Gender Issue Discussion

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    Tolvo
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:49 am

    Yes I've heard of this, I was talking with someone about it a bit on twitter.  Frankly as mentioned in the article **** is a thing, you can write about it, talk about it, even joke about it.  The same can be said about anything.  However that doesn't just mean you should throw it around willy nilly or treat it similarly to death.

    Now I'll admit in my eyes they are the same level of awful, actually death referenced in material can send me convulsing, shivering, and have me crying.  But I'm an anomoly, people don't quite view death in that way on average so for general audiences my perception really shouldn't be considered.  **** though, that's something people have lived through, it is something people will often consider worse and fear far more.  It effects most people a lot more than death does and in different ways.  

    In general I hate how **** is treated in media.

    Male on Female, plot device.

    Female on Male, comedy.

    Male on Male, generally for comedy.

    Female on Female, much more rare and sometimes even played for sex appeal.  

    Now, in writing everything is a plot device.  I can sort of understand that half of his argument, but to that the main issue would be being a "One Trick Pony."  If everyone uses **** in the exact same way without changing the formula or intent in the work you're just being a hack and doing nothing original, just the same old crap.  This is me looking at it more from the perspective of a writer than anything else.  Everything is a tool, but tools can be used in various ways and you don't have to use them for every project.  When you use one tool over and over and for almost the same exact purpose, you aren't properly using said tool.

    Also your second link didn't work.

     EDIT:  It is also pretty saddening to see a much more successful writer than I am using a tool which I have also used in such a limited way.  It's incredibly insensitive and honestly just pandering.
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:23 am


    Nobody asked them to agree. Tolvo pointed out he was not contributing to the discussion because he simply said "well I think blah" without any backing, justification or reasoning. "Honestly dissenting opinions" are just opinions, the same as "honestly agreeable opinions". If you want to participate in a reasonable debate, you will present backing to those opinions or you will be told you aren't adding anything. This is rule n.1 of any proper debate process.
    Could I get you to moderate the next major political debate?  It might actually be worth watching, especially if you also call them out when they fail to answer the question they're asked in any capacity whatsoever.  How that isn't an instant debate loss on a given topic is beyond me.

    Opinions without facts are nonfactual. Nonfactual arguments are pointless to a debate. I fail to see how this is difficult to understand.
    This is accurate.  However, experience tells me that more people on internet forums tend to argue on opinions without fact rather than bringing in facts.  I don't mind, so long as there is at least a reasoning behind the opinion.

    Now, in writing everything is a plot device.  I can sort of understand that half of his argument, but to that the main issue would be being a "One Trick Pony."  If everyone uses **** in the exact same way without changing the formula or intent in the work you're just being a hack and doing nothing original, just the same old crap.
    Formulaic crap sells though.  It sells consistently, hence how it becomes formulaic.  The root issue is in who's buying; in this case the answer is "far too many people".

    Widespread gender bias in media/society does form a sort of feedback loop though.  It continues in large part because of its ability to form new generations with similar bias.  In order to alter that, you'd have to alter the behaviors of an entire generation such that the next isn't exposed to the realities of what we're seeing currently.  How do you get a large percentage (probably a majority) of the population to suddenly shift behaviors?  Short of necessity-driven disaster, history is not full of successful examples.

    The only feasible solution I can see to gender bias is therefore gradual, with people who see it for what it is doing their part not to contribute to it.  It's pretty obvious that in the USA for example it's not as bad now as 100 years ago.  We can as individuals vote for legislation that provides legal equality (which largely exists) while making our own choices socially to push society as a whole away from it.  The latter part of that will be slow (some will say "too slow"), as social norms don't seem to shift too often, but I don't see a better way IE a practical alternative.  If one exists, I would be happy to hear it.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:54 am

    I just read this thread and learn from it at this point and I'm Ok with that.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:00 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I just read this thread and learn from it at this point and I'm Ok with that.
    Pretty much.

