Gender Issue Discussion

Serious_Much wrote:We were riffing with each other.. You might call it a string of humourous statements and ripostes. Despite whatever I call it though, I fail to see the issue with a bit of non-serious jokes on the matter

The problem isn't that you were joking, setting aside that it adds nothing to the discussion and, as I've stated, intentionally or not, serves to propagate a rift between genders. The problem is that those are real ideas men and women have that propagate sexism, towards both genders, and that it's harmful to the cause by using it, jokingly or not. You can talk about how you're joking with a friend when calling one another derogatory terms that denote one is sexually attracted to the same sex, and it could very well be a joke, but it's not a healthy thing to, intentionally or not, propagate.

If your thoughts or actions existed in a vacuum, there wouldn't be much of a problem, but realise that there are people out there who may not have fully formed an opinion on something, and someone joking about that topic to them, without seriously addressing it, does inadvertently affect their perception on that topic. Opinions are by far not solid and can change, I'm not saying that one's opinion will be formed by jokes and will stay that way. I'm saying that thinking in that manner and talking about it like that, jokingly or not, is a way to propagate that issue. It may serve as empowering to some to deconstruct a previously negative opinion and use it satirically, but you don't exist in a vacuum.

TL;DR: Think about what you're inadvertently causing by joking about sexism in that manner.

I see what Plastic is saying and I think he's got a great point.  I don't read what he's wrote as saying we shouldn't speak out or label things as harmful.  Or even not to try to bring the message to the creator of the work.  I like the South Park analogy a lot actually and it sums up what he's saying pretty well.  In that episode the parent does NOTHING but attack the creator of the offensive/harmful work and misses out on key opportunities to teach her children right from wrong.  

The episode is from the perspective that she wants to protect her kids from harmful things. But instead she exposes them to more of what she was fighting against by not being there.  

Further implications from the episode are:
A: Even if the creator of the one work was persuaded to stop what they were doing, it is still necessary to teach developing minds about it rather than hide it away and shield them
B: Attacking the source does nothing to change motivations of the human beings involved.  The creators may or may not stop, however it is external pressure if anything that causes change, and not an intrinsic motivation. Also, the children she wanted to protect did not lose their interest in the material and used the opportunity to circumvent supervision to obtain it.  


All of these things lead to what Plastic was hinting at.  While you can (and should) speak out about things and let creators know your displeasure, it is less likely to cause long term change as their personalities and habits are often already set.  The greatest change for anything long term is to develop younger minds who have not yet had the majority of their beliefs chiseled in.  

Neither of these is mutually exclusive and as a whole I've generalized a great deal. For example, everything is on a spectrum and dependent on specific instances.  Some things can be considered milder than others (incidental, accidental, etc.) and the best approach might lean more towards discussions among ourselves such as this one or with our kids. This would be the "education/discussion" solution.  

Other instances are more flagrant whether they're intentional or reckless or are simply on a grander scale.  With these instances there could be a larger need to push toward the "protest/complaint" solution.  

This particular conversation I feel is somewhere in the middle.  From what I have read, the art design is intended as a throwback/homage or whatever you wanna call it and I would be hard pressed to call it deliberate.  I would also hesitate to call it as flagrant as some other things that are mainstream (I'd just like to throw the name "Bratz" out there again).  However, as Fex has hinted, this in no way negates the effect of the end result.  

As a result, it's certainly fair to let the creators know how we feel. You won't see me painting a sign and standing outside their office but I'm more than happy to vocalize (or write) my opinions to anyone who will listen (or read).  But like Plastic is trying to say I think, I also need to be vigilant in my explanations to my daughter as we face the bombardment of similar media.  

To me it's a synergy of approaches, with neither strategy being excluded, that will be most likely to cause change.

densetsushun wrote:

TL;DR: Think about what you're inadvertently causing by joking about sexism in that manner.

I'll spare you a long winded reply. my TLDR is that you're blowing it out of proportion, no two ways about it.

Just a thought though. If everything that is said in jokes influenced people completely then just according to a couple episodes of southpark I watched today, people would think you need to be poor and stupid to enjoy nascar and everyone would think the Catholic church would be run by a giant alien spider.

nsane32 wrote:the world is dark and terrible thus is human nature never to be changed. A humans strives to be perfect even when it is impossible and what is perfect in the eyes of one is imperfect in the eyes of many. This discussion and a thousand others wouldnt change the world, you can educate yourselfs on the problems within you, but that wont change human nature.

