SL 1 invading in the Burg

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:49 pm

    Which is why i have said multiple times people are not reading his whole OP + all of his posts presenting information as to why he is not griefing. He has said multiple times he's invading in the Burg, Lower, and Parish. And everywhere past the Burg you can expect upgraded armor and weapons, as you said. 

    I believe he said the Drake Sword (which is obviously obtainable at that level) does more damage than what he is using. So people arguing he is OP need to do some research on what OP really is at that level.

    It's completely ridiculous to think he is griefing. I'd expect more from some of these people. Anyways, have fun Reim. It's always a good time playing at that level.


    Edit: Now that i think of it, you CAN have upgraded gear in the Burg. You can skip the Taurus Demon entirely by jumping down to the Lower Burg. So that argument is null too. Good day.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by SlintEastwood on Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:00 pm

    I don't understand some of the posts in this thread. Since when were invasions supposed to be "fair"? Why would invading people in the Burg, let alone with +5 equipment not be okay?
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:21 pm

    The burg is very polarized. You'll run into people who just created a new character and have no upgrades. You'll also run into campers with a SL of 210 or more. Then, you'll run into phantoms with elemental weapons. You'll run into campers, or all SLs.

    I will agree that for the most part, with the honest questers, my weapon does more damage than theirs, unless they have a Drake Sword, or BKS (which I have run into several people who do). But, just because their weapons are weak, doesn't make my weapon over powered. It would be overpowered, IMO, if it weren't a reasonable weapon/upgrade to have at that time. And, a +5 weapon is reasonably obtainable with the Master Key and Hellkite Dragon Farming, IMO. Heck, it didn't take me long to learn to become a master at quickly obtaining the Drake Sword ASAP, and then Havel's Ring.

    Now, about my Humanity. I was using it to count. I never healed in any fight, ever. I started with 0 Humanity and earned every Humanity I obtained through host kills.

    I'm a bit perplexed at the response with this topic, to be honest. A while ago, we had a long topic about what constitutes fair low level invasions and it turned into a mass invasion event. We had published specific rules and came up with a spreadsheet detailing everything allowed. We were even allowed to level up to SL 10. There wasn't any objection to the event. I followed these rules, which were vetted on by many many people to be honest and fair for the SL and locations.

    Anyway, I hit my 100 kills and am moving on. We can still have a good discussion here, maybe discuss what people think are fair rules for the Burg. But, fair applies to both the host and the invader. Both have an equal share in this game. The host takes a risk by being human. But, the reward is summoning phantoms. So, the host does have more advantages than just their weapon AR.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:00 pm

    Myztyrio wrote:Well you could just gauge what level they are, then choose appropriate equipment for fair 1v1's
    "Hang on dude. What SL are you? Okay, cool. Give me a minute to swap all my weapons, armor and rings and then we can fight. Okay, i'm done. Now we can fight."

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by twigsterxd on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:33 am

    reim0027 wrote:I created this SL 1 build: http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=334564958385267631

    The weapons are all +5, shields and armor +3.  I've been invading exclusively in the Burg.  I've got 83 kills so far (going to 100) and it is great.  I really encourage you guys to invade at this ultra low level.

    Sure, you sometimes invade way up (ahem . . . billy) and you run into elemental low level builds.  But, the majority is awesome.  I feel this is one of the cores of DkS.  Invading low level, new players with a fair build.  Get them used to the fact that not everybody tried to gank them.

    Next up is camping in the burg with this build: http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=409004778847867366

    Same upgrades apply.  I'm not sure if I'll go to 100.  I fully expect twinked elemental mm builds to be much more frequent.

    EDIT: based on some confusion in the posts below, I'll clarify what I mean by the burg.  For me, I consider the Burg, Lower Undead Burg, and Parish to be part of the "Burg".  Rereading what I wrote, I can understand the confusion.

    GRIEFER!!!! devil 


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Ahhotep1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:15 pm

    Those of us who have been playing this game for awhile know what the Undead Burg can be like. Even an experienced player playing through the game (again) using only level appropriate weaps and gear will have something in reserve for the op players she or he knows they will encounter.

    But caught up the in middle of all of this "variety" in the Undead Burg are true new players  who have just arrived from the Undead Asylum and Firelink. It is easy enough to tell the difference most times. They are the innocent casualties of this blood fest in the Undead Burg. In these cases it is best to assume only that they are simply trying to get through the level as we all tried during our first playthough (remember?). And that they are as clueless as we were the first time (remember?).

    These players are the only people that I (personally) am concerned with and the only reason I periodically will do anti-griefing as a summon in the Burg, especially.

    Reim has addressed that particular aspect here. He modifies his play style when he realizes that he is up against a bonifide new player. That is all that matters regarding any "griefing" commentary.

    One last comment:
    Myztyrio's post is close to what should be done because it is easy to menu swap for most of us. As an anti-griefer in the Burg I always have level appropriate weaps equiped and gear to swap to when I realize that the vader is, in fact, as new as my noob host. But that's just me.

