Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

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    Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:13 am

    So it has been a bit of time since the last thread was closed so I am hoping people have calmed down and we can bring this discussion back.  This will be a thread examining issues such as the portrayal of men/women/etc in forms of media.  Video games will of course be talked about that have such issues and I'd like to ask people to please be mature about the subject matter.  As well if you wish to assert anything remember to actually add to a discussion and present something that can be discussed rather than just using the thread as a platform for your own opinions.  Be considerate of others and the issues they may have experienced relating to the subject matter.  Personally I feel this is an important subject that can be discussed and I always enjoy talking with people about it and educating others about issues while learning myself.  It should be mentioned that before joining a discussion it might be a good idea to read some articles and learn about the subject first as well as learning some of the terminology, asking questions frequently will also be a welcome thing.

    So I figured I would start it off with this whole PAX thing since it's of course relating to a convention that is very important to gaming.  The Penny Arcade Expo.  Here various developers go and show off their games while people try them out, get merchandise, and youtubers report on it all putting up videos of content.  There has been an issue in the past with the creators of PAX specifically Mike K, and his bashing of transgender people along with his disdain for victims of sexual assault.  Originally it started with a comic about what are essentially wolves made out of penises.  In the comic they do not appear and are only mentioned, it is a joke about how players characters in MMO's have no actual care for other humans.  The character has a quest to save five slaves and as he is leaving when a sixth slave begs for freedom.  He explains he only needed five slaves for the quest while the slave mentions being **** every night by the **** wolves.  The player says "Don't make this weird" and leaves, a joke that uses sexual assault as a frame of reference without the joke being about sexual assault just how inconsiderate the player character is.  The comic can be read here.  http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/965474677_7etTF-L.jpg

    There was a backlash to this from victims of sexual assault saying it was offensive and that it alienated them.  Personally I have no issue with the actual comic panel and I even found it humorous as an MMO players I easily got the joke.  But I can see why people got offended and the Penny Arcade owners made a few statements apologizing while saying they weren't going to stop making offensive content and that it was just a joke to not be taken seriously.  However as time went on they handled it in much worse ways creating comics patronizing people and tweeting about people that were offended as if they were morally in the wrong to be offended.  Here is a comic they made in response to the controversy.  http://brokentoys.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/967761811_miT38-L.jpg  Eventually they went on to make merchandise out of it and market themselves as the voice of freedom fighting censorship against those that oppose them.  Keep in mind the people that opposed them were victims of sexual assault that were being triggered and reminded of horrible acts against them, acts that Mike K in particular made light of through tweets.  Here is the shirt they sold.  http://tinyurl.com/lwrzbml  They sold these at PAX and people would parade them around at PAX while Mike would tell people to wear them often and even wear the shirt himself to PAX.  Keeping in mind it is a **** joke which he wants to now make light of and have it be an inside joke among his fans.  In fact one year at PAX for a panel he projected an image he was drawing of a **** Wolf, a Wolf with phallic legs while making jokes about it and wearing the shirt.  I'm not going to link an image to that since it's quite crass and I'd rather not.  You can look it up if you want.  Instead here is Wil Wheaton tweeting against the whole controversy.  http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg2k65ve3q1qfjiio.png  Due to further offense they stopped selling the shirts and took down mention of the merchandise on their site, a step in the right direction.  However at this year's PAX Mike K just announced that he felt the biggest mistake he had made in regards to Penny Arcade was giving into demand and stopping the selling of the shirts, to which his fellow higher ups of Penny Arcade agreed and supported what he said.  He tweeted about wearing his shirt this year and suggesting others do the same and it seems like he might start selling the shirts again.  Currently people are calling for a Boycott of PAX and some media sites are reporting on it though those associated with PAX do not seem to be doing so.  

