About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

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    About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Zeta Prime on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:55 am

    Iv always wondered why Gwyndolin almost heartlessly lets the chosen undead dispose of Ornstein, one of his fathers knights. Gwyndolin is the only remaining diety in anor londo and he is running the place. Why would Gwyndolin even need to manipulate the "chosen" undead if he's got ornstein? Iv been thinking and wondering why gwyndolin did't just send ornstein on this quest, obviously he doesn't exactly give a **** what happens to him. I know the chosen undead is just for the sake of the game but does anyone get where im coming from?

    Sry if you guys think this is rather stupid, iv never posted in the archives before. Just wanted to give you guys some more food for thought. Cheers


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:13 am

    That's a good thought actually. I've always doubted how much control over Ornstein anyone actually has. There's also the possibility that Ornstein is onto the agenda. If he is still loyal to Gwyn, he won't budge if there's a chance someone wants the Lordvessel to go after Gwyn

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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Rynn on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:20 am

    I always thought of the two warriors as Hollow.
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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Hue on Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:38 pm

    Rynn wrote:I always thought of the two warriors as Hollow.
    How come they would never try to kill each other?
    Or that they remain in that chapel?


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by DE5PA1R on Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:52 pm

    The Chosen Undead must be Undead. Ornstien and Smough aren't Undead.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by EarthScraper on Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:49 pm

    Well, Ornstein's Symbol is the Leo (Lion). Lions are typically show to be prideful in nature. Perhaps, Ornstein was, like the Lion, a prideful guy, so he would never bow down to Gywndolin, and thus serve Gwyn, believing that Gwyn was far more worthy then Gwyndolin (If Ornstein actually knew about Gwyndolin and his influence on Anor Londo, that is)


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:04 pm

    Going on a long shot idea but what if Ornstein was testing your abilities? As far as I see the only challenge we really faced was getting past Sen's, something Seigmeyr(?), Solaire and likely the Darkmoon Knightess already did. We just made it harder by killing a giant iron golem. Perhaps it was Ornstein's or Gwyndolin's idea that only the true chosen undead could kill Ornstein, who is a knight of Gwyn, a powerful person at that. Therefore whoever kills Ornstein has the right to claim the Lordvessel and go after Gwyn. Gwyn is a hollow and the fire is dying, which means the gods lose their power. Making Gwyn a nuisance and has to go. Which is my reason why Gwyndolin doesn't try anything against you aside from his job as a god of justice.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Rynn on Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:45 am

    Hachouma wrote:
    Rynn wrote:I always thought of the two warriors as Hollow.
    How come they would never try to kill each other?
    Or that they remain in that chapel?
    Why do the undead warriors in the burg not attack each other?
    Hollow does not mean "Rabidly attack everything", Hollows seem to protect each other.
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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by DE5PA1R on Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:54 pm

    Rynn wrote:Hollow does not mean "Rabidly attack everything", Hollows seem to protect each other.

    Only Undead go Hollow.
    S&O aren't Undead.
    Therefore S&O can't be Hollow.
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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by DE5PA1R on Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:20 pm

    Back on topic.

    I have been trying to figure out why the Chosen must be a Chosen Undead. Why not have somebody else kill Gwyn? If Smough and Ornstein could team up, they might have stood a chance. Kinda.

    Yesterday, while watching one of ENB's vids where he ponders the same thing, it hit me. I think it's something the community hasn't answered yet because of an underlying false assumption: that the Link the Fire ending is a never-ending cycle where someone gives their life to kindle the flame until the next Chosen Undead can do the same. I no longer think this is the case; there is a reason why it must be an Undead that links the fire.

    On to the theory:

    Given:
    There were rituals that experimented with the nature of Undead regeneration. We know this from the descriptions of the Server the Butcher Knife, Smough's Hammer, and the Homeward Bone. The Undead Cook and the nature of the Bonfires also give us hints. We can reasonably assume there were gods or humans who ate Undead, likely hoping to gain power and/or immortality from the devoured regenerating tissue. This is a trope in many mythologies.

    Hypothesis:
    Gwyn went to Link the Fire, probably assuming he would successfully recreate the First Flame and everything would return to "normal." The gods waited, then after a time realized that Darkness was creeping back upon the world and would inevitably take over. Thus, a plan for someone to succeed Gwyn was hatched. But the gods wanted to avoid an infinite cycle. They knew that whomever linked the fire must serve as kindling indefintely. Perhaps it was a suggestion from Smough, or Gwyndolin made the connection himself:

    An infinitely respawning corpse of a hero would make a perfect ember. An Undead fit the bill perfectly.

