Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

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    Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:26 am

    If I were to make changes to the way poise and strength worked, they would be as follows:

    Poise damage wouldn't be consistent among weapon types, as in this chart:
    Spoiler:
    Instead, Poise would do damage based on the weight of the weapon. That way, certain heavy weapons that are far-outclassed by their lighter counterparts would have some advantage.
    Additionally, more armors would have poise. Warrior set, bandit set, anything with any kind of metal armor. Up to a total number of maybe 20 or 30, just enough to keep the smallest of weapons from screwing you over.

    On strength, the more you have, the less the weapons will effect your equip burden when equipped. They retain their weight, but at say, 40/45 Str, weapons are 30-40% lighter when equipped. I would like this effect to work as Dex works with cast speeds, i.e. you need to commit to Str to see results, so maybe at around 30-35 strength weapons are 10% lighter or so.

    I thought of this because one of the main advantages of Str weapons is stunlock, but as toggle-escaping is becoming prevalent in the PvP meta, as well as occurrences in the forest/kiln/burg with gankers, this key "strength" of Str weapons is becoming, well, futile.

    Any thoughts?


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:54 am

    I wouldn't jump in with 2 feet on this idea, but I think it's worth a look. I also think Strength needs a re-thinking. Not so sure this is the right solution, but it could be...

    How's that for decisive! silly

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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:56 am

    I appreciate the input. It's only a rough sketch, but I think it would be a good addition if fleshed out. It's all hypothetical anyway. silly


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Zephryl on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:00 am

    Looks like a neat idea~

    Would probably need to be tweaked a bit to be actually implemented, but it could be good~

    Would also be nice to have more stats have "Secondary" effects, like Dex with cast speed~ As far as I know, STR, INT and Faith don't have any secondary effect which kinda sucks.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:01 am

    I know in Demon's Souls, faith boosted magic defense. It really complemented the whole magic-vs.-miracle idea. Too bad faith builds tended to be almost unstoppable if used correctly. (I speak from experience)


    Anyway, I really want like this idea a lot. I mean think about it: If I cut you with a katana, you would probably flinch and maybe die. If i smacked you with a giant club, you would either:

    a. Get flattened.
    b. Get sent flying.
    c. Die.
    d. a and c.
    e. b and c.
    f. all of the above.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Zephryl on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:17 am

    Yeah~ Should be some more incentive to use larger STR weps, rather than going for the Dex ones.

    E.g I do a heavy 2H smash with a giant club, which barely misses the player... maybe at 40 STR it cause the ground to shake slightly, which stuns the other player briefly... Not long enough for you to hit them, just enough that if it's a close enough miss, they can't take advantage of the situation either.


    Yeah Magic Def would be good, they just need something so that putting points into a stat unrelated to your build might have a point...


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:21 am

    Part of the issue seems to be that Strength Weapons may have been more so intended for PvE, while Dex weapons were for PvP. To go with this idea, shields are in a similar boat. Greatshields are incredibly useful against bosses while not so much so against players. This may have been completely a side effect of the system and more so just a thing of the PvP meta, but I notice strength works a lot better with PvE than Dexterity. Until you take buffing into consideration. Then of course buffing just makes Dex a whole lot better. It almost makes me think maybe having buffs modified by the weapon's AR would also be a good idea since it gives Dex weapons a complete advantage over Strength.
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:24 am

    It is nice to slam someone for 900+ damage, but in that same amount of time, a buffed katana can do more than that, and a falchion... well... we all know how that ends. I speak from experience, as I used to have a fath/str build that buffed a DGM with DMB. So much damage.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:38 pm

    I love your idea.

    A less complicated version (considering FROM would actually implement another patch) would be to give larger weapons a certain amount of poise??? Just enough to hit breakpoints, maybe 2 or 3 points of poise??? idk.

