So. . . Gwyndolin

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    So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:32 pm

    Everyone is convinced that gwyndolin is the main manipulator behind the link to the flame ending. This seems to stem from one of ENB's video where he does alot of speculation. I have to say I disagree. And I would care to go over a few points.

    Link To The Fire
    It would have the same effect as when Gwyn linked the fire, which seems it is slowly going out and need a being with enormous power to sacrifice themselves. So yes, your character is manipulated into linking the fire which kills himself. Does it also break the curse of the undead? Maybe, we don't know. All we know is the dark lord ending certainly doesn't.

    But here is an important distinction. We don't know if the age of fire continuing empowers the gods. Heck, you can have killed most of the important gods by the time you link the flame. So we really don't know to what effect linking the Flame has upon lordran. What we are told is that it ends the curse of the undead, but we don't know if it does. We also know Gwyn did it at one point, but that seems to be to counter the chaos flame, and made his faithful knights into an elite demon fighting force. And lastly we know Fraampt wants you to do it.


    Gwyndolin
    It has become a common theme in the community that gwyndolin is the mastermind behind the chosen undead story. The main reason being that his illusion of Gwynevere gives the player the lord vessel. And secondly because he keeps anor londo bright, which has been interpreted as him trying to make it seem like the Age of Fire is still going on.

    There are a few problems with this.

    If Gwyndolin is the one keeping Anor Londo light and making the Gwynevere illusion, then why if you kill him neither of these are effected? Certainly he aggros if you kill the Gwynevere illusion, but if the other way around nothing happens.

    Furthermore why is everyone convinced the Gwynevere we see is an illusion? The only evidence we have of this is when Gwyndolin states, "Thou hast tarnished the godmother's image." This phrase could mean any amount of things. From Gwynevere having just been an image, to him making a reference to archetypes, simply due to him killing a god.

    More likely it seems that Gwynevere would be in the flesh when we meet her. She has her own covenant that she can bestow, and like I said before, if gwyndolin is killed first she remains.

    It is more likely that Anor Londo going dark is not because Gwyndolin ends an illusion than Gwynevere was a presence that kept it light and she is now dead. If Gwyndolin really was keeping it light as a ruse, then why would he end it once the player killed his illusion. Why wouldn't he immediately through up another illusion and keep Anor Londo light in case any other undead should come looking around.

    So for these reasons I don't see Gwyndolin as the grand mastermind, but more of a honorable romantic, like Ornestein. Who, although his mission has become obsolete, continues to carry it out, and attempts to punish the guilty with an undying vigilance. And otherwise, sits by his father's tomb.

    Primordial Serpents
    For this reason I would have to say Fraampt is the real force behind the legend of the chosen undead and the lord vessel. Lending even more to this argument, he doesn't even bat an eye if you kill Gwyndolin, or any gods for that matter, he just wants to fire linked.

    Why?

    How should I know, we really don't have any evidence as to what the player linking the fire causes.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Intro_To_Madness on Sat Sep 01, 2012 3:14 pm

    I agree with most of what you said here except for Gwynevere not being an illusion. Gwyndolin's soul, (and the weapons made from it) states that he is the only god left in Anor Londo as it describes the city as abandoned, to me, two gods still there isn't an abandoned city, but one watching over it, and Gwyn's tomb, makes sense.

    Also, if Geynevere wasen't an illusion then why does she die in one hit? no matter how weak of a hit it is? She is a goddess with enough power to create multiple miracles, I'd think she would be able to take a weak hit like an arrow from a raw longbow (something I did yesterday). But if she was an illusion it would explain that one hit KO, since it would be like the illusion walls found throughout the game.

    Lastly, I don't believe she drops any souls when killed, unlike every other killable thing in the game. I'd think she'd also drop a soul like how Gwyn and Gwyndolin do, considering she is a god just like them.

    On a side note, where have you seen that the Dark Lord ending doesn't fix the curse of undead? I'm not arguing that point I'm just curious as if never seen that said anywhere.
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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by nsane32 on Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:58 pm

    just because he say its not an illusion doesnt me it Geynevere her self but some kind of entente


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:02 pm

    Intro_To_Madness wrote:I agree with most of what you said here except for Gwynevere not being an illusion. Gwyndolin's soul, (and the weapons made from it) states that he is the only god left in Anor Londo as it describes the city as abandoned, to me, two gods still there isn't an abandoned city, but one watching over it, and Gwyn's tomb, makes sense.

    Also, if Geynevere wasen't an illusion then why does she die in one hit? no matter how weak of a hit it is? She is a goddess with enough power to create multiple miracles, I'd think she would be able to take a weak hit like an arrow from a raw longbow (something I did yesterday). But if she was an illusion it would explain that one hit KO, since it would be like the illusion walls found throughout the game.

