Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

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    Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:42 am

    I was going thru the forum this past week, (old and new threads), and I've noticed a lot of threads with the titles pertaining to bringing something back to Dark Souls. Not to bad mouth a fellow former but I saw a thread that was discussing luck and bringing it back to Dark2.
    I thought about this and decided to make a thread explaining a few things to people and was hoping others can add to this.
    It seems a lot of people are mixing stuff up when discussing either game. What you need to remember is they are 2 different games. Saying that Dark Souls is a sequel to Demon Souls is wrong IMO. And here's why;
    No where in any lore or on any other site does it mention that Dark is a sequel. Demons starts in Boletaria while Dark starts in Lordran. No where does it say that they are the same world, (planet). How can they be connected? In Demons, you either sleep with the Old One or you cover the whole world with the dark fog. In Dark, you become keeper of the fire. Two totally different paths. Also, if you look at the videos being posted about Dark, they sort of show the same areas as the 1st one. And, since we ALL know that there is a Demons 2 coming, how can Dark be related to them? For all we know, Demons could start in the Old Ones world.
    Now about the stats, Luck is a Demons stat where in Dark it wasn't put in. Creating a thread asking for luck to return wouldn't fit as it's not a Dark stat. As it was explained in that thread.

    Forgot some of the things I thought of but you get the point. Add anything you think would fit in this thread.

    Also, I would just like to say a lot of people lately have been spamming and derailing threads which is against the rules. This is a warning, do that here and I WILL REPORT YOU.
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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Aigaios on Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:58 am

    Most people should know that Dark Souls is not a sequel to Demon's Souls but a spiritual successor.
    In my opinion you are wrong, Dark Souls as a spiritual successor of Demon's Souls and inherits almost everything from it. Its gameplay, theme, style and online are the same however in many parts improved therefore even if the games do not share the same universe or as you say there are not on the same planet it is still perfectly understandable why people would want the luck system to return in Dark Souls II.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Odinbear on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:02 am

    I personally saw a lot of similarities in the 2 games, like bosses and areas that were introduced in DS and " made better " in DkS. At first I thought DkS Was just an improved remake of DS but after playing both through to the end, I see that the "story" sets them apart. Because of my initial observation and impression, I can see where and how someone could see DkS as a sequel to DS.  

    That being said, it is my humble opinion that the developers borrowed heavily from DS to create DkS, I think their intentions were to make a harder remake of the same game, but with different elements and storyline. While doing this, they removed the NEXUS And created the BONFIRE Which ISthe primary thing that sets the games apart in both storyline and "fit n feel". Both games are very very similar, but both are also built so as to have the opportunity to expand to a sequel.  

    Now here is where I derail the thread.... twisted     Why is this pony05 a emoticon?  ( just kidding')


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:06 am

    HA HA Odin..reported silly
    joking bro.

    You thinking the way I am but you have a way with words. You said it a little better. Just a little big grin
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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:46 pm

    Yeah, From Soft recycles themes as far back as King's Field. Still a completely different game but still has the Moonlight Sword. I don't think they got rid of luck to identify Dark, but rather because it was a useless skill. They added Resistance which is pretty useless in the whole of a build. FROM can and will mix and match concepts from every game they make, the retain the ability and right too. Nothing wrong with that even if games are different entirely. More or less just reimaginings of the very same concepts, because at the core-theme Dark and Demons really tell the same story. 

    And even though they are separate universes, one can fairly use patterns from Demons or Dark to identify subjects and objects in the other because they are of the same brood and consistent creative process of FROM's Writers.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Odinbear on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:06 pm

    Luck is incorporated a " different way" in DkS. And they added resistance which isn't useless in gameplay, since it provides defense pts. Better implementation, IMO .


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:28 pm

    I mean as a skill it's not usually leveled as part of a build, rather compensated for by armor, shield, and ring resistance and Mosses. In relation to other skills, it's useless, IMO. It makes more sense as a stat feature like in Demons. Or merged with Endurance, which still makes sense for resistance.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:52 pm

    I don't think it's a bad thing to compare the two or have a desire for mix and match to get the best experience.  Both games are indeed very similar but more importantly is the fact that (blasphemy ahead), despite being the two best games of all time in my opinion:

    They're far from perfect.  For example, luck in Demon's.  With my first character I leveled it like crazy at the end hoping to get a Pure Bladestone.  After two weeks before I got it I can safely say that luck was not implemented to my satisfaction.  Condemnation number two and one I fell folly to again after playing Dark for so long and returning to Boletaria...heavy shields are pointless for just about anything.  My Tower Shield was no more beneficial to stopping attacks than my Kite Shield +2.  