    And yes, I let my noob host engage the vader...for practice. But ultimately I will perform my white phantom duties and protect my host.

    Nuf said. Ok big grin

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:20 pm

    Reim has never said he changes his equipment to reflect their soul level. He doesn't have to, and he doesn't need to.

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Ahhotep1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:29 pm

    TooLeet wrote:Reim has never said he changes his equipment to reflect their soul level. He doesn't have to, and he doesn't need to.
    Read what I wrote Leet "modifies his play style". Now, it is time to let this go and move beyond this. Reim wishes to move beyond this...so allow this to happen by moving on, dude. twisted 

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:38 pm

    Ahhotep1 wrote:This use to be called and still is called griefing...if you are not swapping out to level appropriate weaps and gear when facing a newbie or even someone trying to do the level fair.

    Why? What has happened that makes this ok?

    The rational that it will teach newbies how to pvp/play Ds is faulty. It will teach them that it is ok, even cool to be a griefer.

    I don't understand this change in attitude. And it saddens me.
    You say things like this and when people respond you tell them to move on. If you wish for people to not respond to things you say and debate what you're saying you shouldn't put things like this out there without properly reading the OP.  

    And it's also ignorant of you to just completely dismiss what i'm saying by telling me to move on. You argue and argue and once someone puts out logical facts and information backing up their claim you tell them to move on. Right.

    Reim thought it was completely absurd that anyone would think he was griefing. In which i agree with him. Because for the fact alone that the Drake sword does more damage than his weapon is enough to understand he isn't griefing.

    Now we can move on. Read things correctly next time and don't dismiss what people say, dude. twisted 

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Ahhotep1 on Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:01 pm

    It's time to let this go Leet.

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Emergence on Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:03 pm

    Now that Reim has clarified the OP, let's stop the back and forth and get this topic back on to his initial observations and future plans.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by BagerX2 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:56 am

    Was doing sl1 invasions yesterday with +2 and 3 warrior gear and a battle axe. I would go in, give the person time to see me and kill the mobs arround, drop a gift of a weapon or other item, and then start fighting. During the fights i was going easy, not bs'ing unless they clearly turned arround and only did it once per fight, moving slow enough for them to get a few hits while i sized up their ability, allowed them to back off and heal, and amping up my movement as the fight went on.
    After a couple of punishing hits, a near death stunlock, or a bs they would generaly start getting better and dodge my initial swing and land punishing hits, block more effectively, and try to keep me away from thier sides. When i felt it was over, like they had no more flask, I would let them kill me and then send them a few tips.
    I feel that more people would get into and enjoy pvp if they get constructive practice like i was giving them rather than being completly destroyed by invaders to the point that they think they will never be able to compete with them. I think it also shows there is a good community in the game that is happy to play and help.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:39 pm

    That's a good idea. I may have to use it.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Qyntius on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:21 pm

    BagerX2 wrote:Was doing sl1 invasions yesterday with +2 and 3 warrior gear and a battle axe. I would go in, give the person time to see me and kill the mobs arround, drop a gift of a weapon or other item, and then start fighting. During the fights i was going easy, not bs'ing unless they clearly turned arround and only did it once per fight, moving slow enough for them to get a few hits while i sized up their ability, allowed them to back off and heal, and amping up my movement as the fight went on.
    After a couple of punishing hits, a near death stunlock, or a bs they would generaly start getting better and dodge my initial swing and land punishing hits, block more effectively, and try to keep me away from thier sides. When i felt it was over, like they had no more flask, I would let them kill me and then send them a few tips.
    I feel that more people would get into and enjoy pvp if they get constructive practice like i was giving them rather than being completly destroyed by invaders to the point that they think they will never be able to compete with them. I think it also shows there is a good community in the game that is happy to play and help.
    This sounds awesome! Do you get response and maybe request for more practice? Introducing people to Dark Souls PvP sounds like a lot of fun. Also how do I rep people?


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by BagerX2 on Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:54 pm

    Overall it is great fun.Sometimes i get responses and sometimes no. When i do its usually positive thanking me for the tips or the items i gave, only a few have wanted more practice. Also while doing this you will usually get some decent duels from geared summons and some fun high level fights to mix things up. One thing that sucks though is getting invaded by lvl 1 twink pyros while you wait to invade, happens fairly frequently.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by announakis on Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:18 am

    I gave shot at sl1 burg invasions a while ago
    all I came up with was that you should only wear un upgraded gear to have fair fun
    any upgraded gear is griefing
    fighting with un upgraded stuff is so much more fun!


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Qyntius on Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:54 am

    I am thinking of doing this with a sl20 in Parish, Depths, lowerburg and maybe even Blight Town


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Thxodore on Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:56 pm

    I have a SL20 that invades the Parish...Mostly I invade people with Phantoms, or I invade high level people that are waiting for Invaders. It's really hard to get a 'fair fight' anymore but when you're so used to people ganking you, there's a fine line between 'Griefing' and preparing yourself for 90% of PvP in DkS now, which is either 3v1 Gank hell fights or fighting an overly powered opponent.