    Someone has written an article about this that might explain it all a bit better than me.  http://tinyurl.com/m5y4lnc 

    Now how is this relating to genders?  It should be obvious, in regards to sexual assault which happens quite frequently to women in comparison to males(Though it does happen to both genders), this is causing many to feel alienated at said convention when it should be friendly towards everyone.  How would you feel if you wished to take your girlfriend/boyfriend/sibbling/parent/child to PAX only to have them feeling uncomfortable and unwelcome with people walking around with these shirts and joking about people being offended or triggered by them?  It's frankly disgusting behavior from PAX, and I can agree with Boycotting them though I personally couldn't afford to go anyway.  I do recommend to people to simply not go, paying for tickets is using your wallet to tell them you are okay with their behavior.  

    Also I should remind people that before posting in here to keep in mind the rules of the forum and to follow them.

    Now then, how do you people feel about the PAX situation?  Does anyone have any questions about it, any stories of similar situations that are going on?  Do any of you feel like boycotting PAX would do anything or have any ideas about how to get those that own Penny Arcade to start considering the effects their actions and words have upon others?

    EDIT:  It should also be mentioned that fans of Penny Arcade have made their own group, Team ****, a group which harasses anti-sexual assault groups and victims of sexual assaults.  http://tinyurl.com/kgu6ft4


    Last edited by Tolvo on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:46 am

    Does anyone actually get the D-I-C-K-W-O-L-F joke?

    That aside, I've been playing a game called Spelunky a lot recently and one of the ways (one of the few ways) you can get your life back/boost your life is by rescuing prototypical damsels. Now, in Anita Sarkeesian's 3rd Tropes vs Women (linked here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM ) she takes issue with Spelunky's damsels (you can cut right to this part at around the 5:50 mark) because of some very cartoony boobs and because the damsel character is interchangeable with a pug damsel. She recognizes that both are also interchangeable with a male Chippendale's damsel but that apparently doesn't count (I guess).

    So, my question is, and I'm not asking for anyone to flame Sarkeesian, I have no issues with her and I don't people writing "Well, Sarkeesian is a money-grubbing feminazi  who doesn't actually care about video games but talks about them because she saw an opportunity." No, I want someone to tell me why the male damsel doesn't make it equal or, if that isn't the issue, why the dog damsel is a problem? I've known many people who organize charity walks for rescue animals, sick animals, etc... To many devoted pet owners maybe rescuing the dog is appealing, I don't see it as an issue but perhaps you do - let me know.

    Also, I'd like to know what is the game supposed to do when their entire HP/Life mechanic is centered around a damsel rescue, which fits the sort of Indian Jones spoof the game is going for, to avoid upsetting people? Make players have to rescue teddy bears?

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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:52 am


    Another article I found about a **** victim that was 14 at the time of her ****, killing herself at age 16.  Her rapist being her teacher who is 40+ was given jail time for his actions, 31 days.  Just, 31 days.  Even though those close to her said that the **** is what haunted her and drove her to suicide, the judge ruled that "The girl was just as much in control of her situation as her teacher."  That while she was young, mentally she was old enough.  And that it's not as bad because it wasn't a **** in which she was beat up or hurt, just a normal ****.

    It's just, pretty baffling this sort of thing happens in the world.  I'm just trying to search through my mind to even grasp how a person can logically come to the sorts of conclusions that the judge did.


    In regards to Spelunky I don't think it is a super issue, it is more so a very minor tweak I feel that needs to be made.  The male character is used for comedy, the female for sex appeal.  If the female being rescued just looked like a normal woman and so did the man it wouldn't really be an issue.  But rescuing a man in game is seen as amusing while rescuing a female is seen as a sexual thing.  In their next game they could easily fix that and if I remember correctly on twitter the creator has agreed with Anita in that regard and plans to do better in their next game.

    In regards to the dog I see no issue, it's just a dog you want to save because it is cute.  That's it, women aren't equal to dogs because there is a male character so it would be saying men are equal to dogs as well.  Frankly if I saw a human woman in trouble that was sexy, a man in need of help, or my dog I'd probably be more inclined to rescue my own dog first.  That's probably because I'm a horrible human being though.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by densetsushun on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:38 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Does anyone actually get the D-I-C-K-W-O-L-F joke?