    With Dark, um...lag.  PS3 network issues.  The buttocks of great creatures being somehow a thing.

    In addition to the King's Field games mentioned above, From is not averse to using elements across even more unrelated games.  Armored Core games also usually have a version of the Moonlight Sword.  

    What do demon fighting heroes in armor of yore have to do with giant fighting robots?  Whatever From wants them to have in common that's what!

    The good news is that, regardless of whether you want to see "x" or "y" added or mixed, the end result is we're all still talking about this series which is a testament to it's hold on our collective psyche.

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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:00 pm

    I appreciate your responses guys but you are ALL missing my point in my OP.
    I'll try to explain it a better way. Hope this helps.
    We have a Dark Souls 2 section that has a thread, (not sure of exact title), what would you like to see return to Dark Souls. The reason I mentioned the luck thread was because it was fresh in my mind.
    Here's an easier explanation;
    What I would like returned to Dark Souls - Resistance - why? - because . . . . .
    Not What would I like returned to Dark Souls - Luck - Why? - because it was a good stat in Demon Souls.
    Wanting things like certain stats or weapons or moves from Demons doesn't make sense to me because they aren't in the ORIGINAL Dark Souls.
    Once we get a confirmation of Demons 2 - then we can have a section created and add that thread.

    I hope this makes better sense as to what I was trying to say.
    I realize they are from the same type of genre but they are 2 different games with different stats, weapons, armours etc.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:55 pm

    I think most of us understood but don't see why there needs to be exclusivity. So in addition to the Moonlight Blade across almost every From game I think there's,

    Patches. Different game but taken directly to Dark. Leeroy is a playful jab at another game entirely. Maneaters and Bell Gargoyles, Dragons above a walkway, etc etc.

    Borrowing isn't inherently a bad thing is all some of us are saying. I get your point that they're different systems but there's no reason to think that DSII needs the same stats as the first. Personally, I'll let From make the game they have the vision of and I'll go from there.

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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Sneezer on Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:46 am

    Demon's was the foundation and the first try. It was sloppy, underdeveloped, and not all that polished in comparison to Dark Souls. With the change in producer, and the desire to make a spiritual successor to the underrated game, the FROM team naturally borrowed from their past work. 

    Having played both, I'd say that Dark Souls is naturally better. Though I will also say that Demon's has a few features and vibes that I wish Dark Souls had.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by xSomax on Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:12 pm

    I believe the 2 worlds are at least connected. In much the same way north america is connected to europe. They are both in the same world, byt vastly different areas. My proof, if it can be called that, is xanthous king jeremiah. In DeS un the tower of latria a female npc tells a story of a yellow clad king that went to foreign lands to conquer, but became a demon. In dark souls, a beung reminiscent of that tale is found. Xanthous king jeremiah. His clothes are yellow, and xanthous actually means yellow-wearing. My second point is that he uses the chaos version fire tempest, a demonic magic. With lordrans distorted time flow its even more possible. Just my 2 cents.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:28 pm

    Well when it comes to the stats and systems, Darks was born from Demons, and if a system or stat feature was a good idea in Demons I say it fair to nominate a 'return' of it to DarkSouls2. Or a spiritual return, rather. I don't see the offense, separate game or no, it's about modifying the shared and evolving combat systems. If luck or any other skill/stat has a place in the combat system then why not discuss it's potential implementation. I'm sure Demons Souls 2 if/when it comes out will use mechanical-elements built upon in Dark Souls 2 just as Dark Souls was built from Demons, if its a successful system element than why not?


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by twigsterxd on Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:40 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Well when it comes to the stats and systems, Darks was born from Demons, and if a system or stat feature was a good idea in Demons I say it fair to nominate a 'return' of it to DarkSouls2. Or a spiritual return, rather. I don't see the offense, separate game or no, it's about modifying the shared and evolving combat systems. If luck or any other skill/stat has a place in the combat system then why not discuss it's potential implementation. I'm sure Demons Souls 2 if/when it comes out will use mechanical-elements built upon in Dark Souls 2 just as Dark Souls was built from Demons, if its a successful system element than why not?
    But, if FROM doesn't own the rights or something like that to those stats, (as in programming), they can't put something from Demons into Dark 2 since the creator has nothing to do with Dark 2.
    Also, if there is in fact a Demons 2, those stats would probably be put there.
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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:14 pm

