Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by WaffleGuy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:00 pm

    I don't get the buzz now over this 'issue'. I never had a problem with the Hornet Ring, but a lot of people seem so... stingy about it. Like an angry hive of people. The removal of the Fatal upgrade path is sweet like honey to me. 

    :razz:


    Last edited by WaffleGuy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : because shut up)


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:01 pm

    WaffleGuy wrote:I don't get the buzz now over this 'issue'. I never had a problem with the Hornet Ring, but a lot of people seem so... stingy about it. Like an angry hive of people. The removal of the Fatal upgrade path is sweet like honey. 

    :razz:
    That's the exact reason I made this.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by WaffleGuy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:05 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    WaffleGuy wrote:I don't get the buzz now over this 'issue'. I never had a problem with the Hornet Ring, but a lot of people seem so... stingy about it. Like an angry hive of people. The removal of the Fatal upgrade path is sweet like honey. 

    :razz:
    That's the exact reason I made this.

     I feel the need to complete our connection and make a Beedrill avatar :razz:


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by shadowzninjaz on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:06 pm

    Dibsville wrote:

    If anything, the Hornet Ring should be boosted back up with the current backstab damage.

    Just no dibs no eveything in dks atm is perfectly fine and very well done op:thumbs up: 


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:10 pm

    Imo, when you reach a certain skill level in pvp, you come to adapt to all things backstab.  You may understand, and even implement several other techniques, but eventually it will all tie to the backstab or the counter of.

    Since the ability to win is so dependent on the mechanic, the question arises of, "Are accessory items that enhance this mechanic really necessary?"

    I say no.  But I use the heck out of it in pve. Shrug
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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by StiffNipples on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:26 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Couldn't agree more about the fatal upgrade path.

    Personally though, I think some of the damage output in this game is kinda ridiculous. I wish the only real use for backstabs was to punish people for doing dumb stuff.

    There would be a huge difference in how people played offensively if backstabs only did about 25% damage....maybe 40% for a rapier w / Hornets (opponents total hp).

    However, I just get sad when I'm having a good duel, the person makes a big mistake, and the duel is over because I backstabbed him. I always think damn, "I want more fun".

    But again, this is just preference.

    I think there's a good reason why Hornets isn't allowed at sl 55 events.

    billy_bayonet wrote:i think the best way to balance Backstabs and parries would be have a Bs do 30% of your current HP if you have 1800 hp it will do 540 damage and a parry be 60% so 1080 damage.

    for weapons like rapiers and daggers with high crit make them do 40% and 80%

    the idea being that you can never be killed by a BS or a parry only have your current hp slashed, doesnt make Bs or parries useless but doesnt make them a persons sole attacking method



    I owe you both a +1, although I will say Billy that 80 and 90% is a little high silly
    I really like the idea though, and it would be something that is easy to tweak and balance, however I do wonder how it would work with things like Power Within and RTS.


    Animaaal wrote:I say no. But I use the heck out of it in pve. Shrug

    Also agree, I do the same.



    Also Dibs, what was wrong with the other thread on this? I thought that discussion was still on going and don't really feel that it needed another thread.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:28 pm

    This thread is completely different, I just made it so I can link it to anyone who decides to gripe about Hornet in the future.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by steveswede on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:31 pm

    Dibsville wrote:If you've never played Demon's Souls, there was an upgrade path called the "Fatal" upgrade path. It took away your base damage, but added critical damage. It could be put on any weapon that wasn't special.

    Right this is bull, only a handful of weapons could use the fatal upgrade and they were either daggers, rapiers or spears.  This was also the case with other weapons that only allowed so many different paths on weapons.  If I recall correctly there isn't a single weapon that uses every single main upgrade path.  Dark Souls upgrade system saw to the end of that by making most of the upgrade system universal which is why the likes of fatal and bleed were merged into the weapons themselves, which was smart because as you can imagine a fatal upgrade on a Zweihander would be very devastating.

    As for the hornet ring and it's users, maybe it's about time you complainers level your characters with adequate health and get good at evading backstabs.  Recently I was PvPing in the Burg for the first time in months and while I was a bit rusty, evading BS fishers was still a piece of cake to me.  I'm sick of seeing threads about stuff being over powered in a game that's not meant to be a balanced fighting game.  Attacks hit hard, you can be OHKO'ed, you can customize your own stats that can have an unfair advantage over another opponent.  Deal with these facts or go and play something else.
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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by StiffNipples on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:32 pm

    The other one was essentially "I don't like the Hornet Ring" and this one is essentially "I like the Hornet Ring".

    They're pretty similar.

    Granted the other one started a bit more ranty than this one, but still, aside from Billy's comment, they've ended up pretty much the same.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:33 pm

    Basically, but I'd like to have this just because Hornet Ring is something that comes up all the time.

    You know, as a reference.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by StiffNipples on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:40 pm

    Yup I getcha.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by WaffleGuy on Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:59 pm

    Dibsville wrote:Basically, but I'd like to have this just because Hornet Ring is something that comes up all the time.

    You know, as a reference.