    And honestly, if you don't have the balls to get killed a few times early on by a PvPer, why are you playing a game like DkS? You die early on to everything else, anyway.
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by announakis on Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:34 pm

    yep it is true that flanking has been plaguing the burg for a while now
    I don't mind being gabled when I red orb invade but those guys abuse the dueling red soapstone. that pisses me off and I make it a personal vendetta when they do that ^^


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by PyroElleh on Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:19 am

    Man, I wish I had been invaded by you guys when I went through the berg the first time.  :/ I was only human long enough to be invaded a few times, but every one was some jerk with massively upgraded gear.  They one-shoted me.  Every time.  Among the most memorable was one that had some sort of huge hammer, and the other was a caster that had obvious rare gear and was spamming some kind of higher-level spell (started attacking me while I had my back turned in the middle of enemies, too.)

    Because of that, I have spent almost the entire game hollow.  I'll even just suicide to avoid it.  It's incredibly discouraging... I want to get better at PvP (at least enough to fend of invaders), but I never had any decent kind of practice.  At SL 50, I'm definitely not going to try it now.  Maybe if I start a new playthrough I'll spend a lot of time human, just to get punished and figure out some strategy to deal with the a-holes...
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:45 pm

    Yeah, me too. It really really sucks that some people need to get their jollies off by coming you with a zaphander or just an ascended +5 and GC/BF.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:29 am

    I don't think too many veterans would be viable grief targets in the upper burg. If you bother going human form there at all (I haven't in ages) you can still easily just run through everything to the end. There'd be maybe a 15 second window where someone invading the usual spot could actually attack me before I went through Taurus fog.

    The other areas are more common for summons (well, parish is anyway), and a player is more likely to need help on gargs and capra than on Taurus.

    That said, "griefing" with +5 gear is a stretch, and any encounters with fully unupgraded gear are more than offset by superpower phantoms, campers, and people just looking for duels (in the case of the burg; if someone's hosting SL 100 or 120 you can invade them too big grin).

    Dark souls is a brutal game, and the online component was put in place for a reason. People can either summon a ton of help or play offline and the "griefer" problem vanishes, or in Reims case becomes punishingly unfair to him, not his opponent(s).


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:22 pm

    Yeah. Where do you draw the line between fair for the host and fair for the invader? It is a vague and ambiguous line. I've always thought it should be something like this. Fair game = items reasonably obtained from unlocking the next level (which is also ambiguous). For example, +5 weapons are easily obtainable after beating Taurus because you now have access to Andre. And, it is a reward for beating that level before the host.

    But, not everyone agrees. All I can say is I feel the chance of being able to summon an overpowered phantom (or even a phantom with weapons obtained by unlocking that level) is much higher than an invading phantom using weapons reasonably obtained after unlocking the next level.

    This is especially true in the burg, which is griefer central with zaphanders, HR BS fishers, and ascended +5s.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:24 pm

    My fire tempest cheesing would be good times in the burg too. Climb that ladder, then right as they get to the top jump back down to the base of it. If they slide down or try jumping off, time for the tempest! There's no where to go in time, either, and if you put your back to the wall there's no way they can BS you even if they roll out of the fall. You just have to be far enough away from a plunge attack and they're screwed.

    Tempest is one of my favorite anti gank tools for this reason. A LOT of invasion areas (forest included) have ladders near areas that can essentially trap one's escape, and the investment for a tempest is incredibly small in terms of stats.

    In other cases, such as the depths, if people camp in the spawn room they once again have basically nowhere to go in time, so slapping on some high poise gear (even if fat rolling in this case) and a crown of dusk is going to put a big hurting down. Bellowing + CoD tends to kill most builds outright. PW all but guarantees it but I don't like committing to that. Either way, tempest is easily among my favorite PvP spells just because of what it does to impatient gankers and its ability to screw people if trapped.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by PyroElleh on Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:11 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote: In other cases, such as the depths, if people camp in the spawn room they once again have basically nowhere to go in time, so slapping on some high poise gear (even if fat rolling in this case) and a crown of dusk is going to put a big hurting down.
    Ahaha...  Don't go spreading around ideas now. XD

    Twice (twice, I tell you!) I had a guy invade me in the Depths as I was waiting around for a summon in the bonfire room.  I wanted to co-op the Gaping Dragon cuz that fight is just long and boring.  He was dressed as the grim reaper with Gold Hemmed Black Robes and a scythe ("the" scythe? I dunno, it's the only one I've ever seen).  He blocked me into that tiny room.  No where to run, sadly.  The embarrassing thing was that I didn't learn my lesson the first time...

    On topic: compared to what I've faced in the past as a new player, I wouldn't begrudge Reim for using some upgraded starting gear.  It's more considerate than most people I've encountered, at any rate.

    Anyway.  I'm just going on tangents, so I'll just sidle on out then....

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