SL 1 invading in the Burg

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    reim0027
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    SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:27 pm

    I created this SL 1 build: http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=334564958385267631

    The weapons are all +5, shields and armor +3.  I've been invading exclusively in the Burg.  I've got 83 kills so far (going to 100) and it is great.  I really encourage you guys to invade at this ultra low level.

    Sure, you sometimes invade way up (ahem . . . billy) and you run into elemental low level builds.  But, the majority is awesome.  I feel this is one of the cores of DkS.  Invading low level, new players with a fair build.  Get them used to the fact that not everybody tried to gank them.

    Next up is camping in the burg with this build: http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=409004778847867366

    Same upgrades apply.  I'm not sure if I'll go to 100.  I fully expect twinked elemental mm builds to be much more frequent.

    EDIT: based on some confusion in the posts below, I'll clarify what I mean by the burg. For me, I consider the Burg, Lower Undead Burg, and Parish to be part of the "Burg". Rereading what I wrote, I can understand the confusion.


    Last edited by reim0027 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by GrinTwist on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:35 pm

    Sounds like fun, I actually made a build a while back like this but it was made for upper b-town and the burg too. I mostly cosplayed as a heavily armored Astorian Knight, it was a lot of fun.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:14 am

    I usually leave all my armour unupgraded, players still using starting weapons just do no damage otherwise. Plus on a normal playthrough I never upgrade my armour until well into the game.
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by hey its andres on Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:32 am

    What's fun is using weapons like the dark hand as your main offensive. Heck, I have a light crossbow on my lvl 1 DW. On a separate occasion I used bandit's armor upgraded to +5 only and people hardly did any damage at all, excluding veterans and hackers.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Solid_WolF on Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:50 pm

    I might try making a Lvl 1 build just for fun. But I have to be careful not to go overboard with it.
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Sentiel on Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:16 pm

    Having +5 gear in Burg is OP against new guys. You'll dish out around three times more damage than they can (counting in armor as well). If that Ghost Blade is also +5, then it's probably capable of insta killing on backstab, or at least reducing their HP by 3/4, or more. 

    If we're talking a honest to bone newbie, or even someone who already cleared the game, but haven't mastered it yet, then they will have +0 everything.
    Hardly anyone will spare hours of farming titanite Shards in Burg and go back to Griggs (if they even know about him) to upgrade at least their weapon to +5.
    That's Parish, Andre bonfire area territory, not Burg.

    That said, I do agree with your reason behind this all. Newbies should be tought how to PvP from experience by fighting against someone they actually stand a chance against. Getting one shotted will only lead them to leave PvP alone, or resort to cheating.

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Ahhotep1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:15 pm

    This use to be called and still is called griefing...if you are not swapping out to level appropriate weaps and gear when facing a newbie or even someone trying to do the level fair.

    Why? What has happened that makes this ok?

    The rational that it will teach newbies how to pvp/play Ds is faulty. It will teach them that it is ok, even cool to be a griefer.

    I don't understand this change in attitude. And it saddens me.

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:44 pm

    No. No. I'm using obtainable items from the start. I barely use the ghost blade (I prefer the reinforced club). Pretty much the only time I use it is when the host or phantoms are BS fishing. My weapons barely do any damage. My armor, and main weapons can be obtained very easily (the ghost blade is an exception, but it is obtainable and I barely use it).

    TBH, I'm hurt. Seriously. I would never intentionally grief. Please do not assume my weapons are OP if you haven't tried it. All you have to do to upgrade my weapons/armor is beat The Taurus Demon, or just have the master key, and you can have the titanite shards. Even easier if you get the drake sword for farming. And, BTW, the Drake Sword is more powerful than my reinforced club.

    Again, I have every right to upgrade my weapons, and they are barely upgraded at all. To upgrade my ghost blade, the twinkling titanite shards are not difficult to obtain. I'm following the thread in my sig. We even had an event with those rules, and I didn't get attacked like this for sponsoring it, and you could upgrade your SL to 10.