    Nothing more I can add since my points are automatically invalid as I don't read social studies.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Slarg232 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:26 pm

    No offense to either of you, but seriously?

    If I haven't studied Ancient Greek Mythology, am I allowed to say that Hermes should have been the one to lead the Gods, not Zeus, solely because Nathan Fillion is my favorite actor and he plays Hermes in the new Percy Jackson movie?

    If I've never worn lacy underwear, am I allowed to say lacy underwear is uncomfortable, because my girlfriend doesn't like wearing lacy underwear?

    I know those are extreme examples, but still; you have to at least have a good reason for having an opinion, other than "This is my opinion".


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:37 pm

    I'm pretty sure Pendant just meant, "I don't know enough about this topic to discuss it, but I still find this to be an interesting read and wish to read further."
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Emergence on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:42 pm

    bunnywink wrote:Has anybody read this and this?

    I am really disappointed. I was looking forward to seeing Kick-*** 2, but now I'm like.... ehhhh... I mean, I'll still see it because I love Hit Girl. I think she's more interesting than the main protagonist and I love Chloe Moretz (the actress who plays Hit Girl). But I still think Mark Millar's ignorance is appalling.
    As a big comic fan this is an issue that is really endemic to the industry and a lot of it comes from where comics were derived. The old serial novels and pulps were full of male power tropes with damsels in distress and boys who never cried but punched. There are people like Vaughn who are fresh and challenge those conventions and I think that is a movement that will grow. Those gentleman in the articles are from the old school method. They digested the pulpy tropes and have mixed them with the modern day violence culture which is why we wind up with things like **** causually written in and without the gravity of what **** really is. I find Kick *** and most of McFarlane's work sensationalized aggro violence porn. It's trash and a title like Spawn succeeded in spite of itself, as McFarlane's vision for it was more shaped by what fans wanted.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:43 pm

    Opinions and "general thoughts" phrased in appropriate manner should be welcome by all. Tolvo has brought up points that we have thrashed out and come to the other end with a better conclusion, Bunny dropped in with some links I'm sure Emergence will want to talk about.

    You do not need to be an expert to participate in the subject, as long as you are aware that lack of information does indeed mean you are not on equal standing of those who do have the information and as such it may be that your questions or ideas are off base.

    This whole thing started because twinkly lizard asked why macho men with big muscles wasnt the same as lingerie girls with Z cups. I answered "here is why" and he said "well... that was informative and... depressing [...]" - So I personally think that the input from people not aware of the issues is particularly important, as long as those people are willing to play by the rules. Opinion =/= fact, so let's find out how the facts affect our opinions.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:45 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:No offense to either of you, but seriously?

    If I haven't studied Ancient Greek Mythology, am I allowed to say that Hermes should have been the one to lead the Gods, not Zeus, solely because Nathan Fillion is my favorite actor and he plays Hermes in the new Percy Jackson movie?

    If I've never worn lacy underwear, am I allowed to say lacy underwear is uncomfortable, because my girlfriend doesn't like wearing lacy underwear?

    I know those are extreme examples, but still; you have to at least have a good reason for having an opinion, other than "This is my opinion".
    Those 2 things you said are completely different, but fortunately I can use them to explain.

    There fact is all 3 of those things you listed need some kind of experience and knowledge to have an opinion. It is very fair to say about the first two you can't have an opinion without having looked at the material for the gods, or having experienced wearing racy underwear. However, sexism is not the same.

    The issue of sexism is part of societal problems. Society as a whole experiences it, not just the few whose views are made up of countless studies, articles as well as experiences and news stories. We all understand the issues in our own way. The simple fact about our understanding of sexism is social scientific reviews are just a part of it. Experiences are another. You can have a valid opinion of sexism from experiencing it in your office, learning about it from the news and a bit of stuff in school. You don't turn round to a news broadcaster and say "That woman's opinion on sexism isn't correct. I mean she got fired from her job because she got pregnant and they didn't want to pay her when she wasn't working on maturnity leave, but she hasn't read the material to be able to have a valid opinion". That's an extreme example, but it's analogous worth is obvious.