    Your idea seems like a better solution if the kinks were worked out. I'm assuming there would be kinks.....I'm pessimistic like that silly
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:39 pm

    The most important reason for this "patch:"


    THE DGH WOULD ACTUALLY BE USEFUL!!!!!! OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGG


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:46 pm

    Rolling 2h R1, as long as you can medium roll.
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:47 pm

    But I abhor spamming that attack. sad It makes me feel like I'm turning on the easy-mode.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:06 pm

    Now you know why I don't like to use Large Hammers in PvP, except against new players because they aren't good at parrying it normally. But when they do parry it, it sure does make them feel good.
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:07 pm

    I only use the large club, because it's r2 attacks are killer. Well, 1-handed, anyway.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by befowler on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:24 pm

    Zephryl wrote:E.g I do a heavy 2H smash with a giant club, which barely misses the player... maybe at 40 STR it cause the ground to shake slightly, which stuns the other player briefly...

    That already happens, a bunch of str weaps have an invisible AOE stagger even if you don't actually hit the target. GC, zweihander, greatsword, etc.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:44 pm

    It's pretty obvious that Strength and Poise need refinement! And like Tolvo said, Str weapons crush PvE. But I don't think tweaking the systems in their favor would unbalance the game, and I kinda like your suggestions.

    One of the main problems of Str weapons is that they're so heavy, which means you need to sacrifice on armor, which ends up counter-intuitively with Dex builds being able to stack armor more easily than Str builds. So making Str reduce the impact of a weapon's weight on equip burden is a good solution. I'd propose another one, though: that equip burden not necessarily be tied with End.

    I myself like to have only enough End to be able to equip my gear, but then that leaves me sacrificing stamina. And Str builds, on the other hand, need to stack End to be able to equip all their gear, going above the maximum needed to max stamina, and end up needing to sacrifice on Vit. Either way you have to make sacrifices, but in this case Dex builds only sacrifice stamina whereas Str builds sacrifice Vit for an over-abundance of End. Which brings me to your other suggestion: poise for Str weapons. I like that one too--no need to elaborate on it! And I definitely agree that light armor sets needs some poise too. But I think From clued into that too, since in the DLC they gave us the Lord's Blade set.

    But my suggestion would be to tie Equip Burden to both Str and Dex, instead of End. Say: raise Dex by 1 level, get +1 to equip burden; raise Str by 1 level, get +1.5 to equip burden. End would be for Stamina and... probably something else, but I can't think of anything right now. Vit only raises health, anyways; why should End be any different?

    I think Dex's side-effect should be something different from improving casting speed, though. What you suggested for Str is directly tied to making a Str build, and I think Dex should also have a similar advantage, rather than something more-or-less unrelated to Dex builds. Maybe it could be tied to dodging?

    (As for poise-breaking, I'm not 100% convinced it works as we think it does anyways. I do think a few weapons within the same weapon groups have different poise-breaking values, and it is most likely already tied to weight. But if that's only my impression and it isn't actually true, then I agree with you that it should be.)


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:53 pm

    I just remembered: I was going to say that the more str you had, the less things in general would weigh when equipped on you. Not just weapons.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:58 pm

    Tying Equip Burden to Str or Dex would have that effect anyway. It wouldn't lower the weight, but it would give you more or less weight to work with, depending on which you leveled up. (It would also make calculations a lot simpler for build-planning silly)


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:16 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:...Which brings me to your other suggestion: poise for Str weapons. I like that one too--no need to elaborate on it!...

    I've always thought that was a good idea. I'd actually love to see what some of the greater minds in this forum would come up with.

    I'm not dicsiplined enough to calculate the possibilities, but I would be very interested to know what BLA1NE and other forum vets would consider appropriate.
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:02 pm

    I think it's a good suggestion because it would make the problem easily balance itself out. Problem: Str weapons are too heavy, makes it harder for Str builds to stack armor compared to Dex builds with their lightweight weapons. But if the weapons themselves, the source of the problem, had poise, then they'd balance themselves out. Wouldn't penalize Dex builds, would just help Str builds.

    The real question is whether From intended it to be that way. It's possible that they fully wanted Str builds to have to rely on the Med roll, and leave the fast rolling to Dex builds. Hell, it was actually pretty obvious they didn't want Str builds to even med roll, since that led to the DWGR fiasco! So maybe From thought Str builds should be fat rollers.

