Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Share
    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:27 pm

    TLDR; Fatal weapons were OP, Hornet Ring is a great addition instead of them.

    Anyone who has played Demon's Souls should already know where I'm going with this.

    If you've never played Demon's Souls, there was an upgrade path called the "Fatal" upgrade path. It took away your base damage, but added critical damage. It could be put on any weapon that wasn't special. In other words, you could make your weapons into practical Rapiers, except more base damage than a Rapier.

    So now onto the Hornet Ring; since the Fatal path was removed, we now have the Hornet Ring. At first it was +50% damage on Criticals, but everyone cried that it was OP so it was nerfed to only +30%. Yet it's STILL being called OP.

    Now let's imagine this. The Hornet Ring is taken out and Fatal weapons are added back in. Now everyone can basically get the Hornet Ring bonus on their weapon, but still have two ring slots to choose from. I don't want to see a Rapier doing 1600 damage even though the guy has DWGR and Wolf Ring.

    If anything, the Hornet Ring was a blessing in place of the Fatal weapons. People should look back and see that the Hornet Ring taking up a ring slot was one of the best, (not saying it was the best, but it's pretty high up there), changes from Demon's Souls to Dark Souls.

    I sincerely hope there's another Hornet Ring type ring in DkS2 to make up for any other shenanigans FROM might try to pull on critical damage.




    TheMeInTeam wrote:I so rarely use it due to the expense of a ring slot.  That cost is very real.  Relying on it for criticals is like relying on BDCR for high damage spells: a gambit that you're going to land something and see benefit from the ring.

    Look at it from the perspective of "added damage".  Hornet ring might add a couple hundred damage.  What might havel's add or reduce, if it allows fast roll instead of medium roll?  Cloranthy?  BDCR?  FAP (literally adds extra HP outright among other things and is probably the strongest individual PvP ring for a lot of builds)?

    Most of the rings that people actually use a decent amount have properties that can compete with, and possibly surpass, the output from hornet ring.  Some of them might have less expected benefit added, but apply it more consistently (cloranthy always works every time you do any action other than simple movement, havel's literally always works).  Others require that you complete a set of requirements in order to see any benefit at all; in order for these to be balanced against guaranteed function rings, they must be stronger in the event that they *can* meet those requirements.

    In more than a few situations, the hornet ring can be a bad choice, literally eating a ring slot w/o doing anything at all.  Backstabs and parries are *not* guaranteed...I don't see how this ring is even rationally defensible as "overpowered", though as usual we lack any credible evidence to say conclusively either way.


    Last edited by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:04 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Adding quotes)


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    Sentiel
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3181
    Reputation : 231
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Age : 29
    Location : Mushroom Kingdom

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:30 pm

    I don't care how they do it, but I want to be able to pin my opponent to the ground afer a succesful parry.

    Feels so satisfying.
    Even if they survive it...

    avatar
    ResIsBestStat
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1863
    Reputation : 6
    Join date : 2013-03-25
    Age : 19
    Location : I'm homeless

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:34 pm

    Dibsville wrote:TLDR; Fatal weapons were OP, Hornet Ring is a great addition instead of them.

    Anyone who has played Demon's Souls should already know where I'm going with this.

    If you've never played Demon's Souls, there was an upgrade path called the "Fatal" upgrade path. It took away your base damage, but added critical damage. It could be put on any weapon that wasn't special. In other words, you could make your weapons into practical Rapiers, except more base damage than a Rapier.

    So now onto the Hornet Ring; since the Fatal path was removed, we now have the Hornet Ring. At first it was +50% damage on Criticals, but everyone cried that it was OP so it was nerfed to only +30%. Yet it's STILL being called OP.

    Now let's imagine this. The Hornet Ring is taken out and Fatal weapons are added back in. Now everyone can basically get the Hornet Ring bonus on their weapon, but still have two ring slots to choose from. I don't want to see a Rapier doing 1600 damage even though the guy has DWGR and Wolf Ring.

    If anything, the Hornet Ring was a blessing in place of the Fatal weapons. People should look back and see that the Hornet Ring taking up a ring slot was one of the best, (not saying it was the best, but it's pretty high up there), changes from Demon's Souls to Dark Souls.