    All the factors determine views on sexism, and just because an opinion isn't formed of studies as does not mean it's not valid. It's extremely elitist and is very excluding to tell people who wanna contribute to the discussion using their opinion that their views don't matter before they get the chance to elaborate. You never know, they might have an interesting idea that you can go on to discuss further if you give them the chance.

    Instead you're throwing them out the door and telling them they aren't good enough to discuss sexism with you. I know that's not what you're saying, but speaking to a few people and seeing what people have written that's what it looks like to them.

    ^That's^ exactly why a few pages back people were throwing their thoughts and opinions into the ring, but now significantly less are. It's no coincidence


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:55 pm

    FexDS wrote:You are entitled to your opinion Animaal, I still think you are incorrect - no I didn't "attack" anyone. Your inferences are not of my creation and I can take no responsibility for your lack of comprehension.

    And if you can't be bothered to bring backing to your outlandish claims and will simply try to dismiss well researched arguments because they don't fit your world view, whilst inserting more unfounded remarks based solely on your personal and limited experience, you are being discourteous to your fellow participants and as such aren't adding to the conversation. As such, you won't be missed in this thread happy
    I wasn't aware we were supposed to talk about people like that around here. Animaal had posted his opinion, backed in opinion, and still got flamed for it. That's why i felt NO NEED to "back" my "opinion. 


    It's also funny how i said i meant no harm and i was leaving and i wake up, get on here and my comments are still being picked apart. 


    Last edited by TooLeet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:56 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:
    All the factors determine views on sexism, and just because an opinion isn't formed of studies as does not mean it's not valid. It's extremely elitist and is very excluding to tell people who wanna contribute to the discussion using their opinion that their views don't matter before they get the chance to elaborate. You never know, they might have an interesting idea that you can go on to discuss further if you give them the chance
    They have the chance. Right when they come to post. They can talk about what they see and why and how. Some have chosen to instead act as if their right to hold an opinion makes said opinion inexorable. And you know this is not the case.

    Going back to the two posts we have had issues with, their "opinions" were backed by nothing but their observations and stated as ultimate fact - that is intellectually dishonest and I do not think it is fair to accuse those who want a standard of conversation of being "elitist" when what we are asking for is the common courtesy of reading the thread and understanding the ongoing conversation rather than posting random inflammatory remarks.

     
    TooLeet wrote:
    FexDS wrote:You are entitled to your opinion Animaal, I still think you are incorrect - no I didn't "attack" anyone. Your inferences are not of my creation and I can take no responsibility for your lack of comprehension.

    And if you can't be bothered to bring backing to your outlandish claims and will simply try to dismiss well researched arguments because they don't fit your world view, whilst inserting more unfounded remarks based solely on your personal and limited experience, you are being discourteous to your fellow participants and as such aren't adding to the conversation. As such, you won't be missed in this thread
    I wasn't aware we were supposed to talk about people like that around here. Animaal had posted his opinion, backed in opinion, and still got flamed for it. That's why i felt NO NEED to "back" my "opinion.
    Talk like what? Like an adult expecting an intellectually honest debate? Animaal posted an opinion and backed it up with nothing but his own narrow views, dismissing my links to professional studies and research that specifically disproved his absurd assertion that there is a genetical configuration for women to stay in "the prison that is the house" as he called it. He did not get "flamed" he got refuted. That's what happens when you post an opinion that holds no water under scrutiny.

    I don't see why you continue to post on this thread when you repeat you don't wish to add to the conversation as you have been asked to explain your views and you have only provided more misguided assertions, after admitting to not reading the thread.


    Last edited by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:00 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Emergence on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:58 pm

    He backed his opinions with anecdotes and then called her a feminazi. You really want to make that your exhibit A?


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Leet on Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:59 pm

    No. I'm not gonna win because you guys have totally awesome forum powers, and are better than us peasants. As i said before, i didn't read this whole thread. After seeing the way people have been talked to i feel  it is pointless. I'm done posting in the burnt out thread.