    That aside, I've been playing a game called Spelunky a lot recently and one of the ways (one of the few ways) you can get your life back/boost your life is by rescuing prototypical damsels. Now, in Anita Sarkeesian's 3rd Tropes vs Women (linked here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM ) she takes issue with Spelunky's damsels (you can cut right to this part at around the 5:50 mark) because of some very cartoony boobs and because the damsel character is interchangeable with a pug damsel. She recognizes that both are also interchangeable with a male Chippendale's damsel but that apparently doesn't count (I guess).

    So, my question is, and I'm not asking for anyone to flame Sarkeesian, I have no issues with her and I don't people writing "Well, Sarkeesian is a money-grubbing feminazi  who doesn't actually care about video games but talks about them because she saw an opportunity." No, I want someone to tell me why the male damsel doesn't make it equal or, if that isn't the issue, why the dog damsel is a problem? I've known many people who organize charity walks for rescue animals, sick animals, etc... To many devoted pet owners maybe rescuing the dog is appealing, I don't see it as an issue but perhaps you do - let me know.

    Also, I'd like to know what is the game supposed to do when their entire HP/Life mechanic is centered around a damsel rescue, which fits the sort of Indian Jones spoof the game is going for, to avoid upsetting people? Make players have to rescue teddy bears?
    I don't think the issue is so much that you rescue damsels, it's the fact that the characters are so easily interchangeable, they're almost literally useless. Most of the Tropes vs Women examples centre around not just women who are depicted as being lesser and needing constant saving, but also around the fact that the characters aren't really fleshed out to the point that they're interchangeable with, in the example of Spelunky, a pug or a male Chippendale.

    Edit: As an addendum to the point above, if the characters are so shallow they can be easily replaced, why is there a need for a Damsel in Distress in the first place, other than lazy writing conventions?


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:15 am

    I'm glad this has come back. I personally will not be partaking as I wanna maintain a neutral position so I can mod it properly. Not to say obviously other mods admins can't take part but I wish to be as neutral as possible when casting the watchful eye.

    If there is any trouble here (though I hope maturity will be plentiful in a thread as poignant as this), please pm me or report the offending posts. I will say that if there are any trolling posts or people disturbing the thread in a antagonistic way, do not reply to them, just report them and I will delete them. This approach will help keep the positive vibe of the thread and avoid derailing.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:33 am

    That was sort of my plan this time Serious, and why I mentioned the rules.  I'll politely PM them once and if they persist then I'll report it and let the mods sort it out.  I'll give people the benefit of the doubt once but after that, the last thread showed that it just isn't worth it to try and dissolve the situation.

    EDIT:  Also for some interesting reads, some articles about Cosplayers at conventions and how they can be treated by the media sometimes and the issues with the way in which they are treated.

    http://meagan-marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-you-do-if-you-werent-afraid

    http://www.themarysue.com/pax-tomb-raider-cosplay/

    http://www.themarysue.com/black-cat-cosplay-harassment/
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:10 pm

    densetsushun wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Does anyone actually get the D-I-C-K-W-O-L-F joke?

    That aside, I've been playing a game called Spelunky a lot recently and one of the ways (one of the few ways) you can get your life back/boost your life is by rescuing prototypical damsels. Now, in Anita Sarkeesian's 3rd Tropes vs Women (linked here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM ) she takes issue with Spelunky's damsels (you can cut right to this part at around the 5:50 mark) because of some very cartoony boobs and because the damsel character is interchangeable with a pug damsel. She recognizes that both are also interchangeable with a male Chippendale's damsel but that apparently doesn't count (I guess).

    So, my question is, and I'm not asking for anyone to flame Sarkeesian, I have no issues with her and I don't people writing "Well, Sarkeesian is a money-grubbing feminazi  who doesn't actually care about video games but talks about them because she saw an opportunity." No, I want someone to tell me why the male damsel doesn't make it equal or, if that isn't the issue, why the dog damsel is a problem? I've known many people who organize charity walks for rescue animals, sick animals, etc... To many devoted pet owners maybe rescuing the dog is appealing, I don't see it as an issue but perhaps you do - let me know.

