Definition of 'Griefer'

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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by eneq on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:44 pm

    Griefing IMO is not about the invader but how he makes the invaded party feel, the intent with the grief is to totally trash the other party and make that player feel worse... An example of a griefer is someone in endgame setup that does demeaning gestures...
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by SlakeMoth on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:47 pm

    Well said BackLotBasher. You just about summed it up. My name for an invader who preys on newbies in the parish is 'coward'.
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by meridam99 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:02 pm

    Carphil wrote:There is a diference between:

    1- Griefer with Giants armor, mask of the mother, dwgr and lightning claymore VS host with full havels, Black knight greataxe and dwgr

    2- Griefer with same setup above VS host in black hemmed set with blue tearstone ring, magic estoc+5 and knight shield.

    Carphil...I was waiting for you state the difference.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by Yarxov on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:12 pm

    To me, people using Min/Maxer gear are griefers, it's not playing fair at all.
    Low level invaders with tricked out armor are also griefers on a more overall scale.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by meridam99 on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:15 pm

    This thread gave me an idea, should we create a page on the wiki for commonly used terms that are community generated so that there is a common frame of reference? What I am trying to say is "griefer" is not a term coined by "From Software" or "Namco/Bandai" and maybe we should create a definitive definition for words like "Griefer". Reasoning would be so there is a reduction on the griefing debate, and may actually reduce the actual griefing of new players.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by Yarxov on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:24 pm

    That would be nice, however we would need a poll with pre-made definitions that are clear and professional, not just an expression of an opinion.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:25 pm

    meridam99 wrote:This thread gave me an idea, should we create a page on the wiki for commonly used terms that are community generated so that there is a common frame of reference? What I am trying to say is "griefer" is not a term coined by "From Software" or "Namco/Bandai" and maybe we should create a definitive definition for words like "Griefer". Reasoning would be so there is a reduction on the griefing debate, and may actually reduce the actual griefing of new players.

    Good idea, I would put this:

    Griefer: Players that, while being low-level themselves, invade other low-level players while using High-Level Equipment, most of the time acquired using glitches. This makes these invasions very unbalanced towards the host if he doesn't have High-Level Equipment while being low-level. This also hardens the start of new players in the game because they get invaded by people using techniques and equipment they don't even know and can't counter.

    End.

    What do you think?

    EDIT: As Yarxov said, you could make a poll, with short, resumed descriptions, and let the people vote the meaning of it. My description could be resumed in: "Players that invade other low-level players while using High-Level Equipment in starter areas."


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:27 pm

    Well really the definition should be along the lines of, "A player that intends to cause grief amongst other players."

    Then just have examples of what some might consider griefing afterwards. No matter what there will be some bias in the examples, but I feel for the actual definition you should stray from circumstances and instead provide an absolute.
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by Yarxov on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:28 pm

    But you can grief higher areas aswell, this ignores that.
    Urban dictionary definition
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=griefer


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:32 pm

    Griefers are low level invaders with high-level gear.

    I guess the term tends to extend to generally cheap players.

    In either case, I think Blaine put it best when he grouped all these players into the 'Pathetic' category. Not necessarily demeaningly, either - simply literally.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:45 pm

    btw theGentleman gave a cohesive and all encompasing definition earlier. Unless i see an equally compelling and consistent definition that conflicts with his, his is what i'm going to use.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:17 pm

    Right, I didn't read the whole thread but I figured somebody gave a comprehensive answer.

    I just like the pathetic moniker, as the only reason somebody would resort to griefing or fighting dishonorably would be that they are, in fact, quite literally pathetic.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by lextune on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:55 pm

    To me, invading in the Burg, Parish, the Depths and Blighttown with post Anor gear is griefing. I don;'t see how it can be construed as otherwise.

    You got a guy in the Depths trying to farm Green titanite to turn his +2 divine halberd into a +3 and you show up with a +5 Lightning Claymore...?

    You are automatically a tool.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by ChizFreak on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:30 pm

    lextune wrote:To me, invading in the Burg, Parish, the Depths and Blighttown with post Anor gear is griefing. I don;'t see how it can be construed as otherwise.

    You got a guy in the Depths trying to farm Green titanite to turn his +2 divine halberd into a +3 and you show up with a +5 Lightning Claymore...?

    You are automatically a tool.