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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Emergence on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:01 pm

    You initiated yourself into this thread by insulting us and now finish by insulting us. As long as this is your last post in this thread I can accept that.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:02 pm

    TooLeet wrote:
     No. I'm not gonna win because you guys have totally awesome forum powers, and are better than us peasants. As i said before, i didn't read this whole thread. After seeing the way people have been talked to i feel  it is pointless. I'm done posting in the burnt out thread.
    You have said you are done several times now yet keep posting more unfounded accusations against the administration and moderation team.

    You refuse to read the whole thread... yet you want to once more attack us over what you do not know... you aren't really making a good case for yourself and as much as you try to make it our faults, its yours.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:02 pm

    Fex I just felt I had to say it. You may not think you guys are being that way and I know you guys are not trying to be, but a number of people do think the main posters in this thread are creating an elitist vibe, and it's detracting from the amount the forum as a whole can really join in and contribute to the thread.

    I've actually had people say they think this thread harming the forum spirit. I know that is an extreme view but it shows how personally and seriously people have taken it.

    I've said my piece now and I'll shut up about it. But I just want you guys to consider it because while I like the forum being able to have this thread, I'd rather people could contribute to it without feeling as though they've been completely ignored, or disrespected.

    Edit may I reiterate I meant that to all the posters in the thread, I was simply replying to fex as she was the one who addressed me


    Last edited by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:19 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:03 pm

    The issue of sexism is part of societal problems. Society as a whole experiences it, not just the few whose views are made up of countless studies, articles as well as experiences and news stories. We all understand the issues in our own way. The simple fact about our understanding of sexism is social scientific reviews are just a part of it. Experiences are another. You can have a valid opinion of sexism from experiencing it in your office, learning about it from the news and a bit of stuff in school. You don't turn round to a news broadcaster and say "That woman's opinion on sexism isn't correct. I mean she got fired from her job because she got pregnant and they didn't want to pay her when she wasn't working on maturnity leave, but she hasn't read the material to be able to have a valid opinion". That's an extreme example, but it's analogous worth is obvious.
    Opinions can't really be correct or incorrect.  That's what facts are for.  Indeed, your example is good for pointing out precisely how asinine individual experience can truly be.  A woman fired near maternity leave probably had that as part of the reason, but not necessarily.  Maybe she was laid off alongside 10 other people, and felt (inaccurately) that she was better than one of the 10 that were retained.  Maybe she did something she wasn't supposed to, but is using that as an excuse.  Maybe the firm really was sexist and violated the law.  We don't know, and suddenly her anecdotal opinion isn't very worthwhile whatsoever when it comes to setting policies or making changes.  Her individual experience is definitely not useful for making conclusions about societal behaviors as a whole, unless it's one of many used in an intelligently applied statistical analysis.

    In a discussion about a topic and the reasoning behind it, simply stating an opinion and nothing else doesn't make sense.  The reason doesn't have to be grounded in absolute fact or in comprehensive research, but it has to have a logically consistent reason all the same or it isn't really a part of the discussion.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:06 pm

    Funny thing how I have over 10 PMS telling me the thread has been great and that the tone is very good. Don't send me messages saying you like it if you don't guys.

    And btw several of my points and links have been roundly ignored, and I have been repeatedly disrespected. It's a difficult topic - woman up? silly


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:08 pm

    Fex I think it's more there's a divide between people on this thread. Some as you said like it and I totally believe it, but others don't have the same opinion.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Emergence on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:09 pm

    Many opinions have been presented here. The negative tone that the thread has taken has only been in instances where facts have been brought up refuting an opinion. Rather than consider the facts and reform their stance or counter with more facts some individuals have chosen to ignore all facts and continue to push an opinion without any logical counters. This is a forum where debates are inherent. This thread is GOOD for forum spirit because it is teaching people how to refine their views and substantiate them with facts and data.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:12 pm

    If people want to get in on the topic they can as long as they wish to actually discuss the topic.  As I said, a good way to join in on a topic like this is simply via asking questions.  People can also search out articles for discussion about, topics, and bring them in.  