    Revolted at the thought - that the lowest beings on the totem pole would save them all - most of the gods refused. They left, abandoning Anor Londo to Seath and Gwyndolin. S&O were somehow convinced to stay, either tempted by the prospect of killing Undead time and again or otherwise deceived by Gwyndolin. An image was made of Gwynevere, and Frampt was promised a reward to show potential Undead the way forward.
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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Zeta Prime on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:43 pm

    sry been away for a few days...

    umm if only undead can go hollow than how is gwyn hollow? is he undead? We know gwyn was good friends with havel and he went undead so i guess it could be possible.

    and thanks everyone for the posts some great ideas to read here big grin.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Zeta Prime on Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:47 pm

    If he is still loyal to Gwyn, he won't budge if there's a chance someone wants the Lordvessel to go after Gwyn

    If he was still loyal to gwyn wouldn't he want someone perhaps even himself to get the lordvessel to re-link the dying flame?


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by DE5PA1R on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:13 pm

    Poliwrath wrote:sry been away for a few days...

    umm if only undead can go hollow than how is gwyn hollow? is he undead? We know gwyn was good friends with havel and he went undead so i guess it could be possible.

    and thanks everyone for the posts some great ideas to read here big grin.

    Gwyn isn't Hollow. He's just really, really old.

    Havel was a human compatriot of Gwyn who was turned Hollow after his betrayal.
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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Dibsville on Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:20 pm

    I'm pretty sure Gwyndolin sent Ornstein to protect the Lordvessel, so with Orn's death, the chosen undead would have "proven" himself, and as such Gwyndolin would let them have the Lordvessel. Then again, when you kill the phanom Gwynevere he gets all pissed off even though it's not a real person.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by alchemydesign on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:04 pm

    Okay, here goes my opinion on the matter:

    Ornstein either doesn't know that Gwynevere is an illusion, or is in collusion with Gwyndolin to make the illusion convincing to the chosen undead. He is indeed the lion, and would choose duty over other endeavors, plus O&S are not gods but knights, they could not keep the fire burning for they do not possess lord souls but the chosen undead does in the form of the dark soul.

    Gwyn isn't hollow, linking the flame burned away his sanity. The term chosen undead itself is not something that humanity created, but rather by those who are perpetrating the legends, i.e. Gwyndolin, Primordial Serpents. It is natural to confer a title to one whom you would wish to manipulate. Give them an inflated sense of importance and a neat little story and they would be none the wiser...which, in my opinion, is seen through by Lautrec.

    One other point, we do not know if the God's were losing their powers, just their dominion, it's not certain if the flame went out that they would be COMPLETELY powerless...they were possessed of Lord Souls.
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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Hallsey on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:41 pm

    Under the deitys section in the wiki. a discription explains that gwyndolin becomes corrupt becuase of the past events that happend in the undead city, anor londo; aswell as the corruption having to do with seath on his part. Im not quit sure where the supportive evidence for that is however one thing is obvious. The only things that gwyndolin cares for is the portection of the dark moon tomb and the truth of gwynevere actually being an illusion kept secret from the world. thus explaining the reason for smough and ornstien guarding the chambers. to gwyndolin, orntsiens death was simply his failure to do his duty, paying with his life.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Latitoast on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:53 pm

    I think Ornstein and Smough are supposed to be another "test"

    The Iron Golem exists to guard Sen's right? That's why the Gods made him. Maybe, as one of Gwyn's final commands, he ordered O&S to guard the Lordvessel, so that when someone comes that they are killed by, it is evident that he is successor. Something tells me Gwyn wouldn't just leave without any plan to have a heir to the throne.(or well, fire) They are to remain there, killing any who enter their room, because Gwyn's successor should be the only person who has the ability to best them.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Scurrilous Straggler on Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:39 am

    I'm pretty sure the Iron Golem exists to protect Anor Londo... if it were there to protect Sen's then it would be at the beginning. By the time you get to the Iron Golem, you've pretty much had your run of Sen's.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by Latitoast on Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:22 pm

    Sen's is a test, Anor Londo is your final exam.

    Sen's guards the way to Anor Londo, but Anor Londo guards the Lordvessel.

    Something tells me that the Silver Knights aren't just sitting there for no reason, with only certain doors locked and others unlocked.

    It's all a test to see if you are truly the Chosen Undead.


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    Re: About Ornstein and Gwyndolin

    Post by alchemydesign on Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:29 pm

    The silver knights are Gwynevere's protectors...I forget which item it was but one states that half of Gwyn's knights followed him to the Kiln and ended up Black Knights and the other half stayed to protect the Goddess of the Sun.

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