    This is exactly what I think griefing is. Post Anor Londo everyone has their chance to get better equipment so you can't be truly "griefed". You just have worse equipment because you didn't explore enough/farm enough. Seriously at Lvl 42 you can beat the game.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by masterofcheese on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:18 am

    It's quite possible to beat this game below level 42. Well below level 42,try level 1. You could easily beat this game below level 10 and still troll Parish for lowbies. With +5 Acended Pyro you can 3 shot most bosses at level 1. I went all the way to Kiln before I started having trouble at level 1 and even then it only took around 15 tries to get Gwyn down (due to ALOT of fail parries... more than I care to admit). Finally I leveled up my endurance till I was level 10 just to be able to take a hit without guard breaking. Granted the playthrough took me around 30 hours. Alot of that time was spent honing skills on each boss or farming mats/souls/humanity. O&S, Wow I don't even want to talk about that one. Four Kings too... Iron Flesh + Havels + 20 flasks ftw. Still took me a while to prepare for it though.

    The game isn't so hard that you can't get to a NG+ under level 10. Just have to be determined. OFC if you do this, chances are when you finally finish it, you wont need that gear to stomp people anymore. In all fairness, just because you get invaded by a CosHavel at level 10 does not mean he didn't earn that gear. Chances are he duped it, but you never really know do you?

    TL;DR: you can beat this game at level 1 if you are willing to put the effort in to it. So don't assume all low levels in endgame gear are cheaters. Though at the end of the day I suppose they are still kind of griefing, but hell they may have earned it silly

    TL;DR the TL:DR?: Ooooh Shiny!
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:39 am

    masterofcheese wrote:It's quite possible to beat this game below level 42. Well below level 42,try level 1. You could easily beat this game below level 10 and still troll Parish for lowbies. With +5 Acended Pyro you can 3 shot most bosses at level 1. I went all the way to Kiln before I started having trouble at level 1 and even then it only took around 15 tries to get Gwyn down (due to ALOT of fail parries... more than I care to admit). Finally I leveled up my endurance till I was level 10 just to be able to take a hit without guard breaking. Granted the playthrough took me around 30 hours. Alot of that time was spent honing skills on each boss or farming mats/souls/humanity. O&S, Wow I don't even want to talk about that one. Four Kings too... Iron Flesh + Havels + 20 flasks ftw. Still took me a while to prepare for it though.

    The game isn't so hard that you can't get to a NG+ under level 10. Just have to be determined. OFC if you do this, chances are when you finally finish it, you wont need that gear to stomp people anymore. In all fairness, just because you get invaded by a CosHavel at level 10 does not mean he didn't earn that gear. Chances are he duped it, but you never really know do you?

    TL;DR: you can beat this game at level 1 if you are willing to put the effort in to it. So don't assume all low levels in endgame gear are cheaters. Though at the end of the day I suppose they are still kind of griefing, but hell they may have earned it silly

    TL;DR the TL:DR?: Ooooh Shiny!

    In my opinion, new players at lvl 4 in Undead Burg shouldn't get invaded by a lvl 1 Pyromancer with Ascended Pyro +5. That's not the way it was meant to be played. Just because you earn (or not) the gear doesn't mean you should invade low level people with gear they don't even know about. It's griefing because you're exploiting game mechanics against other players in an unfair way. You're abusing the fact that even if you already beat the game, if you're level 1, you can invade low level people.

    Obviously this only applies to new guys, because even if I get invaded at lvl 10 by a guy using full havels + Mask of the child + Lighting Claymore +5, he is not going to win lol. This is when skill>equipment comes, but what about new people? They don't deserve to be killed by guys they don't stand a chance. That's why I think that post Anor Londo (including anor londo) it's not griefing, at that point, the guy should already have equipment and enough experience to face anything.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by masterofcheese on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:40 am

    ChizFreak wrote:
    masterofcheese wrote:It's quite possible to beat this game below level 42. Well below level 42,try level 1. You could easily beat this game below level 10 and still troll Parish for lowbies. With +5 Acended Pyro you can 3 shot most bosses at level 1. I went all the way to Kiln before I started having trouble at level 1 and even then it only took around 15 tries to get Gwyn down (due to ALOT of fail parries... more than I care to admit). Finally I leveled up my endurance till I was level 10 just to be able to take a hit without guard breaking. Granted the playthrough took me around 30 hours. Alot of that time was spent honing skills on each boss or farming mats/souls/humanity. O&S, Wow I don't even want to talk about that one. Four Kings too... Iron Flesh + Havels + 20 flasks ftw. Still took me a while to prepare for it though.