    I sincerely hope there's another Hornet Ring type ring in DkS2 to make up for any other shenanigans FROM might try to pull on critical damage.
    OUR SAINT HAS ARRIVED!
    Thank you Dibs for finally putting some sense in all these guys who call Hornet Ring OP! thumbs up 
    avatar
    TheMeInTeam
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1010
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2012-11-05
    Age : 33
    Location : 1337 Accuracy Way

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:47 pm

    I so rarely use it due to the expense of a ring slot.  That cost is very real.  Relying on it for criticals is like relying on BDCR for high damage spells: a gambit that you're going to land something and see benefit from the ring.

    Look at it from the perspective of "added damage".  Hornet ring might add a couple hundred damage.  What might havel's add or reduce, if it allows fast roll instead of medium roll?  Cloranthy?  BDCR?  FAP (literally adds extra HP outright among other things and is probably the strongest individual PvP ring for a lot of builds)?

    Most of the rings that people actually use a decent amount have properties that can compete with, and possibly surpass, the output from hornet ring.  Some of them might have less expected benefit added, but apply it more consistently (cloranthy always works every time you do any action other than simple movement, havel's literally always works).  Others require that you complete a set of requirements in order to see any benefit at all; in order for these to be balanced against guaranteed function rings, they must be stronger in the event that they *can* meet those requirements.

    In more than a few situations, the hornet ring can be a bad choice, literally eating a ring slot w/o doing anything at all.  Backstabs and parries are *not* guaranteed...I don't see how this ring is even rationally defensible as "overpowered", though as usual we lack any credible evidence to say conclusively either way.


    _________________
    There is no "I" in team.  There is no "we" either.  There is a me.
    Dolan would like you to turn around and pick up that item on the ground.
    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:54 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:I so rarely use it due to the expense of a ring slot.  That cost is very real.  Relying on it for criticals is like relying on BDCR for high damage spells: a gambit that you're going to land something and see benefit from the ring.

    Look at it from the perspective of "added damage".  Hornet ring might add a couple hundred damage.  What might havel's add or reduce, if it allows fast roll instead of medium roll?  Cloranthy?  BDCR?  FAP (literally adds extra HP outright among other things and is probably the strongest individual PvP ring for a lot of builds)?

    Most of the rings that people actually use a decent amount have properties that can compete with, and possibly surpass, the output from hornet ring.  Some of them might have less expected benefit added, but apply it more consistently (cloranthy always works every time you do any action other than simple movement, havel's literally always works).  Others require that you complete a set of requirements in order to see any benefit at all; in order for these to be balanced against guaranteed function rings, they must be stronger in the event that they *can* meet those requirements.

    In more than a few situations, the hornet ring can be a bad choice, literally eating a ring slot w/o doing anything at all.  Backstabs and parries are *not* guaranteed...I don't see how this ring is even rationally defensible as "overpowered", though as usual we lack any credible evidence to say conclusively either way.

    Permission to add that to the OP because it's so awesome?


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    skarekrow13
    Chat Moderator

    Posts : 10236
    Reputation : 410
    Join date : 2012-01-27
    Location : Ralph Wilson Stadium

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 pm

    My position is and always will remain:

    There is not perfect balanced in the game, but there is also nothing that is of game breaking imbalance as to be defined as "overpowered."


    Except the Calamity Ring. I will still argue it is the most unbalanced, and therefore gamebreaking item in the game and should draw ire before any other piece of equipment in any conversation dedicated to how fair or unfair items are in game.

    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:58 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:My position is and always will remain:

    There is not perfect balanced in the game, but there is also nothing that is of game breaking imbalance as to be defined as "overpowered."  


    Except the Calamity Ring.  I will still argue it is the most unbalanced, and therefore gamebreaking item in the game and should draw ire before any other piece of equipment in any conversation dedicated to how fair or unfair items are in game.  
    Calamity can be used to add balance, though.


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    Rynn
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 4689
    Reputation : 257
    Join date : 2012-01-26

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Rynn on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:03 pm

    Backstabs were overpowered, but now they are overtaxed in comparison. I do not believe that 1620 damage backstabs with a manserpant greatsword: on full giants armor, is reasonable. But nor do I feel that the new value of about 920 under the same conditions is any better.

    Simply reducing hornets from 50% to 30% was enough, but they at the same time Reduced Elemental Weapon damage, and chopped backstab damage on most weapons down by 40% average.

