The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

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    Madara
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    The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by Madara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:31 pm

    Many of you are aware that i have made a theory about how Blighttown was flooded in order to seal Lost Izalith from spreading demons across Lordran and they switched to New Londo when it started there. I'm beginning to think that's the least of something much bigger.

    Can Any Lore-Head tell me a correlation between Chaos and the Abyss? Humanity is that correlation. It doesn't seem apparent and it only came in a fleeting thought when i was improving a Zweihander. In the Abyss we realize that, Oolacile unlocked the power of the abyss possibly in order to learn to art of life drain, the art of taking humanity. The Abyss was created through Ancient Manus, Father of the Abyss and Primeval Man. His Humanity went wild and created the Abyss from it.

    Chaos was created by the Witch of Izalith in order to save them as the First Flame was dying. She used a soul to create another artificial flame, which ended up going out of control and consuming her and her family. The Chaos flame has been likened to radiation mutating the Izalith family based on what was closest at hand at the time i.e. the Bed of Chaos was created because the witch of Izalith was nearest an arch tree, Quelaag and the fair lady where near spiders, Ceaseless was near lava, etc etc. It, for the point of argument "went wild". What is seen in the demon ruins? another door to the kiln. Who has access to the Kiln? Frampt and Kaathe, i'll get back to them later.

    The humanity and the sorceries related to it in the Abyss and Oolacile show that Humanity is harmful to humans when under the will over another. Chaos is the same except it has shown that with the fires radiation, it mutated everything around it. What reinforces the power of chaos? Humanity. Now to the important part. Their was a soul used to produce Chaos. Who's soul? A direct follower of the fertive pygmy.

    Now i have managed to link two of the greatest threats in Lordran, now to tie it up a bit more. The Dark Ember, no one in living memory remembers this ember, yet how was a rebellion insighted with it? What blacksmith had it? Was it passed down? or was it the person who made it? The point i'm trying to make is that whoever created this Ember needed to steal Nito's power, one of the four lords. Now who could survive an encounter like that? He has the power over death. A person full of humanity. Everyone knows that pumping yourself with humanity makes your stats better, making you stronger. Occult weapons were forged in rebellion against the gods, now who would forge for such a cause? A follower of the fertive pygmy.

    Manus, The Unknown Follower, The Dark Ember Blackmith, The Chosen Undead, The pygmy's own knights in his fight against the Age of fire. I think the Pygmy kept growing stronger after he or she got the dark soul. Its power was continully divided among the people of Lordran but the dark soul grew more powerful with time and Lordran started to lead to the rise of man but the gods kept grasping for power.

    The pygmy wanted for his or her children to live free of the oppression of the gods. So he divided his power between four of his Followers and they were set with the task of bringing forth an age of darkness in which man could rise. You the chosen undead die, and lose the humanity you were granted and you lose track of who or what you are before you died. Fortunately the Pygmy had some helpers. Helpers that feared the wrath of the god and wanted to seek darkness. The primordial Serpents. The primordial serpents inherited the Pygmy's will and their goal is to lead you to killing Gwyn and leaving the fire die. They also act as catalysts to events, Kaathe awakened Manus, Frampt then produces the circumstances in which The Witch of Izalith used the Soul of the Follower.

    I think however now, during The Chosen Undeads pilgrimage that Frampt genuinely wants you to create a new age of fire, but thats a meager thing, he's immortal he doesn't have to worry about the consequences because if he sides with the gods and they win he's okay, if he sides with the gods and they die, no one else has the power to kill him.

    Thats the theory now guys so what do you think?
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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by XKnightArtoriasX on Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:06 pm

    I think my head just exploded.


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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by Madara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:02 pm

    XKnightArtoriasX wrote:I think my head just exploded.
    Can i take that as a complement? silly Still needs a bit of work but thats what i've got at the moment.
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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by XKnightArtoriasX on Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:19 pm

    Madara wrote:
    XKnightArtoriasX wrote:I think my head just exploded.
    Can i take that as a complement? silly Still needs a bit of work but thats what i've got at the moment.
    No man you did a great job, but Dark Souls lore is just so big and deep for one man's head to handle all of it. Prostration


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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by Madara on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:38 pm

    XKnightArtoriasX wrote:
    Madara wrote:
    XKnightArtoriasX wrote:I think my head just exploded.
    Can i take that as a complement? silly Still needs a bit of work but thats what i've got at the moment.
    No man you did a great job, but Dark Souls lore is just so big and deep for one man's head to handle all of it. Prostration
    That's the reason so many people gravitate towards the series. Either way this theory of mine needs more input silly I think i have something, i just need more item descriptions and stuff.
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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by dalsio on Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:05 am

    Well, I have yet to finish the game (and I probably should do that before delving into the lore here) but from what I've seen so far, I'll input my take on the matter.

    Clearly, one indisputable connection with humanity is, in fact, humanity. One might say human kind would not exist without it, and vice verse.