    Lastly, I don't believe she drops any souls when killed, unlike every other killable thing in the game. I'd think she'd also drop a soul like how Gwyn and Gwyndolin do, considering she is a god just like them.

    On a side note, where have you seen that the Dark Lord ending doesn't fix the curse of undead? I'm not arguing that point I'm just curious as if never seen that said anywhere.

    The descriptions simply say the city is abandoned, and being two gods is a little less abandoned than just Gwyndolin, but in my opinion still abandoned. Normally it would seem there would be an entire pantheon as well as other people filling the city.

    On her dieing to weak hits: obviously her model wasn't going to do anything other than sit there, so it couldn't aggro. And it would be somewhat awkward to shoot an arrow into her forehead and to just continue sitting there so the Devs probably decided to just have her die from any hit.

    Her not dropping anything is some evidence towards her being an illusion, but I'm just pointing out, there isn't a ton.

    And if the dark lord ending ended the curse then the main player would finally die.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:17 pm

    We've explicit proof that the real gwynevere isn't there.

    The Princess of Sunlight left Anor Londo along with many other deities, and later became wife to Flame God Flann

    - Ring of the Sun Princess


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Intro_To_Madness on Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:26 pm

    I see your point on the city being "abandoned", i suppose that just comes down to an individuals view on that.

    However, while I completely agree her just sitting their and taking hits without aggro would be weird, I'm reminded there is another covenent leader in the game that just sits their and takes damage, the stone dragon in ash lake. While I think that it's programed like that is weird, they did it like that for the dragon so they could have easily done it for Gwynevere, and just made her immortal like that dragon is. It is also worth noting that the crow in firelink is like that too.

    And on the dark lord ending, I always thought of breaking the curse would turn you human, rather then kill you. I also thought its the fire in the kiln that kills you in "link the fire" ending, much like what it did to the black knights.
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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:37 pm

    cloudyeki wrote:We've explicit proof that the real gwynevere isn't there.

    The Princess of Sunlight left Anor Londo along with many other deities, and later became wife to Flame God Flann

    - Ring of the Sun Princess

    My bad, but I still hold on the part about Gwyndolin not being the mastermind.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:47 pm

    Oh of course he's not. He's just a play thing to Frampt, just as everything is >_>

    I really do prefer Kaathe, especially in light of the DLC


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 8:12 pm

    Dark Lord ending wouldn't break the undead curse, because the curse came about when the flame started dying, not when it was linked. If anything, the curse would go on to "infect" everyone, or everyone would just straight up die.

    And looking back, the whole "Gwynevere" thing actually seems pretty simple, if you consider the possibility that she is "projecting" herself there.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:01 pm

    Well, the 'start' of the curse may be BECAUSE the flame was lit Shkar. After all, what keeps the flames in Lordran lit? Humanity. What keeps undead in there human form? Humanity.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:46 pm

    cloudyeki wrote:Well, the 'start' of the curse may be BECAUSE the flame was lit Shkar. After all, what keeps the flames in Lordran lit? Humanity. What keeps undead in there human form? Humanity.

    The Normal humans weren't going around kindling fires. Unless the fires can just "drain" peoples humanity away, I don't see how that could happen.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:49 pm

    I am of the opinion the dark sign is anb aberration caused by the flame's wrongful relighting (Cloud dont bring cov politics into this) which in instelf is an aberration. By the chosen undead repowering the flame or putting it out they are removing the aberration and its effects. Either ending will remove the darksign as its just a consequence of the flame screwing up, and by fixing the flame it will go away.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Intro_To_Madness on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:51 pm

    Normal humans weren't kindling bonfires? the discription for the art of kindling states that the undead can copy the art used by the preists.
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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:56 pm

    Intro_To_Madness wrote:Normal humans weren't kindling bonfires? the discription for the art of kindling states that the undead can copy the art used by the preists.

    SOME people might be, but I find it VERY unlikely that humans as a whole were, and the cities that we see in game are MASSIVE. We're talking thousands of people in the cities alone, which isn't even taking into account all the farmers and such they would need. The odds of a vast majority of them using up their humanity on the flame seems unlikely.


    @Dough: WHY do you think that? Everything I can find (admittedly, not much either way) points to the undead curse being a recent thing.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:59 pm

    *coughcough sacrifices coughcough*

    I mean come on, if you are gonna feed a wild cat would you lop off your own arm or would you provide it with something (or someone) else?