    I don't think there can be copyright on something like that, as countless games have stats and mechanics to various similar extents. And given all the already-borrowed content between the games, I don't see it as an issue, but I could be wrong. In either case I wouldn't fear Demons and Dark systems being too similar, as I think FROM will want to give them more prominent identities in the end. So I see what you're saying, but I don't see the harm in discussing favorable elements to return or spiritually return.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Aigaios on Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:16 pm

    Yes, Sony owns the rights to Demon's Souls. But it was From Software that created Demon's Souls. They created Demon's Souls as the spiritual successor to the King's Field franchise that was also created by From Software and Dark Souls as the spiritual successor to Demon's Souls. If Sony chooses to create a direct sequel to Demon's Souls but not have From Software as the primary developer then it is still highly likely that they will help develop it. The main difference in Demon's Souls II, if it ever comes out is that it will be a Playstation exclusive, it will have a higher budget and a lot more people working on it.


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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:43 pm

    I've noticed so many similarities between the two games, it's difficult to separate the influence of one over the other.  A few that come to mind:

    Blighttown / Valley of Defilement (even the enemy types - mosquitos, trolls with clubs, etc)
    Use of boss "pairs" - The twin gargoyles / Maneater especially
    The dogs in both games, obviously
    Fool's Idol / Pinwheel - the "cloning" boss
    Skelly Babies / Plague Babies
    Crystal Lizards
    Cragspider / Man Centipede (just listen to the dying sounds of both - nearly identical)
    Mind Flayer / Pisaca
    Slugs used in both swamps
    Mass of Souls / Prisoner Horde (very similar design type)

    These are mostly design similarities, showing that they kept the template for many of the enemies, and simply added more variations and types in DkS.  But as far as the lore goes, I agree, there is not a lot of connection between the two stories. 

    The basic framework was similar - one had a fog that wreaked havoc, the other had "dark" from the Abyss.  All they did was alter the trope a bit for the second game, but still stuck with the concept that something haunting and unnatural seeped into the world and brought evil to it.
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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by twigsterxd on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:04 pm

    Aigaios wrote:Yes, Sony owns the rights to Demon's Souls. But it was From Software that created Demon's Souls. They created Demon's Souls as the spiritual successor to the King's Field franchise that was also created by From Software and Dark Souls as the spiritual successor to Demon's Souls. If Sony chooses to create a direct sequel to Demon's Souls but not have From Software as the primary developer then it is still highly likely that they will help develop it. The main difference in Demon's Souls II, if it ever comes out is that it will be a Playstation exclusive, it will have a higher budget and a lot more people working on it.
    I don't know where it would be but there was a discussion about the developer of Demon Souls. Can't remember his name but if I can find time tomorrow I'll search for it and link it. All I have to do is search the boss man's posts because he explained something similar to what you said. But, I don't know how he worded it and I don't want to post something I'm not 100% sure on. Once I find it, it will back up what I'm trying to say but be explained better. There's just something I'm missing that I'm not explaining right. Like I said, I'll search tomorrow when I have more time.

    @back lot - you gamer you lol
    I've never noticed that stuff and NOW, I gotta check it out lololol
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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Fayt on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:48 am

    Back Lot Basher wrote:I've noticed so many similarities between the two games, it's difficult to separate the influence of one over the other.  A few that come to mind:

    Blighttown / Valley of Defilement (even the enemy types - mosquitos, trolls with clubs, etc)
    Use of boss "pairs" - The twin gargoyles / Maneater especially
    The dogs in both games, obviously
    Fool's Idol / Pinwheel - the "cloning" boss
    Skelly Babies / Plague Babies
    Crystal Lizards
    Cragspider / Man Centipede (just listen to the dying sounds of both - nearly identical)
    Mind Flayer / Pisaca
    Slugs used in both swamps
    Mass of Souls / Prisoner Horde (very similar design type)
    Not to mention dreglings and hollows, they share similar movesets.
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    Re: Dark vs Demon....Things people should think about before posting

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:21 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:
    @back lot - you gamer you lol
    I've never noticed that stuff and NOW, I gotta check it out lololol
    It's amazing how much of the design got carried over.  I don't think it's a bad thing, since we all loved the first game, and they didn't skimp on the new content at all.  And Fayt is right on the hollows and dreglings movesets...very similar.  A lot of DS's world 1 influenced the Burg / Lower Burg and Parish.

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