    Also, I'd like to know what is the game supposed to do when their entire HP/Life mechanic is centered around a damsel rescue, which fits the sort of Indian Jones spoof the game is going for, to avoid upsetting people? Make players have to rescue teddy bears?
    I don't think the issue is so much that you rescue damsels, it's the fact that the characters are so easily interchangeable, they're almost literally useless. Most of the Tropes vs Women examples centre around not just women who are depicted as being lesser and needing constant saving, but also around the fact that the characters aren't really fleshed out to the point that they're interchangeable with, in the example of Spelunky, a pug or a male Chippendale.

    Edit: As an addendum to the point above, if the characters are so shallow they can be easily replaced, why is there a need for a Damsel in Distress in the first place, other than lazy writing conventions?
    The game has almost no writing which to speak of, the main character is interchangeable by the titular mascot spelunker and a host of other ridiculous "characters" it makes no difference.

    EDIT: Talking about people turning up their noses at female cosplayers watch this idiot make an utter fool of himself. doh 

    http://richwatch.net/trying-too-hard/

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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by steveswede on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:31 pm

    I don't understand why we have to bring this thread back to life. Nothing good is ever going to come from these type of threads because we ALL have our own bias on the matter. If people really want to put effort into making a difference then send a letter to the developers and publishers instead of ranting in some corner of an internet forum.

    I want to make a request for these type of threads to be banned, not because I want to stop free speech but for us all to remain on good terms. Too many gaming sites have been taken over by the sexism in everything debate and it's become a cancer on our gaming culture. I'm here for the Souls series, not to read threads on sexism daily. If I want to read about sexism rants, I'll go to NeoGAF or Shoryuken sites.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:36 pm

    This is a thread tucked away in off topic that doesn't have to be read by anyone that doesn't want to read about the subject.  I feel that this discussion can help people be more understanding of the issues in regards to gender in video games and the world.  It is interesting to examine these things and discuss them while reading articles and first hand accounts of people as well as pieces about how people can be effected by the actions or words of others.  If you do not wish to read about this subject don't read this thread.  If you don't wish to talk about this subject don't post in this thread.  I'll leave it at that.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by dancash1808 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:13 pm

    steveswede wrote:I don't understand why we have to bring this thread back to life.  Nothing good is ever going to come from these type of threads because we ALL have our own bias on the matter.  If people really want to put effort into making a difference then send a letter to the developers and publishers instead of ranting in some corner of an internet forum.

    I want to make a request for these type of threads to be banned, not because I want to stop free speech but for us all to remain on good terms.  Too many gaming sites have been taken over by the sexism in everything debate and it's become a cancer on our gaming culture.  I'm here for the Souls series, not to read threads on sexism daily.  If I want to read about sexism rants, I'll go to NeoGAF or Shoryuken sites.
    Okay not to derail this thread, if you have a problem with anything I say here please PM me, or set up another thread or whatever. I dont mind.
    "Nothing good is going to come from these types of threads" really? you feel the exchange of views and discourse on them is valueless? isnt a large part of our culture entrenched in the idea that it has a huge value? Just because people have bias's does not make their views wrong. and frankly discussions such as these offer an insight into other peoples views you may not otherwise have.

    "ranting on some corner of an internet forum" No see, just no. the purpose here is to have a discussion about what is, lets be fair a pretty important topic. with people we respect and value the opinions of, ranting is not the goal. or at least thats how I see it. feel free to tell me if I'm utterly off base here.

    You want these threads to be banned...? come on if we cant discuss things maturely and recognise that people may have views different than ours and still remain on good terms by and large what hope is there for us as a community full stop?

    as for it becoming a "cancer" on the gaming community. I have to resist quite hard the urge to break into facetious sarcasm along the lines of "oh the indignity! people are interrupting our discussion of a pastime that requires us to have disposable income and free time with their complaints about being marginalisedand discriminated against"  

    Finally I want to point out. this is ONE THREAD. (well the intent is for there to be one active thread as I understand) I have seen far more useless threads around that I did not come here to read about but if people want to discuss it that is their right, I just wont contribute. also If even thatthat is not sufficent. this is off topic. the intent of this section of the site is for NON dark souls discussion.