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:00 pm

    I dont know when it sprang up. It probably took over slowly, not a sweeping wind over the world. But remember Balder and Berenike both fell to the undead curse. Anor Londo seems to have been abandoned awhile. Its logical to oassume that it took a long time to destroy 3 kingdoms. And remember leeroy went undead. I'd assume he was in Lordran a long time (no proof just a feeling). Finally Havel. Havel was a friend to Gwyn therefore he was around before he linked the fire. That was a millenium ago. Accounting for a human lifespan havel has been undead around 950 years.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:08 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:I dont know when it sprang up. It probably took over slowly, not a sweeping wind over the world. But remember Balder and Berenike both fell to the undead curse. Anor Londo seems to have been abandoned awhile. Its logical to oassume that it took a long time to destroy 3 kingdoms. And remember leeroy went undead. I'd assume he was in Lordran a long time (no proof just a feeling). Finally Havel. Havel was a friend to Gwyn therefore he was around before he linked the fire. That was a millenium ago. Accounting for a human lifespan havel has been undead around 950 years.

    We don't know that Havel IS human (although that is a good point). Heck, now that I think about it, Havel would actually be a decent candidate for God of War status for the people who don't believe me when I say its the player. I mean, who else has made a miracle that ISN'T a god?


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:08 pm

    Outlanders?


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Intro_To_Madness on Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:08 pm

    Hmm, there is some stuff I've read from the dlc that backs up my theory but I won't go into it cause of spoilers and what not, but it might be possible that everyone can, in theory, preform kindling, but it's a close guarded secret of the priests, but becuse the undead have easy access to humanity it doesn't take training for them or something, I don't know how possible that is, but this game doesn't share alot of it's secrets so specualtions all we got.
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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:11 pm

    cloudyeki wrote:Outlanders?

    That's probably just another god. Heck, we know of Fina, Lloyd, and Flann who have no miracles, and those are just the named ones.

    As a side note, the name "Rite of Kindling" actually makes it seem more like the art of MAKING a fire as opposed to making it bigger. You don't "kindle" a fire that's going, you "stoke" it.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by xMalevolence on Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:24 am

    Shkar wrote:
    DoughGuy wrote:I dont know when it sprang up. It probably took over slowly, not a sweeping wind over the world. But remember Balder and Berenike both fell to the undead curse. Anor Londo seems to have been abandoned awhile. Its logical to oassume that it took a long time to destroy 3 kingdoms. And remember leeroy went undead. I'd assume he was in Lordran a long time (no proof just a feeling). Finally Havel. Havel was a friend to Gwyn therefore he was around before he linked the fire. That was a millenium ago. Accounting for a human lifespan havel has been undead around 950 years.

    We don't know that Havel IS human (although that is a good point). Heck, now that I think about it, Havel would actually be a decent candidate for God of War status for the people who don't believe me when I say its the player. I mean, who else has made a miracle that ISN'T a god?

    What about the occult weapon found with all of his gear? Occult weapons were made to kill/hunt the gods, thats why the ember to make them was hidden away in the Painted World. I think that instantly disproves him from being a candidate for the god of war/Gwyns 1st born status.

    I honestly believe the character with that status doesn't exist in the game outside of text.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by DoughGuy on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:27 am

    Except for the fact the Dark lord may very well be the GoW, in which case he would eb the LEADER of the occultists trying to bring down the gods.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:34 am

    DoughGuy wrote:Except for the fact the Dark lord may very well be the GoW, in which case he would eb the LEADER of the occultists trying to bring down the gods.

    The whole "Dark Lord" part only helps my theory about the God of War. If we accept Kaathe saying that as fact, then Gwyn "blurred your past" to try to prevent your rise as the Dark Lord. Why the hell would he do that to some random undead? I find it highly unlikely that he could just TELL who it would be, which means he probably had a good reason to suspect you. Almost as if you were his renegade child...


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Buggy Virus on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:48 pm

    DoughGuy wrote:I dont know when it sprang up. It probably took over slowly, not a sweeping wind over the world. But remember Balder and Berenike both fell to the undead curse. Anor Londo seems to have been abandoned awhile. Its logical to oassume that it took a long time to destroy 3 kingdoms. And remember leeroy went undead. I'd assume he was in Lordran a long time (no proof just a feeling). Finally Havel. Havel was a friend to Gwyn therefore he was around before he linked the fire. That was a millenium ago. Accounting for a human lifespan havel has been undead around 950 years.

    I think doughguy really hit the nail on the head with this one. Further it is likely that undead were around since the lord souls were discovered, which is why we have undead cities such as New Londo.

    The bigger problem with the curse of the undead is people are starting to go hollow, making them mindless zombies. This is slowly sweeping over the land, and since undead don't die they are slowly growing larger than the human population.

    Further, it's likely humans can't offer/collect humanity or souls, but that it is reserved entirely for undead.


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    Re: So. . . Gwyndolin

    Post by Shkar on Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:51 pm

    Too be fair, the "souls" we get in game are actually one soul each. I'm thinking that the "Souls" everybody refers to is some kind of standardized measurement, kind of like a liter or a volt. If the energy of the soul of a crystal lizard is one, then Gwyn's Lord Soul is worth, what, 20,000?


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