    Plus, I'm invading not only in the Burg. I'm also invading the lower undead burg, Sunlight bonfire, and the parish. I guess I call all of that the "Burg", so I can see the confusion there. Check my sig for the average SL there. I'm way out gunned.

    AND, many many invasions in the burg are against campers, since it is a high traffic PvP duelling site.

    On top of this, 75% of the time, I'm invading hosts with 1 or 2 phantoms, some of them much higher than me, many with elemental weapons. Before you get all pissy with me, why don't you actually try what I'm doing and see for yourself?


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 pm

    I don't think Reim in any way, shape, or form is going out there and completely annihilating new/newer to the game guys. He has a +5 Reinforced Club and a +5 Ghost blade. He could be using an elemental club with hornet ring backstabbing everyone. Or black flame. But he's not. This isn't griefing. That is obviously not his intentions. 

    I wish when i started playing some guy invaded me giving me a fair fight and not killing me in one hit, rather than being invaded by elemental weapons in maxed out gear ninja flipping everyone and frustrating the sh!t out of me. He's not even using a maxed out pyro glove.

    Like seriously? Look Skyward 


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:50 pm

    The only thing that may be considered too powerful is the Ghost Blade, and I barely use it. My Reinforced Club +5 combined with bare stats doesn't do a lot of damage, and is easy to BS (since it mainly has vertical swings).


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by CrackSouls on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:53 pm

    I witnessed you fighting Billy. So freakin' funny. Sl125 versus SL1.



    I like your idea, reim. Random invasions is what they wanted in Dark Souls. I remember Demon's Souls well for them. They were fun, intense, and added a lot of depth to that game. There was a lot less twinking in those days. I was very disappointed with Dark Souls for invasions after launch. So much griefing... I still don't understand it to this day.


    Only thing I would change is to not upgrade your armour. Most starting toons and new players don't upgrade theirs (from what I've seen) so you shouldn't either, to keep it on par.
    Other than that I say keep it up! Do you have any recording abilities? It would be nice to see some footage of fair low level invasions.


    Edit: I think I may take back what I said about not using upgraded armour. I forgot that you probably have to deal with a lot of White's with +10.


    Last edited by CrackSouls on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:54 pm

    I see no problem with it. The club does 268 AR and the Ghost blade does 167 AR. Those are very small numbers. 

    Also, like Reim would openly post on the forum that he is griefing new members. Look at the AR numbers. Look at the equipment. Look at the build. His OP explains it all. He's showing new guys the good side of Dark Souls.


    And one more thing. Why can't he upgrade his armor? That makes no sense. 

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Ahhotep1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:59 pm

    I've said what I said and it stands. Regardless of how you wish to rationalize this. I don't grief. So no, I will not be vading the burg op. But I do anti-grief frequently since there are many new players still coming thru the burg. Who are having to deal with griefers.

    Now, I will not argue because I do not wish to.



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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:02 pm

    Since you won't try it, then you really won't know.  80 damage per hit (in many cases) is pathetic.  The main thing I get is bleed.

    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, ahho.

    EDIT: I also want to say this. I unlock gates for the hosts I invade, if they haven't already done so. Hopefully, it'll make it easier for them. And, if I invade the same person a few times and beat them a few times, I'll drop a humanity for them and BC out, or I'll offer to help them beat the level/boss.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:06 pm

    No one is arguing. It's debating. This is simply not the definition of griefing. I've had an SL1 at NG+++. You're basically saying if used that to invade in the Burg/Parish i'm griefing. I earned the right to invade with upgraded gear. Plus, he is not using anything OP.

    +5 weapons and +3 armor and a pyro glove is not OP.


    Praise the Sun 



    Edit: The AR ratings on the weapon in the Mugen are +15. So those numbers are not even right because he said he is using +5 weapons. So the numbers are actually a lot smaller than that.

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:04 am

    Took a log of my invasions in the Burg (just the Burg only) tonight.