    Now I may not be the best person to make this statement. and I may not have made it in the best way but I came across this and felt it needed to be said.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:30 pm

    I think one of the best things that can/may come out of this thread is a valuable little thing called perspective.

    Granted, this thread can go a different direction. So, as I've stated previously, if you get offended, don't reply in kind. Ask for clarification (maybe there was a misunderstanding), or say what offended you without being confrontational.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:03 am

    I'm going to say this within the context that I read the comic and found it hilarious, but find it abhorrent as to how they have handled the matter. The comic was about how you leave people in need when it's no longer important to you, as it always is in MMOs.

    Going to go off in a tangent; the people's problems is they are offended, and act as though being offended gives them a right to tell other people how to act. This is false and will lead to nothing.

    If they are offended? As someone else said, Boycott PAX. Telling someone, anyone, to stop being offensive is like telling me to  stop drinking mountain dew; I don't care how strongly you feel about it, I'm still going to drink mountain dew.

    If enough people were offended, they will quickly wonder why it's nothing but a bunch of neckbeards saying "The Cake is a Lie!" or "Arrow to the Knee!" thinking it's the height of humor. If not enough people were offended, they still lose those people, but it's a vocal minority.

    No offense, but whining about the **** wolves isn't going to solve anything, especially not with self proclaimed "internet hot shots" as Penny Arcade. Having said all that, I know now that there is one comic I will cease my visitations.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:19 am

    Very much so agreed there Slarg.

    Also I thought I might touch a bit on the Anita Sarkeesian situation, she has been doing a series examining gender roles in video games.  She had a kickstarter put up to fund her project and raised something in the area of 160,000 dollars.  She of course has had a massive backlash against her from people criticizing her and how she goes about her videos.  Personally I can get some of the complaints, I do not find her editing or wording to be all that great.  That's pretty much the ending of my genuine complaints which revolve more so around the use of the English Language and the idea of random people on youtube that create content for free having better editing skills.  I think it is fine to criticize her since while I agree with her message and feel that what she is doing is needed, nothing is above criticism.  An issue is how people respond to her videos is frequently in a very bias manner designed to slander her and only present the negatives of her work.  She isn't the best person possible for the job but off the top of my head I can't think of a person to fill her role so she's better to have than having no one examining these issues.  A big thing I've noticed is a lot of people that are against he simply speak and write in a way that shows their obvious bias.  I can't tell you how many times i hear "Anita the problem with women like you is."  "Women."  Rarely do they refer to her as a critic or person but often I notice people saying specifically that she is a woman and making it something of note when criticizing her which shows that clearly her being a female is a part of the issue for the person rather than her having a different view.  This is what I take issue with in regards to a lot of her critics.

    I should also mention in regards to some of the people who dislike her it likely isn't about them defending sexist ideals.  Sometimes she points out tropes and gender roles in very popular games and personally I find this to be a more likely cause for some of the backlash she receives.  People feel she is attacking something they have a high view of and as such they attack her in turn to defend what they love.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:23 am

    Honestly, the main problem I have with Sarkessian is that she's making her points across fifty bajillion videos, and so you can't comment on one until you see her entire argument.

    It's like going to a 50 minute speech and hearing it in 5 minute sections after a thirty minute break every time....


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:01 am

    Just try not to forget the positive work she is doing, frankly I think when she gets past the simpler obvious tropes like Damsels in Distress we will be seeing a lot more in depth and interesting topics brought up that will allow for much more interesting and strong conversations in regards to her videos.  I think she just wanted to get the easy work out of the way so she could then get into the much more difficult to examine and often less examined subjects in gaming.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:15 am

    I don't particularly agree with her [Anita's] views on Bayonetta. A game that many see as very feminist. I mean imagine if I told you that Bayonetta was made by an entirely female team then many people would see it as a champion of feminism. However, when you tell them it was made by men they will complain about it objectifying women. If true equality is to exist then we can't have these sorts of double standards, in any direction.

    Anyways, I feel like the OP is not the best starter for gender issues just because I see it more as a hypersensitivity vs sensitivity issue. How about a debate about the portrayal of women as objects?

    I used to think this was a black and white issue, but I've come to realize it, along with most things in life, is very gray.