     It's not because you're at your Sweet 16 that you can talk with food in your mouth. Now give me that lollipop. silly


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by SirArchmage on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:54 am

    What is this? No one has yet to make an angry screaming rant about how the hornet ring is overpowered? No shouting matches yet? No one calling the other an idiot? Bah, what's the fun of this thread.


    Also, do not very much like Billy's idea. It means that back stabs can be used to the same degree against any class. Health and defense would not matter. Plus, I have never been a fan of things that do damage based off current health percentage of the enemy or self.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by StiffNipples on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:25 am

    But I want to backstab someone with my fist for 30% hp silly 


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:42 am

    Recently I was PvPing in the Burg for the first time in months and while I was a bit rusty, evading BS fishers was still a piece of cake to me.

    I don't think even evading is necessary.  Unless you're using something ultra slow (that also can't DA...stuff like dragon king axe or some such with very slow vertical attacks) most weapons can stick on them as they strafe if you're unlocked and used to turning your character while attacking unlocked.  Weapons with high poise break, dead angles, or buffed chip damage are excellent candidates for "spam r1 unlocked vs fishing and essentially punish it without effort".

    Lag stabs are a bit different, but it's not like lag + anything strong is particularly pleasant so I'm going to ignore that in a balance discussion.  Lag isn't balanced lol.

    Although counter BS is pretty devastating too :p.  I don't like going for that unless vs ganks though...it seems less reliable for me than simply stripping a couple hundred damage off of people either by breaking through the shield and hitting them or chips/dead angles.  BS vs unlocked in 1v1 is really hard to fish.

    But I want to backstab someone with my fist for 30% hp

    Can dragons do this?  I admittedly know very little about them but I thought they had pretty good fists.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:51 am

    steveswede wrote:.... level your characters with adequate health and get good at evading backstabs...

    No offense steve, but I don't think that really has anything to do with it.

    What I don't understand is why certain groups of people in the souls community always say, "get better" when talking about an item that is imbalanced, or appears to be by a majority of people.

    Dibs made a thread about loving the Hornet's, so in turn, a natural discussion of not liking it so much would inevitably ensue. Or at the very least, a discussion of why or why not its good or bad.

    The whole, "Nothing is op and just because something beat you doesn't make it op, go practice you jackwagon" is getting old.

    In society, we talk amongst ourselves.

    ***edit****

    OH %$#@! New smilies!!!! wave 

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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by StiffNipples on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:14 am

    Imaginary +1 to you Animaaal. Again.


    @MeInTeam

    Dragon Fist have an AR of 400, backstabbing they do pretty good damage too, especially with a Hornet Ring, they have the same Riposte animation as the Fist, with the Hornet Ring the get the neck snap animation as well. It's pretty brutal.



    The worst arguement against something being OP is "you can dodge it".  We know that, but you see, we're talking about what happens when you don't dodge it, not that it's not OP just because you can dodge it. You can dodge anything really, so that arguement is moot.

    (also we're talking about PvP so don't bring Boss attacks into it, you're meant to avoid them silly )


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:23 am

    StiffNipples wrote:....The worst arguement against something being OP is "you can dodge it"....

    Thank you, this is an EXCELLENT point.  This mentality alone limits the possibilities of widening a level playing field in Dark Souls by another third.

    Fat rolling is already out of the question in almost every way shape and form, mid-rolling isn't far behind.

    That's just the "tip" of the iceberg concerning that argument.
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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:16 am

    The worst arguement against something being OP is "you can dodge it".  We know that, but you see, we're talking about what happens when you don't dodge it, not that it's not OP just because you can dodge it. You can dodge anything really, so that arguement is moot.



    While I agree, it's hard to see how the hornet is consistenly dealing more damage than 2-3 hit combos with a stun or stunlock, or buffed magic from any branch except faith (which hurts slightly less).  For example a great fireball + great combustion combo with bellowing ring is easily going to drop over 1k on someone, and likely significantly more...and if the fireball hits reasonably close the combustion follow-up is unavoidable.  Stunlocks can do 1200-2000 damage if buffed and not toggle-escaped.  WoG tick-stab (without hornet ring) will hurt more on most weapons than just a hornet BS.  Dark bead, pursuers, homing soul mass...these things can all easily OHKO or very close.

    In such an environment, nobody's really showing how hornet backstabs are unusual in any capacity.  Hornet backstabs, despite assertions otherwise, *are* build-dependent due to the ring usage and it *is* possible to make the ring worthless in a given fight.  Pretty much the only weapons that don't match this "any mistake can get you killed easily" tendency in Dark Souls are weapons designed for low damage/high speed or weapons designed to poke (basically, things like kats/straight/curved swords and things like spears)...though buffed kats/curved swords can easily rip over 2/3 health from a careless missed attack too.  Anything else can easily drop 1k+ on someone due to a tiny mistake...it's hard to single out BS or hornet ring when a large % of the in-game options can either combo-kill your or redline you.

    Fat rolling is already out of the question in almost every way shape and form, mid-rolling isn't far behind.