    • 34 invasions
    • 14 wins (41%)
    • 16 campers (47%)
    • 13 hosts had at least 1 phantom (38%)
    • 20 had way overpowered weapons/armor (59%) - 59% of invasions (that I saw), not 59% total people.
    • 10 true questing fights (29%). True questing = not camping, and using gear appropriate for the level (attainable weapons/armor and no elementals).


    Less than 1/3 of my fights in the Burg tonight were true questing fights. The rest were staged fights (camping/ganking) or someone with OP gear. And, it gets worse as you get further into the Burg.

    My damage for the true questing (that I noted) averaged 88 (probably a little more) with 1H R1 Reinforced club. Some were 150, others were less than 80.

    To me, that reinforces not griefing. In fact, I was "griefed" twice more often than I obtained true questing invasions. There's some objective data. Where do you guys think the damage line should be to not be griefing? 80? 70? 50? Or, is 88 acceptable?


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Myztyrio on Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:53 am

    Well you could just gauge what level they are, then choose appropriate equipment for fair 1v1's


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:41 am

    This is why I've never really liked burg invasions. Everyone's gonna have unupgraded everything, or upgraded everything. I much prefer parish, where I'll invade with +5 weapons and unupgraded armor (pretty much what I have on my playthroughs at that point).
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Sentiel on Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:31 am

    I'm not sure if the comment about not trying it yourself was also aimed at me, but I'll let you know that I have a SL 1 for many months and occasionally use it to invade in Parish. I've noticed a huge difference between the damage of +0 and +5 weapons on honest gear hosts. That's why, for the sake of keeping it fair, I used +0 gear as well. The fights were much more fair. With this logic, I'd have the right to mod my weapons to +20 when I happen to run into gankers with +15 stuff? C'mon.
    I also ditched Reinforced Club, because nobody can tank it with starter gear, it has infinite stunlock and they can't even block it thanks to bleed. So in the end I ended with basic Pyro Flame with starting Pyromancies, Hand Axe +0 and Heater Shield +0, 0 Poise armor. But I did have a +5 Chaos Dagger in case I invade a high SL, or twinks. I'd never use it on legit players though.

    You can compare the damage you do with the damage you receive and you'll see there's a lot of difference. Or just try hitting them with +5 and +0 versions of the same weapon.

    That's what I call low level invading. Even +5 weapons are unfair at this point. Go invade with those by Gargoyles if you want to call it fair. If not, you're just another griefer, that only tries to not look as one by not using the very max gear. Lastly, Reim, you're one of the best PvPers out there, so truth be told, even if you went and fought with Broken Straight Sword, you'd still be OP by yourself. Reim OP, needs nerf. Just saying. big grin

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by FinPeku on Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:34 am

    Reim you dirty griefer, how dare you invade with +5 gear!

    Come on guys... If we're talking about a veteran player invading new players, there really is no way of making it fair. Every time you invade and kill a quester they might consider you a griefer, no matter what you do and how you play. I would imagine the point of using +5 weapons is just to make the invasions more interesting when you can't oneshot everyone. If you think that's griefing then ok, but we don't have to say "your way of doing that sucks, and this is how you should do it:..."


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:09 am

    88 (give or take) damage a hit is so OP. Look Skyward 



    People are obviously not reading all the posts correctly. So there is no point in debating. I'm gonna take an elemental Mura to the Burg. I hope i run into this "griefer" everyone calls Reim with his OP as sh!t +5 reinforced club. 

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:43 pm

    Besides having some great duels, my hope is this. They will see my equipment and realize you can get it from the start. It might encourage them to use it and to build their character up before going through the tedium of hit, run, hit run, until the enemies are dead. I was getting creamed early on, so I did some research, looked on the wiki and realized I could do so much before Taurus. If I were not having difficulty from the start, it might not have encouraged me to learn about the game early.

    I still contend my build is fair, and with a little running around and farming (and knowledge which should be strived for anyway with a game like this), an average player should be able to have my gear from the start. That is why I claim not griefing. Also, I'm not really using the Ghost Blade much at all.