That is invalid thinking which has been soundly disproven over the course of human history. Humanity has evolved and continues to evolve and shifts in consciousness are factually documented throughout the anthropological record of homo sapiens. This is an unarguable point, please do not inject conjecture into the discussion.

Yes exactly Skare. That sums up a lot of what I've been trying to say. I've done a lot of backspacing this morning trying to articulate it and I think failing to some degree, but that largely was it. Regardless of any other reaction I just can't think that providing people with tools to better discern for themselves for when the time comes that they're presented with the issue would ever be a bad thing, but by solely projecting the issue onto whoever communicated it sometimes could be due to the issues of intention, and subjectivity. I'm saying that personally that's where my energy would be spent. I think all said and done you as parents, and I if I ever am a parent, have more power to influence your children then any video game ever could.

Serious_Much wrote:I'll spare you a long winded reply. my TLDR is that you're blowing it out of proportion, no two ways about it.

You're entitled to think that and vocalise that. I'm also entitled to vocalising my opinion on that. I think we can both agree to this.

Serious_Much wrote:
Just a thought though. If everything that is said in jokes influenced people completely then just according to a couple episodes of southpark I watched today, people would think you need to be poor and stupid to enjoy nascar and everyone would think the Catholic church would be run by a giant alien spider.

You're comparing what I said to a series that, while I find oftentimes tow the line on being offensive for the sake of being offensive, tries to use every episode to satirically give social commentary on real developments. I in no way think South Park influences one's opinion on the scale that you're talking about (which by the way is an extrapolation of my point, but I'll ignore that), but I've also stated that there are always issues where people have unformed opinions, and jokes do in some way affect how they perceive something.

Think of it like this, if the first way you come into contact with an issue is that it's to be joked about, then what will your opinion of it be in that instance? Without properly discussing something you're joking about, or active research on the recipient's side, joking about something negatively impacts their opinion forming as the first thing they come into contact with is someone making light of an issue. That doesn't mean that it's the end all, be all and that their opinions will be set, and I've stated that in my previous post. I've stated that my opinion is that one should be wary of what kind of tone or message they'll inadvertently propagate.

Regarding human nature I'd like to interject that I work with a segment of the population that has been, for most of them anyway, marginalized and pushed aside if not downright abused for most of their lives.  If any group I've had regular contact with has a reason to be bitter and cynical about the world and therefore show their darker side, it would be this one.  But that's not the case.  Optimism and kindness are generally what I see.  

When I go anywhere I try to look as many people in the eye as I can and smile.  It's still amazing how many people will do it back if you give them a chance.  

There are bad apples and no one is close to perfect, but from my 32 years of experience, humanity is mostly good.  We could stand a few direction changes for sure....but good.


Plastic: I hope you're right. Otherwise my efforts on learning all the names (and some of the songs even) from Yo Gabba Gabba to better interact with my daughter have all been wasted  

All social change requires a two prong approach to be successful. First the individual must make a conscientious choice to adopt new norms. Secondly, institutions must adopt the new norms. So functionally time must be employed both inside the home and outside the home in a comparable measure. Statistically speaking, parental reinforcement is not consistently able to overcome image internalization if the societal institutions reinforce competing images. While we all wish and hope that being amazing parents to our children is enough, often times social pressures can overwhelm the mos vigilant of nuturing techniques. We really need to be diverting resources to both, even if "fighting city hall" seems to be an uphill battle that can't be won.

Copycat

I apologize profusely for this thread.  

@Den

My point was that a statement of such overblown proportions like saying a spider is head of the catholics, or that the reason women have developed resistance to pain being men, are on the same level- no one will take it seriously and no one will certainly believe it to be anything but false.

There is a line when something becomes so ridiculous that it is immune from being taken seriously. That is something my joke and south park examples have in common. Neither is taken seriously; neither has any lasting impact on people's opinions.