    On one hand, no one should be objectified ever. People are people and should be treated as such. "Race," sexual orientation, gender, religion, all of these things should never be used to label or objectify a person.

    On the other hand, women can definitely be used in art as symbols of beauty, love, and most importantly reproduction. Yes, I said that but here me out before you crucify me. Women are the basis for human reproduction. It is true that an all female society could exist and prosper. Men are natures way of completing the cycle of genetic variation and inheritable traits, but humans have now overcome it. If I see a woman in a painting, movie, or any medium, being used for her sexual traits I see it more as a sign of respect. I'm not talking about pornography here I'm talking about actual art. Take the birth of Venus for example:
    There is so much sexual symbolism in this painting, and yet it's not regarded as misogynist at all. Rather, it's viewed as celebratory.
    I guess what I'm trying to get to is that we must not brand everything "offensive" as being bad. Satire definitely stings but is purpose is to ridicule not encourage. Works celebrating women, even if made by a man, must not be cast aside merely because there may be some objectifying interpretation. Well I guess I got around to the OP after all.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by bunnywink on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:27 pm

    This guy has problems.

    It's one thing to have some sense of self-worth and to know what you want in a partner, but when you're judging others (women) on their worth based on arbitrary PUA terms like "N count"... Ugh... I would not touch with a 10 ft pole.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:48 pm

    Personally I'd say there is validity to saying Bayonetta is empowering to women while also saying there is sexual objectification in Bayonetta.  Both are in the game the sexualization in a lot of the animations and cutscnes as well as the marketing, the game was marketed often using the nudity of Bayonetta as a concept with only hair wrapped around her body.  The actual gameplay though can be seen as empowering because she is indeed a woman that kicks a lot of asses and the only help she could need is from another female character who is like a partner.  I'd say there is validity to both claims regarding the game.

    Unfortunately in regards to the Venus I'm just not as well versed in visual art as I should be and I can't really talk about how it is used as a media form.

    Bunny that is a pretty deplorable post, the one you linked.  No one should ever feel like they are more worthy than another person let alone a partner.  That is a very disturbed individual and reading the comments below it does seem like he feels that women are on a pedastel he has to knock them off of because he feels women have it too easy.  It's a very disgusting idea to think that one must degrade another group for viewed social advantages of said other group.  It is seen done by extremists of both genders.  "Men have had it too good too long, we need to prove women are superior!"  "Women can have sex easily and get treated like princesses.  We better knock them down a peg and show them that they're really worthless!"  I do wish more people would understand that there doesn't need to be a difference between the genders socially, that you shouldn't have to treat other people differently because of how they were born except in extreme cases like mental retardation or physical disabilities.  I really wish people would stop seeing each others as enemies, it's like a war in which both sides don't trust each other even though both have the same end goal.  They just can't shake hands and agree to reach that goal together because they don't trust the other side and view them as an opponent that must be overcome.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by hey its andres on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:55 pm

    I can't take that seriously and I'm willing to bet it's all satire. lol! 

    Either way, it highlights the fact that "our" patriarchal society turned women into objects of sex, and now women can use that objectification to their own advantage.


    Okay nevermind I lost the bet. Upon closer examination of the site it's all horrible. All of it. I just read something about how monogamy is a habit that must be "cultivated." Really, we're supposed to feel sorry for you because you give into your urges and "needs?" What the hell. No. What the f--- is that about. Women have urges just as much as men, sometimes more so! However, the moment a women runs off with a man she's a cheating **** (w hore if that gets censored). Whereas, men can be excused from their cheating through society's great reasoning such as "She must not have been fulfilling his needs," and, "Maybe she shouldn't have gotten fat!" Honestly, people are just horrible.

    And yes, maybe his seed is worth a lot, but as biological weapon. A weapon that could plague humanity's already murky gene pool with more stupidity.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Thxodore on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:13 pm

    It's sad that after generations upon generations of people that are trying to promote fair equality and prosperity among all genders and races, all it truly takes is one biased person to inject the stupidity of sexism and racism back into society's view. People just love to cause trouble, to be the center of attention.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:24 pm

    So this was brought up in the chat recently by someone regarding sexism in their country which hurt men mainly in regards to a draft which forces only men into military service while one can sign up if they are female only men are drafted.  They said that people just accepted it so it won't change and I would like to remind something.