    Too much change makes backstabs too weak.
    avatar
    TheMeInTeam
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1010
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2012-11-05
    Age : 33
    Location : 1337 Accuracy Way

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:03 pm




    Permission to add that to the OP because it's so awesome?

    If you wish I don't mind happy.


    _________________
    There is no "I" in team.  There is no "we" either.  There is a me.
    Dolan would like you to turn around and pick up that item on the ground.
    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:05 pm

    Rynn wrote:Backstabs were overpowered, but now they are overtaxed in comparison. I do not believe that 1620 damage backstabs with a manserpant greatsword: on full giants armor, is reasonable. But nor do I feel that the new value of about 920 under the same conditions is any better.

    Simply reducing hornets from 50% to 30% was enough, but they at the same time Reduced Elemental Weapon damage, and chopped backstab damage on most weapons down by 40% average.

    Too much change makes backstabs too weak.
    If anything, the Hornet Ring should be boosted back up with the current backstab damage.


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    Aigaios
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 216
    Reputation : 10
    Join date : 2013-07-07
    Location : Drinking tea with Snuggly

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Aigaios on Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:56 pm

    I never really found the hornet ring too much of a bother. Do i like when someone with a Giant Club BS me for almost all my HP? No, but if they do then its because i did something wrong or took them too lightly. That said, the only thing that high damage hornet users do is run around with their shield up using the BS as their only form of attack and I would rather die then spend more then 5 minutes with those guys.


    _________________
    PSN: Aigaionn
    "Niente è vero, tutto è concesso."

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:05 pm

    Couldn't agree more about the fatal upgrade path.

    Personally though, I think some of the damage output in this game is kinda ridiculous.  I wish the only real use for backstabs was to punish people for doing dumb stuff.

    There would be a huge difference in how people played offensively if backstabs only did about 25% damage....maybe 40% for a rapier w / Hornets (opponents total hp).

    However, I just get sad when I'm having a good duel, the person makes a big mistake, and the duel is over because I backstabbed him.  I always think damn, "I want more fun".

    But again, this is just preference.  

    I think there's a good reason why Hornets isn't allowed at sl 55 events.
    avatar
    Soris Ice Goldwing
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 7540
    Reputation : 74
    Join date : 2012-12-07
    Age : 22
    Location : Here, there, nowhere

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:14 pm

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:It is fun to use and makes it harder to fight in PvP. A challenge were that one mistake kills you. Always on guard with more focus as you fight the wielder. The great feeling that the tank who stunlock lock fell to a riposte by the light weight build, easier to live in PvE were a parry can save or kill you.

    My personal reasoning. I don't mind it at all and prefer the fact it exist. I got a low sl I want to try with it.


    _________________
    avatar
    SirArchmage
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1146
    Reputation : 85
    Join date : 2013-04-24
    Age : 21
    Location : 537 Paper Street Soap Company

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by SirArchmage on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:25 pm

    In every game I have ever played, an effective combination is deemed overpowered. While I do believe back stabs to be not very well implemented in the game, I in no way believe hornet ring to be overpowered.  If anything, some of the builds I make are over powered. Some have magic strong enough to one shot you, while also being fast, high health, and 53 poise while still sacrificing for aesthetics, with points left over. Some have fast roll, 77 poise, nearly 2000 health and can deal out over 1000 DPS. I consider some of these builds to be much more "overpowered" then hornet ring, as I can do the same amount of damage yet adapt to more scenarios in battle.

    Although mainly just agree with TheMeInTeam


    _________________
    :sign: I don't kill you in the most effective of ways. I kill you in the funniest. :sign:
    "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
    -Ernest Hemmingway

    The Heretic was here twisted Mwa haha
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:27 pm

    As I've said before, the soul series (and as I understand it, fromsoft games in general) have a high damage to hp ratio, and one bad move is often the end of a fight. 6 hits from a kat will kill almost everybody (for the record, this means a single hit is around 17% of someones total health, a mere 20% from total health from a crit would be pathetic), and those hits can be accomplished on 1 stamina bar (I think, maybe 1 strike short) a zweih hits for 450 and will kill most anybody within those 4 hits, being 1 max stamina bar.

    The entire game is built like that, a silver knight routinely deals damage in excess of a third of your hp if you're leveled appropriately.

    In good faith, I'd recommend you find a different game if you are seriously upset by the short fights.