    I also plan on doing 2 more things. Having a SL 20 BKS build to camp and see what kind of invaders invade me throughout the burg, lower burg, and parish. And, I also intend on using my SL 1 invasion build to coop and get 100 boss kills.


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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:30 pm

    TooLeet wrote:88 (give or take) damage a hit is so OP. Look Skyward 
    Your post seemed very dismissive, so I ran a few numbers. I created a cleric because the mace is on the higher end of damage for starting characters and is similar to the reinforced club. I set it to level 1 with his gear to get the defenses, and then tested two scenarios:

    1. The cleric has put nothing in strength (12), 1H R1 AR is 100.
    2. The cleric is SL10 and put it all in strength (20), 1H R1 AR is 123.

    I then tested at 0, 40 and 83 humanity for the defenses using minicalc. All damage numbers are 1H R1.

    20str cleric:
    00 humanity: 56
    40 humanity: 33
    83 humanity: 23

    12str cleric:
    00 humanity: 36
    40 humanity: 20
    83 humanity: 15

    For fun (and probably real best case), here are the numbers if they got the drake sword already:

    00 humanity: 118
    40 humanity: 91
    83 humanity: 68

    Now it sounds like he's invading with full humanity (using it as a counter), though I could be wrong. If that is the case, he's still doing a good amount more damage even in the very best case scenario. And around 4x the damage+ if they haven't got the drake sword.

    Add to this 62 poise vs probably close to 0, and bleed.

    Now this post probably makes it seem like I care a lot more than I do. I don't really have that big of a problem with these invasions, it's better than invading with hornet ring elementals. It just seemed wrong that you'd dismiss 88 damage because it doesn't sound like a big number.
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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by Leet on Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:15 pm

    I'm not understanding your point. He posted tests, calculations, and crunched numbers already. What do you mean i dismissed 88 damage? Clearly my post was sarcasm. If you haven't been following, i am on his side. 88 damage is obviously not OP so why you did tests and calculations is beyond me.

    Edit: I get what you're saying now, but regardless of the tests you ran, 88 on average damage is not high at all. I'm not gonna do a bunch of tests and crunch numbers but for example an SL5 (he has invaded people a lot higher than this. this is just an example) Knight has a starting HP of 659. By even SL10-15, people usually level up their VIT so they're not so fragile. But, even at 659HP, 88 (on average, also depends on armor + humanity) is nothing.

    We'll just use that as the example as we have been. If he ran into an SL5 Knight and we say he does 88 damage per hit, he'd have to hit him 8 times to kill him. Obviously he is gonna be running into higher SL builds and also will be running into white phantoms. 88 damage a hit is clearly not a lot. 

    Also, he is invading in the Burg, Lower Burg, and Parish. By the time someone hits Lower Burg, and Parish you should have some upgraded stuff. And some humanity. He's on equal playing grounds as everyone else. If not, he is at a disadvantage from actual griefers co-oping in the places he's invading. 

    Conclusion is, 88 damage a hit on average is a mosquito bite. Maybe a nice fat blunt hitting mosquito, but a mosquito nonetheless. He's not griefing. Period.

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    Re: SL 1 invading in the Burg

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:34 pm

    Well I'll start by saying that the recent edit including lower burg and parish makes a huge difference. In parish and lower burg you can expect a +5 weapon, which removes any debate on weapons.

    All of my comments have been in reference to the burg specifically. I find it a terrible place to invade because you're only going to invade people with unupgraded everything (you have a huge advantage) or people later in the game (you have a huge disadvantage).

    Either way, you can't just say 88 damage is nothing without comparing it to the opponents damage output. If you do 88 damage on average and your (questing) opponents do less than 20 damage on average, 88 damage is overpowered.

    Obviously these calculations don't work outside the burg though. But my opinion is and has been that invading with a build that does 4x their damage, has bleed and has poise when they most likely have none is overpowered.

    Edit: I should note that I play on PC, which as far as I can tell seems to have more new players and less gankers/twinks.

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