I pop into the forest and see a pair of high level Giants/Smoughs wearing enemies, and they are just standing there waiting for my arrival - the phantom is getting backstabbed immediately. I go for the summon since they have nothing to lose, and need to be punished for participating without putting anything on the table. It also allows me to let the host know that he is about to be hitting that "Reverse Hollowing" option in the near future. I feel extra good if the host makes a run for the staircase for a new phantom before meeting his demise. Farmers die a cowards death best.

    When it is tactically appropriate : If I am fighting someone using an incredibly slow weapon, and the opportunity presents itself - I am taking it. I do not fish for the backstab, I fish for the enemy to make a move - then strike in the most effective manner I can.

    Magic/Pyro : I do not go for a backstab just because someone uses TWoPs or WoG, these are parts of the game that can be easily countered, and are very effective if used by the opponent correctly. But if someone goes torch the well kept hair of my character with a great combustion, I will most likely be kicking their lifeless body off the business end of my sword.

    Spawn Campers : These are the absolute worst players, and if you've ever used the Red Sign Soapstone - you've probably met a few. It's pretty easy to avoid getting hit (I attribute this to lag and the camper not having the correct swing timing), and once I roll out of the way, I double check their ticket and politely guide them onto the backstab train. Aside from a farmers phantom, this is the only time I chain BS.

    PvE : If I am questing and get invaded, the gloves are off. It is easy to tell if someone is looking for PvP or trying to get to that next bonfire, and if I am doing the latter there are no rules. I have never played as a Darkwraith for the games intended purpose, but if I did I think I would have the same mentality. This game is intended to be difficult, and when I was a new player, my heart would start racing when I saw that invasion banner.

    So, does this list seem pretty fair? From a lot of the threads around here, it would be easy to get the impression that backstabs are completely frowned upon - but honestly, it's a big part of the play mechanic and we are trying to kill each other.

    This morning I was summoned into the forest as a Dark Spirit and before I reached the host, I received a PSN message that said "Naked Boxing?" so obliged. We boxed for a while then suddenly he parried my fist, whipped out a lighting rapier and one shotted me. Afterwards, I PM'd him "Classy happy"... His response "Dark Souls winking" I smiled.


    Last edited by dnatc on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : first of many grammar spelling edits I'm sure...)
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    ErrJon6661
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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:21 pm

    The only time bsing is not ok: While you're wielding a massive weapon and constantly fish. Any other time is ok in my book.


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by TehInfamousAmos on Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:02 pm

    I never backstab generally as a rule, that could be because i frown upon it and i expect the same common courtesy from people, although if i do get backstabbed then a wake-up parry is always an unpleasant surprise for the perpetrators twisted


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:20 pm

    Looks like a very fair list to me, I approve of it. cheers
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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by Rynoa on Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:46 am

    Looks like a good list to me, too.
    I backstab in almost the same situations as you!

    Once I accidentally backstabbed (and killed) a DW while she was bowing, I don't even know how it happened, probably a mix of lag and me hitting R1 at the wrong time.
    I was so sorry I wrote her 3 messages, but never got an answer sad
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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by Glutebrah on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:29 am

    so lemme get this straight?? you think TWOP and WOG is perfectly fine... but you have a problem with Great combustion??? lol what?

    any form of backstab done after a swing miss/mistake from your opponent is fair, pivot/roll backstabs that you do while the enemy is still locked on is cheap imo.

    this whole anti backstab campaign is kinda annoying though, and frustrates me in FC that i can shoot my avelyn at will and not worry about a single backstab during the reload animation because everyone thinks that would be cheap.


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by RANT on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:52 am

    they seem fair to me, outside of places like FC or a set up duel i think anything goes, yo ucna never trust anyone, specially in the forest and the kiln, it sucks though cause that great duel is so rare, i can only take so much of bs fishing and poise bsing, last time i was in the kiln there was this guy that all he did the entire fight was fish for a bs then i got sick of it and chain bs'd him which took about 4 then after he sends me a gg message and asking me about getting the timing right lol, it wasnt the first time that happened.


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by DarkW17 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:23 pm

    I have no problems with your list...but having been TWOP'd so many times I agree its easy to evade if you see it and run to escape...but once it comes to against me the gloves are off.

    I am in the same boat as a hunter...I always try to start of fair with my claymore and normal setup...but after chipping away at 2 or 3 of them only to have them heal and heal and heal it gets old...now a days I just pull out my glass cannon setup and go for OHKO's...do you know how many times I have OHKO'd a phantom as the host is chugalugging on the flask to desperately save his phantom...I just run over and OHKO him while hes chuggin I just dont have time for there cheap antics any more. Also I carry chaos blade and if someone is actually looking for a duel I will put the club away and duel with 0 poise and the chaos.

    BS's have no place in duels...I think we all agree...but against 3 in the kiln or forest I end up always resorting to pivots but never in a good duel. LOL I never fish it either with gankers you dont have to...they rush you 3 at a time thinking its just another ganking....I just lock and back away then pivot OHKO them 1 at a time as they rush me till the host is left alone and terrified :evil:
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    dnatc

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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by dnatc on Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:22 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:so lemme get this straight?? you think TWOP and WOG is perfectly fine... but you have a problem with Great combustion??? lol what?

    Sorry for the confusion - I'm saying if a player uses TWoP or WoG, I won't immediately go for a pivot backstab just because they use those spells. People say they are OP, but if I fall into the trap it's my fault (seeing a talisman out in PvP usually means those spells are coming).

    If a Sorcerer/Pyro casts a spell too close and my best response is a backstab, I will probably do it. I don't consider any spell/item/tactic really unfair, but will respond with the most damage possible when the opportunity presents itself.
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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:28 pm

    I grew up in DeS, where pivot BS and Roll BS were a fact of life and not considered cheap. So, I normally don't consider them cheap in DkS. BUT . . . .

    Poise makes pivot BS's cheapness blurry. But, BS counters make this even blurrier. Argh.

    My main rule is don't spam anything, don't BS chain or do Oki AoE spells.


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:40 pm

    I still do pivots and roll bs and I'm learning to do the counter bs. I don't feel cheap because I run builds with no poise.


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:01 am

    reim0027 wrote:I grew up in DeS, where pivot BS and Roll BS were a fact of life and not considered cheap. So, I normally don't consider them cheap in DkS. BUT . . . .

    Poise makes pivot BS's cheapness blurry. But, BS counters make this even blurrier. Argh.

    My main rule is don't spam anything, don't BS chain or do Oki AoE spells.

    Here Here. Thing is, in my book, blurry tanslates to fair game in a fight. I can *kind of* see the anti-bs thing but the facts of the gameplay scream "bs away".

    In my mind having problems with bs is like having problems with gravity. You cant change it but it can be overcome, even used to your advantage.


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    Re: When I backstab

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:10 am

    Very well put Forum Pirate.


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