    Then the question becomes: should Str builds fast roll? Giving their weapons poise would make it easier for them to cut back on armor in order to make weight. Would PvP be balanced if Str builds could more easily make weight and be fast-rolling? Should both Dex and Str builds be fast-rolling? Dex is supposed to have a mobility advantage over Str, and I wouldn't be opposed to them both having ready access to fast-rolling. But then Dex would need some new advantage to make up for them both being the same speed now. Maybe higher counter-damage, or some moves that can interrupt attacks despite huge poise, or something--ideally something that wouldn't force them to rely on a hit-and-roll strategy, because that gets boring fast, for both parties... And to make up for Dex being able to interrupt their slow, powerful attacks, Str weapons should have some weaker, really fast attacks too (or offhand weapons, like fist weapons) that would combo nicely into a main-hand attack (like the kick, but causes damage and stuns longer, but is parriable).


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by EeAyEss on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:07 pm

    Fist weapons need to be faster. I'm not kidding. The primary hand r1 needs to be as fast as the of-hand.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by fujiphoenix on Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:55 pm

    I think buffs need a serious overhaul. There is no reason why a katana should be able to drain 500 hp in one swing. I would suggest that buffs be tied to a different stat than faith and int. My reasoning is that weapon buffs are one of the most dangerous things in the game right along with spells. Why should two stats hog all the uber damage potential? I think buffs should be tied to dex and str stats. That way, you would have to all out focus on weapons to make your weapons do crazy damage. I also think cast speed should be tied to attunment. If I want to make a pure caster, I don't want to have to dump 45 points into a stat ill never make use of.
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:02 pm

    ^Yeah, Dex being tied to casting speed makes as much sense to casters as it does to Dex builds--not much! Being tied to attunment could be good, since the dropoff is quite significant in that stat. If I remember correctly, it takes 9 levels to get the last attumnent slot--quite a lot of levels for only 1 slot. If casting speed was improved between 35-50 attunment, I think that'd be great incentive for caster builds to go all the way.

    I disagree about the buffs, though. As it is now, if you want to get optimal pure damage, you get optimal physical scaling stats; if you want optimal buff, you get optimal mag adj stats. If you want both, to maximize total damage, then you'll have to sacrifice somewhere. On the other hand, if the buff was tied to the stat you're already planning on maxing to get scaling, it would be way too easy to take full advantage of both base damage and the buff. And why shouldn't they be tied to their respective casting stats? They are spells, after all!

    I'm undecided whether buffs should be as they are now, static amounts, or if they should scale with weapon damage, though. I kind of like the idea of really fast weapons being able to take advantage of them more, since ultra-large weapons do so much physical damage already. If buffs scaled, it would just make them a bigger advantage to huge weapons, which already do huge damage, and would make smaller weapons a lot less interesting (I'm talking daggers and shortswords, which would be great buffed, not necessarily the top tier Dex PvP weapons). I think I prefer static buffs.


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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:58 pm

    @BLA1NE

    +1. Thanks bud. But I meant what would the numbers be lol? Ya know like 25 weight = 2 poise? But I enjoyed the thouroughness of your explanation. Thank you.

    In regards to dex and casting speed. Its logical in a way. It just doesnt feel well applied. I mean ya dexterity means agility so to speak, but wouldn't that mean swinging faster, rolling faster, heck even using items faster? By that logic shouldn't strength raise your equipment burder then? I like the premise in which the mechanic was founded, but I think it was poorly implemented and not well thought out.

    I like the idea of casting speed being tied to attunement so much more. I really wish FROM had expanded on this concept.
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    Re: Differences in the poise system and the strength system.

    Post by fujiphoenix on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:01 pm

    That makes sense BLA1NE, I hadn't thought of it that way. But as for attunment slots capping after nine levels, it actually caps at 50 attunment, which gives you ten spell slots O_o I didn't realize how many you could get till yesterday.

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