    To be fair, know what happens when you screw up in doa or tekken? you get juggled for al least half your life, and these are full blown, competitively balanced fighters.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:30 pm

    Well heck man, I wasn't trying to say it ruins the game.

    And its too late, I've checked, my physician says theres no kinda medication for my itch. Shrug 
    avatar
    Forum Pirate
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 6625
    Reputation : 232
    Join date : 2012-01-30
    Age : 26
    Location : International waters

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:39 pm

    I wasn't saying you were, just making a generalized suggestion.


    _________________
    Your rules are yours
    My honor is mine.
    Perspective is everything.
    We are Exiles, and our home is Painted with the blood of trespassers.

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:50 pm

    I know dude. I just didn't add the "it doesn't break the game for me" part. I agree, if the high damage output really turns you off, this game isn't for you...

    ...but a guy can dream cant he?yawn <---this is the new sleep emote I guess.
    avatar
    billy_bayonet
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 5912
    Reputation : 177
    Join date : 2012-02-27
    Age : 28
    Location : ENGLAND!!!

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by billy_bayonet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:27 pm

    i think the best way to balance Backstabs and parries would be have a Bs do 30% of your current HP if you have 1800 hp it will do 540 damage and a parry be 60% so 1080 damage.

    for weapons like rapiers and daggers with high crit make them do 40% and 80%

    the idea being that you can never be killed by a BS or a parry only have your current hp slashed, doesnt make Bs or parries useless but doesnt make them a persons sole attacking method


    _________________
    "War is based on deception"- Sun Tzu

    "No matter how honourable you think you are we all have a darkside"
    Despair shall become you


    lordgodofhell wrote:I love receiving hatemail but this is more like stupidmail on his part. Still, I can feel his pain. I mean, we all know Billy is OP need nerf.

    Graelaoch wrote:! Oh yes, Billy is Op and needs nerf. laughing

    Animaaal
    Compulsory Poster
    Compulsory Poster

    Posts : 3419
    Reputation : 175
    Join date : 2013-01-17

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:29 pm

    %$#@it!

    I owe billy a +1.
    avatar
    billy_bayonet
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 5912
    Reputation : 177
    Join date : 2012-02-27
    Age : 28
    Location : ENGLAND!!!

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by billy_bayonet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:32 pm

    why o.O


    _________________
    "War is based on deception"- Sun Tzu

    "No matter how honourable you think you are we all have a darkside"
    Despair shall become you


    lordgodofhell wrote:I love receiving hatemail but this is more like stupidmail on his part. Still, I can feel his pain. I mean, we all know Billy is OP need nerf.

    Graelaoch wrote:! Oh yes, Billy is Op and needs nerf. laughing
    avatar
    skarekrow13
    Chat Moderator

    Posts : 10236
    Reputation : 410
    Join date : 2012-01-27
    Location : Ralph Wilson Stadium

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:34 pm

    I think he likes your idea

    avatar
    billy_bayonet
    Chosen Undead
    Chosen Undead

    Posts : 5912
    Reputation : 177
    Join date : 2012-02-27
    Age : 28
    Location : ENGLAND!!!

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by billy_bayonet on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:36 pm

    it would take some work, like would HR allow for near 45% and 90% damage


    _________________
    "War is based on deception"- Sun Tzu

    "No matter how honourable you think you are we all have a darkside"
    Despair shall become you


    lordgodofhell wrote:I love receiving hatemail but this is more like stupidmail on his part. Still, I can feel his pain. I mean, we all know Billy is OP need nerf.

    Graelaoch wrote:! Oh yes, Billy is Op and needs nerf. laughing
    avatar
    LunarFog
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1856
    Reputation : 109
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Age : 22
    Location : Darkroot Basin

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by LunarFog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:47 pm

    Just because they replaced a poorly implemented device with a less poorly implemented device doesn't make either one a "blessing"




    Last edited by LunarFog on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

    avatar
    Soris Ice Goldwing
    Lordvessel
    Lordvessel

    Posts : 7540
    Reputation : 74
    Join date : 2012-12-07
    Age : 22
    Location : Here, there, nowhere

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:49 pm

    Animaaal wrote:%$#@it!

    I owe billy a +1.

    There! The idea is not half bad. I can live with that.


    _________________

    Sponsored content

    Re: Why the Hornet Ring was a GOOD addition

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:59 am