    The game isn't so hard that you can't get to a NG+ under level 10. Just have to be determined. OFC if you do this, chances are when you finally finish it, you wont need that gear to stomp people anymore. In all fairness, just because you get invaded by a CosHavel at level 10 does not mean he didn't earn that gear. Chances are he duped it, but you never really know do you?

    TL;DR: you can beat this game at level 1 if you are willing to put the effort in to it. So don't assume all low levels in endgame gear are cheaters. Though at the end of the day I suppose they are still kind of griefing, but hell they may have earned it silly

    TL;DR the TL:DR?: Ooooh Shiny!

    In my opinion, new players at lvl 4 in Undead Burg shouldn't get invaded by a lvl 1 Pyromancer with Ascended Pyro +5. That's not the way it was meant to be played. Just because you earn (or not) the gear doesn't mean you should invade low level people with gear they don't even know about. It's griefing because you're exploiting game mechanics against other players in an unfair way. You're abusing the fact that even if you already beat the game, if you're level 1, you can invade low level people.

    Obviously this only applies to new guys, because even if I get invaded at lvl 10 by a guy using full havels + Mask of the child + Lighting Claymore +5, he is not going to win lol. This is when skill>equipment comes, but what about new people? They don't deserve to be killed by guys they don't stand a chance. That's why I think that post Anor Londo (including anor londo) it's not griefing, at that point, the guy should already have equipment and enough experience to face anything.

    Either way, no matter how you or anyone else feels, they will still do it. They get hard-ons for it. This thread alone has made their Troll-peens erect. They love getting under your skin, the more whining or complaining the more they get off on it. I'm just saying if they got the gear legit, and they want to invade with it, they will. I at least have some respect for the ones that earned that gear. Because I know how rough getting to NG+ is at level 10.

    I now invade people in undead burg at level 10 wearing ridiculous outfits, like say, Painted Guardians gear with Guardians sword (dual weild). Or all the Firekeepers robes and a skull lantern + morning star. I don't grief them I just have fun with them. Most of the time I drop items for people or unlock shortcuts or locked doors. So just keep in mind not all of us with the means to grief actually do it. That said I hope you see I'm not supporting it, nor am I against it >.>

    Side Note: As for getting invaded in the Depths, It's an optional area. I never kill that boss. Any of my toons could invade there at any level. So It's not greifing in my mind. You could get the BK armor and BKGA and still be under level 30 and go ruin people there. Just as easily as they can. Depths, as with any optional boss area, will always be a hot spot for PvP. Simply because you can always invade there no matter your progression.

    And while we are on the subject, what about people just trying to kill Gwyn, having a hard time and wanting to summon help? You have a hot zone right there, and these Pro-Headsmashers, looking for duels hop into their game and hunt them down and slaughter them. What if that was their last humanity? All they wanted to do was beat the game, and you just "greifed" them. The majority of the people whining here, that duel in the Kiln, have done just that at least once I'm sure. But then act righteous by defending the "lowbies". Sounds to me like the people defending this thread are more mad they got stomped by a twink in the Parish, and are just butt-hurt. New players will adapt, and if they don't then they wouldn't make it past O&S without smashing a controller.

    TL;DR: Blah blah blah, griefers, blah blah blah, shiny, blah blah blah, hard-ons??
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by CrackSouls on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:56 am

    I know this is pretty much settled, but I'll give you a real life moment when I scream "*** GRIEFER!!!"

    When I get invaded in Burg, dodge most of the guys attacks and backstab him 3 times to see his armor protecting him from most of the damage, then get stunlocked and killed by a Lightning +5 something.

    That's why I've made "Anti-Twinking" toons that wait to be invaded and doll out some pain. It's not hard 'cause most twinkers really suck at PVPing.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by masterofcheese on Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:11 am

    CrackSouls wrote:I know this is pretty much settled, but I'll give you a real life moment when I scream "*** GRIEFER!!!"