    Like I said, you don't need fast roll to "dodge backstabs".  You don't even NEED midroll, though midroll at least is useful to have against spells due to fat roll's recovery frames...but against BS?  Nope, don't need midroll.

    Gankers can obviously tag-team BS if you midroll and don't carry something as backup that stops it (WoG, zwei, sweeping weapons in general)...but one person isn't going to land that unless you give up roll BS on a slow attack or mess up.  People act like players can just lock on and walk around...but that flat out doesn't work, at all, if you fight them unlocked and just attack them (lead them just slightly).  Even with hammers/axes class of weapons I can just stand there unlocked and beat on the guy's shield (Gwyn help him if he isn't blocking), and the pushback + unlocked turning kills any hope of BS.

    TLDR:

    1.  Backstabs, even with hornet, do not provide unusual damage compared to spells, stunlock combos, buff builds, or any other PvP SL options regularly used.  You die quickly in DS.
    2.  Backstabs are not a given, and fishing alone without other tactics can be punished by any roll speed easily with the right weapon choices and/or playing unlocked.

    It's really no different from saying pyro is overpowered, or even something ridiculous like "DKGA is overpowered"...those things can easily drop 1k-1.5k damage on someone in a hurry depending on build.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Shakie666 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:19 am

    My main problem with backstabs is how much more difficult they are to avoid with mid roll instead of fast roll. If you're against a fast-rolling bs fisher whilemid-rolling yourself, there isn't much you can do besides keeping your back to a wall (or having something with sweeping attacks, but this shouldn't be a necessity).

    One thing I miss about the fatal upgrade path is that you could only apply it to small weapons. A +5 fatal greataxe would have been the most OP thing ever, which is why you couldn't have that (though that might not have been a problem with the tiny bs window in DeS). Contrast this to DkS. Just the other day I was doing some co-op pvp (yes I know, i'm crap at pvp), when this guy invaded with a CMW buffed great club + hornets ring and 1-shotted the host for all of his 1800 hp. You couldn't do this in DeS because big weapons couldn't get a critical boost.

    To be fair, big weapons need something to keep them relevant in the pvp scene, but obscenely powerful critical attacks should not be that thing.

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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:07 pm

    I think there's a HUGE difference between a random "fisher" and "backstabberist".  I've been invaded by some pretty decent mid-rollers in my recent "retour" of Lordran, but they haven't exactly interrupted my questing.

    @shakie

    I agree.  Big weapons should get something. Maybe some extra poise, not much, but enough to justify the weight.
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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:41 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    StiffNipples wrote:....The worst arguement against something being OP is "you can dodge it"....

    Thank you, this is an EXCELLENT point.  This mentality alone limits the possibilities of widening a level playing field in Dark Souls by another third.

    Fat rolling is already out of the question in almost every way shape and form, mid-rolling isn't far behind.

    That's just the "tip" of the iceberg concerning that argument.

     If something one-shots someone, but is well telegraphed and easily dodged, than "You can dodge it" is a good argument.

    Fat rolling isn't out of the question, nor is mid rolling, I've been consistantly doing it all day yesterday.

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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:51 pm

    You can dodge anything. Hell, I've been trapped in a corner by gankers and DWGR flipped my way out.

    Just because you can run to the other side of the forest to avoid the ridiculous phantom damage of a buffed Washing Pole, doesn't mean that it isn't ridiculous.

    I toy with Fat-rollers. I don't understand why someone would even do it outside of having fun. They're too slow to engage, so I usually go kill an enemy, act like I'm going to backstab, go kill another enemy, act like I'm going to backstab, kill another enemy and walk through the fog door.

    If I feel like being a jerk because they hit me with Llyod's, I'll just chain stab them.
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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:54 pm


    My main problem with backstabs is how much more difficult they are to avoid with mid roll instead of fast roll. If you're against a fast-rolling bs fisher whilemid-rolling yourself, there isn't much you can do besides keeping your back to a wall

    ?  That's nothing like my experience thus far, and I've been playing for a while.  Lag front-stabs catch me, but lagbeads and such also do that.  Otherwise just go unlocked and follow them around.  Nobody is going to BS that with any consistency unless you open yourself up to roll BS or you mis-aim your unlocked attacks.


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    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:59 pm

    Animaaal wrote:You can dodge anything.  Hell, I've been trapped in a corner by gankers and DWGR flipped my way out.

    Just because you can run to the other side of the forest to avoid the ridiculous phantom damage of a buffed Washing Pole, doesn't mean that it isn't ridiculous.

    I toy with Fat-rollers.  I don't understand why someone would even do it outside of having fun.  They're too slow to engage, so I usually go kill an enemy, act like I'm going to backstab, go kill another enemy, act like I'm going to backstab, kill another enemy and walk through the fog door.

    If I feel like being a jerk because they hit me with Llyod's, I'll just chain stab them.
    Did you know you move faster if you constantly jump? I can keep up with a fast rolling whom is running with my fat rollers jumping relatively easily, and jumping makes dodging (and roll attacks) relatively easy for a fat roller too. It just takes a different way of looking at things.

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