    In regards to the harsh responses sometimes seen in this thread, it's a more serious topic so people will generally respond in a more serious manner.
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:25 pm

    I would say it's shown itself to be somewhat divisive already. That's not necessarily a bad thing. This latest exchange shows two things:
    -opinions matter and should be included as evidence does not occur in isolation. I think Reaper said it's up to the other side to ask what opinions are based on. That's not entirely true but unless an opinion is backed the conversation from necessity must move on. Opinions should be embraced. As starting points.
    -Anecdotal evidence, while not generally enough to draw a global conclusion, is sufficient to add possibilities to a conversation. Possibilities are also great points to start a dialogue. For instance, who has received what PMs is anecdotal but leads to a conclusion.

    Taking these two things into account, not everyone is well versed in research methods let alone have had the time or experience to become acquainted with what research has been conducted. Ultimately, everyone should be welcome to discuss as long as they follow general debate guidelines.

    Be prepared to back up what you say. If not with data at least with the reasons you feel or think a certain way.

    Be prepared to have your thoughts dissected, refuted, and quite possibly changed.

    There has been a touch of a closed atmosphere here. Primarily it's been with a few members who are hostile. I don't need to name anyone but there's a proper way to join and participate that has been ignored.

    My only concern has been disregarding anecdotal evidence or opinions entirely. Evidence is evidence, we just need to rationally dissect it's actual value. Opinions are part of this. Sexism is typically an opinion based phenomenon after all. There is value in its exploration as well.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:29 pm

    I should clarify that I don't know anyone's intent but it is safe I feel to express in written form what ground rules should be in place.

    This should help avoid attacks and closed minds alike.

    Edit: Regarding the perception of the admin club and closed minds, the assumption is that this of all threads is different than others. That the "tyrannical" presence of a certain few is only shining here. 

    First, there is a difference in this thread.  Fex, despite her obvious part with the forum, doesn't post frequently.  She has been quite active and elaborate in responses here so yes, there is a difference in activity level in this thread.  However, a more drastic difference is that Fex (and E) have NOT been acting as admins in this thread.  With the exception of a few necessary warnings, this conversation began and remains a deeply personal one, with actual stakes for all involved. Anyone expecting that this should be as casual as other threads is starting off with a dramatic handicap.  So while you might be able to successfully argue that the admin involvement has differed in this thread, it's only in quantity.  No bans have resulted from disagreeing with the mods (the one person who requested one was told by the admins that there was no need).  No one has been forced out. There has been no show of muscle.  The only barrier that has been added with their involvement has been one of requesting that participants actually explore their preconceived notions.  While some may think that being asked to defend an opinion is the mark of being closed minded, just remember this: 

    If your side is "right" then maybe you should know why. It will be very hard to convince anyone otherwise.  Essentially, don't jump into a pile of facts saying "nuh uh" unless you brought your own pile.


    To end another text wall without making your eyes bleed keep this in mind everyone: 

    You may not like the message but in this thread, the only gap you see is the one you make.  If there is any perceived difference in tone or personality, it is because of the commitment of the admins in acting human.

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    FexDS
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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

    Post by FexDS on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:45 pm

    I have no interest in participating in a discussion where I cannot remain myself intellectually honest and ask for intellectual honesty in return. As it seems popular demand does not fit this, then the (very good) discussion I have been participating in has ended and this thread is therefore locked as I won't be responding.

    I am frankly disappointed at whoever chose to contact Serious_Much with displeasure over my postings instead of contacting me. Two years of admin on the wiki and I'm not worth a PM - I suppose I work better as a behind the scenes wallet.

    Either way, have fun discussing whatever it is whichever way it takes you if you wish to remake the subject.


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    Re: Gender Issue Discussion

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