    When I get invaded in Burg, dodge most of the guys attacks and backstab him 3 times to see his armor protecting him from most of the damage, then get stunlocked and killed by a Lightning +5 something.

    That's why I've made "Anti-Twinking" toons that wait to be invaded and doll out some pain. It's not hard 'cause most twinkers really suck at PVPing.

    See that, the man stood up and fought fire with fire. Makes the "Dark Spirit xxx has Invaded" seem so sweet, doesn't it? Best part, you can level up and still be invaded. You could go all the way to 20 almost, stack 99 humanity and just roll these fools all day long. At 20 with 99 humanity and a decent weapon you wont even need heavy armor to stomp these guys. Just max out your endurance and you can guard break them all day.

    Depths though, that's a different beast all together. I like luring invaders to the sewer channels. Jump a hole and fire poison arrows and dung pies at them while they rush to get you. Then I run circles around the channels jumping the holes till they fall in one. Man I bet they get so mad xD. Or even better, wait near a hole till they try and jump over it and fire off a fire storm while they are in mid run, by the time they notice the cast its too late and they commited to teh jump. Make sure to send them a "LOL GG NUB, NICE DERP MASK KTHXBYE" message when they die.

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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by Mike-Lassen on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:21 am

    In my mind, a griefer is simply a player that is out to grief others. Someone that plays primarily to ruin other peoples day. The true token of success is the hatemail they get.

    I am sure there are many ways to do this other than invading in Undead Burg with lightning equipment.





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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by masterofcheese on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:35 am

    Mike-Lassen wrote:In my mind, a griefer is simply a player that is out to grief others. Someone that plays primarily to ruin other peoples day. The true token of success is the hatemail they get.

    I am sure there are many ways to do this other than invading in Undead Burg with lightning equipment.





    Sure is, get up on the Bear Cat Plateau in the forest and annoy the team gankers with arrows till they exit game. Watch as they get angry, trying so hard to make the jump from all angles while you throw dung pies at them and force them to waste all their Estus with fire arrows and poison!
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by SlakeMoth on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:49 am

    Whatever you want to call them 'griefers' are the reason why I've played most of the game offline and in the process been forced to defeat all of the bosses without help, apart from NPC's like Maneater Mildred. This means that I have been denied use of a feature of the game which was included by the developer for use by ALL players who've paid the entry fee by buying the game.

    This is clearly unfair and as I've stated before, needs to be fixed but just how From Software could go about this I've no idea.
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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:33 am

    SlakeMoth wrote:Whatever you want to call them 'griefers' are the reason why I've played most of the game offline and in the process been forced to defeat all of the bosses without help, apart from NPC's like Maneater Mildred. This means that I have been denied use of a feature of the game which was included by the developer for use by ALL players who've paid the entry fee by buying the game.

    This is clearly unfair and as I've stated before, needs to be fixed but just how From Software could go about this I've no idea.
    IMO, that's a bit of an overreaction. Griefers aren't that common once you get past the parish. I play most of the game online and in human form, and don't often get ganked. Don't let it scare you from playing online.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by aceluby on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:17 am

    reim0027 wrote:
    SlakeMoth wrote:Whatever you want to call them 'griefers' are the reason why I've played most of the game offline and in the process been forced to defeat all of the bosses without help, apart from NPC's like Maneater Mildred. This means that I have been denied use of a feature of the game which was included by the developer for use by ALL players who've paid the entry fee by buying the game.

    This is clearly unfair and as I've stated before, needs to be fixed but just how From Software could go about this I've no idea.
    IMO, that's a bit of an overreaction. Griefers aren't that common once you get past the parish. I play most of the game online and in human form, and don't often get ganked. Don't let it scare you from playing online.

    I agree. Once you're past the lower burg there are far fewer 'griefers', though that doesn't mean you won't be invaded, just that you won't be invaded by twinked out toons, which is the way the game is supposed to be played. Once you get to Sens and Anor there is really no reason to play offline, though I did have to once in Anor simply because every time I was on my way to O&S I would get invaded, which would ruin the run since I was a mage. I had to play offline for that one.


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    Re: Definition of 'Griefer'

    Post by djgq42 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:11 pm

    i actually find that griefers are pretty common in the depths as well. there are two ppls in particular that frequent that area. one is a wog/ sb user and the other spams firestorm/tempest in full bk armor.

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