Arguing that my statement could have any impact on people's opinion is moot when it is already to ridiculous and overblown to be considered a serious opinion

Now all we are doing is filling up space which others are actually debating stuff which will have impact on others, so lets agree to disagree and leave the thread if we've got nothing better to say. We're debating over nothing  

I don't think there's a need to apologize Pendant. I, for one, think it's a good discussion. I don't think it's what you intended about the game but it's an opportunity for those of us who feel it's necessary to state our points and attempt to educate like we say is important.

It's been a little more heated than my "Your name is a color" thread I think, but I also feel that this community has enough respect floating around to get through this mostly unscathed.

I think regardless of how much we like to think that, on becoming adults, we're not our parents, we still end up being in a lot of ways. The older I get the more I see my mother's perspectives in myself, and it's because I was raised to see things the way she did, even when I was rebelling as a teenager I was probably doing it in the same ways she rebelled against her parents when she was. The importance of good vigilant parenting just can't be emphasized enough.

I'm not saying fighting city hall can't be done, I've just recently been an active part of it having hydrofracture drilling banned in my county, and I'm so so proud to have been a part of the fight. I just think the battle starts at home.

I think this thread is one of the more worthwhile we have ever had, and the tone of respect allows us to hsve a mature and honest discussion even if we become passionate. We disagree without indicting each other. These are important moments in human experience.

here here

Emergence wrote:I think this thread is one of the more worthwhile we have ever had, and the tone of respect allows us to hsve a mature and honest discussion even if we become passionate.  We disagree without indicting each other.  These are important moments in human experience.

O-okay then...

Just keep it civil! 

Agreed. I generally tend to stay away from discussions on these topics because of how ugly they can get, so my posting here to me indicates how civilised I see the discussion, regardless of the opinions and arguments in this thread.

Yeah I stayed out of it last night because I was afraid it might escalate, but by this morning pretty much everyone that was here represented a large group of people on the forum I know I can argue with without it getting out of hand, so I threw my hat into the ring. That's part of what keeps me coming back here. I can't have debates like that on facebook.

PlasticandRage wrote:I can't have debates like that on facebook.

Betcha YouTube and Twitter are worse. 

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:

PlasticandRage wrote:I can't have debates like that on facebook.

Betcha YouTube and Twitter are worse. 

My neurons commit suicide when I read discussions on any of those platforms.

I've never done the Twitter thing, but Youtube is terrible. You say something bad about something on a video with a large following and people become like packs of wild dogs over the course of a few seconds.

densetsushun wrote:

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:

PlasticandRage wrote:I can't have debates like that on facebook.

Betcha YouTube and Twitter are worse. 

My neurons commit suicide when I read discussions on any of those platforms.

I'm amazed you are still capable of whole body movement then

But agreed, facebook and twitter is a comedy sideshow. The amount of stupid things I see people write believing it's a profound point baffles me. Oh and the aggression, wow.

It's good to see we are civil enough to discuss something so contentious without resorting to all the bad stuff. Can't help but notice the average age of the discussion though

PlasticandRage wrote:Youtube is terrible.

I quite like the place.

Twitter has always been fine for me, except for the 140 character limit.

I've got to say Serious, I can agree with Den on his points.  Until you later said you were just riffing I thought those were things you two genuinely believed since I know people who say such things frequently.  You say that is hyperbole but those are common held beliefs where I live.  

Another issue is that some don't think joking like that is fine.  There are many arguments against some games like DLC Quest, or Dragon's Crown while the games may be doing it in a hyperbole matter to make fun of sexism.  I'm not saying Dragon's Crown does but people do interpret the game that way while everyone seems to go "No that's not fine."  

And then I find two people of the moderator team trying to use hyperbole for the point of a joke about sexism and it seems to just be the same thing.  That's how that comes off to me personally.

EDIT:  I should also mention and I've been wanting to say this for a while but was afraid of the back lash, we should probably split this thread.  There really should be a thread for gender talk if we want to talk about that, because we haven't been on topic for a long time.

Dragon's Crown has sexism, but the game isn't about it.  We haven't been talking about the Sexism in it for a while, we've been debating gender issues, trends in media, how media effects others, etc.  Not issues with the game itself, we've been incredibly off topic and not allowing people to talk about the game in the thread dedicated to it.  Imagine if someone made a GTA5 thread and rather than talking about GTA we just talked about violence in media for ten pages.