    In America there was a time when black people were not allowed to use the bathrooms of white people, eat with them, sit by them, go to the same school.  It was horrible and racist and at the time people just accepted it or thought it was right.  How was that put to an end?  People fought it, they sought change and didn't just accept it.  They fought for what they believed in through protest and educating others until they were given the rights they deserve.  And the opressed were not the only ones fighting for change, those that "benefit" in the most base sense of opportunity as well should seek change to bring forth equality.  Rights Movements are not one time deals nor do people have to be satisfied with laws that promote racism, sexism, etc.  When people say "No I won't accept this, this isn't right" is when you will start to see change.  There is always the possibility of making a difference, people just have to band together and do what they can to educate others while letting them know "This needs changing."
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:32 pm

    It does not help when the Feminist Movement is basically tripping over itself and fighting battles that it should just ignore.

    Take this lady;



    This all started on No Hope for the Human Race, a page on Facebook I go to for a laugh. This lady posted a picture saying "This is what a Feminist looks like!", to which the page got a hold of it and said "Pretty much what I expected".

    A good thing? No. A Nice thing? Nope. A Funny thing? Not really. But this is No Hope, a page that makes fun of EVERYTHING. Note; it didn't single her out, nore did it have any more than one post about her.

    Suddenly the page EXPLODES with her response, which was an angry letter to Cosmo Magazine as to how she was outraged that people would DARE make fun of her. And so the page got an angry message saying they would be boycotted or similar from Cosmo, because they had the gall to insult women.

    The pages response was (In my humble opinion) legendary; "It is not our responsibility to monitor what people post on our wall, and we will not make it so. We do not bow to those who claim to want equality of all people, but only show bombshell drop dead gorgeous women on their front cover. If you want to help the female movement, start having cover art of women like the one who contacted you about us". To my knowledge, there was no reply.


    So let me get this straight, we are allowed to make fun of dead babies, poor black kids in Africa, how everything wants to kill Australians, and even make Satan out to be a good guy..... but don't you dare make fun of a woman......


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:52 pm

    I wouldn't really say the feminist movement as a whole is tripping over itself, they're doing fine in regards to how they handle things often.  It is just that simply some of the bad apples are louder so people notice them the most, like the woman in the above image whom which for the life of me I can't understand the message behind such an image.  In either case try not to focus on only the negative and also focus on the positive.  If I'm going to be frank I've noticed in this thread seemingly trying to basically diminish the purpose of feminism and a seeking of gender equality.  Just try to remember people that extremists do not represent the whole of a group, just as Christians aren't represented by the Klu Klux Klan.
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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by bunnywink on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:53 pm

    Hahah, Andres. I got a good laugh at the blog as well. I can't take most PUAs very seriously though. They always seem to think there is this ultimate code/cheat in life that will get women to behave the way they want them to.
    I do love how he boasts about his lineage by saying that he is from a line of successful males. As if no woman had anything to do with his gestation or genetic makeup. It's kinda bizarre.


    On another note, I really hate that feminism has become so confused with... for lack of a better word - vanity. I don't care if you are above or below the average weight. The above image seems like those body shaming messages going around on FB about "real women" more than it has to do anything with feminism.


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    Re: Gender Issues Discussion Thread 2.0

    Post by Tolvo on Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:04 pm

    The only message I can sort of think she meant is maybe that she is upset that most feminists are still women?  That's me really stretching it to try and garner anything positive out of her image because what, is she saying feminists are fat or overweight?  That's they aren't what is considered standard beauty?  I will be honest, the message behind that image is like an enigma to me.  

    By the way if you want some chuckles and can find humor in how ignorant people are, here is a twitter that basically takes posts from forums where people say indignant and often sexism things towards women and men while often trying to be macho and powerful.  If you can laugh at how silly it is this is the twitter.  https://twitter.com/puahate_txt

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