    From the intro alone, I always got the impression that before the Age of Fire, there was no humanity. There were no gods, no demons, no chaos, no order, no light, and no dark. There was only Dragon, and the endless expanse. With the advent of fire, came all these things, but humanity was not one of them. Gwyn, with his knights and kingdom, represents Order. The Witch of Izalith, with her un-tameable fire represents chaos. Nito, lonely purveyor of death, represents evil. Who then represents good? The pygmy? Who knows.

    I propose that humanity is not tied to chaos or darkness or light or order alone, but the culmination of all of these. Within humanity, lies a great capacity for destruction or creation and they constantly hold a careful balance of these prime forces, one that can be tipped easily. The acquisition of humanity is not only for chaos servants and darkwraiths, but for followers of good and order; as humanity is, for all intents and purposes, a multi-use currency. The only difference is the method of acquisition. Darkwraiths and chaos servants seek humanity through death, while the good and orderly seek humanity through life.

    It always seemed to me, that the abyss was not darkness itself, nor does Kaathe follow or control the abyss. The tie between the darkness and the abyss is one of convenience. The abyss is a beast, an insatiable hunger for humanity. It seeks humanity in it's basic form at any cost, and consumes it without giving back. Likewise, the darkness seeks humanity, but not to eat or use it, but to destroy it. Humanity is a product of the age of fire, of good, evil, order, and chaos. The darkness seeks not the prominence of man, but the end of good and evil. It understands that by destroying good, it destroys evil, and it believes that the sacrifice is worth it, and that nothingness is better than this constant conflict and battle in the world and within all humanity.

    As for the gods. It seems to me, that the boundaries between deities and humans is blurred. Gwyn was not a god until he found fire, and Gwyn's firstborn lost his godship. Additionally, the player already kills Nito, Gwyn, the fragments of Gwyn's soul, can kill Gwyndolin, kills the bed of chaos, and in the end (I assume, from all this talk) becomes a god. It does not seem to me that the end of the age of fire and the coming of the age of darkness is necessary for the fall of the gods. Indeed, the coming of darkness I believe is the antithesis of mankind, and while the gods hold a high place amongst the kingdoms, I do not believe they are so different from humans, and that the age of fire is not only beneficial to humanity, but belongs to it. They, with their chaos and evil and good and order represent the Age of Fire itself. They are the age of fire and the whole world is theirs for the taking, The oppression of the gods is only in their imagination, in their fear of the great power told in the old tales. I would not underestimate the power of humanity, when the time comes, to rise and take the Age of Fire for themselves.
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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:22 pm

    I'm not sure why I thought of this while I was reading your theory (which I enjoyed!), but a few things poped into my head. First I will say I have not researched any of this and will do so soon , however; these are all off the top of my head.

    1. With Manus being the "Father of the Abyss" is their a "Mother" with whom being the children?

    2. Is Manus buried under Oolicile because this site was the orignal grounds for the rise of humans (from the dark they came folks).

    3. Does this make Princess Dusk a blood relative of the Pygmy or is she the Pygmy herself (highly doubt) and is this why Manus took her, and why she was imprisoned in the crystal Golem (Seath knew). Obviously, she would have had to have lost her memory or something if she was the pygmy, but it's more likely that she is a distant blood relative. But...hiding in plan sight is very furtive... and so are the magics of Ooliciale

    Anywho, random thoughts there.


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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by dalsio on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:44 pm

    Perhaps the royal family of Oolacile preserves the bloodline of the pygmy. As in, the rulers of Oolacile are all descendants of the pygmy and by killing the royal family and dusk, he would stop the legacy of the pygmy. Maybe that is why she was encased in a crystal golem (though that seems unlikely, considering how weak that defense is). But another question, if the pygmy found the fire and assumedly became immortal, would he really need to preserve his line? Did he sacrifice his immortality to birth humanity, or specific key people, such as the player and Oolacile?


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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:42 pm

    dalsio wrote:Perhaps the royal family of Oolacile preserves the bloodline of the pygmy. As in, the rulers of Oolacile are all descendants of the pygmy and by killing the royal family and dusk, he would stop the legacy of the pygmy. Maybe that is why she was encased in a crystal golem (though that seems unlikely, considering how weak that defense is). But another question, if the pygmy found the fire and assumedly became immortal, would he really need to preserve his line? Did he sacrifice his immortality to birth humanity, or specific key people, such as the player and Oolacile?



    With the OPer's theory I'll lay out how I see the intro and what not. This is all heavy speculation and I'm just adding what could be per what the OPer's theory was about.

    It says "from the Dark they came" from this I take all life, but I believe it is specificly talking about humans because of what we see at the time. With the DLC out and about we know that the "Dark" of the Abyss isn't just the lack of light, it is also a (corrosive) substance (see Artoria's Armor description). Right before you fight the Chained Prisoner and head down into the Chasm of the Abyss, look to the left and right the staircase the Dark Sorcerers were standing on. It looks like huge puddles of oil. We also know that this substance has been spread all over Oolicile from just walking around.

    Before the first flame the intro says there is nothing but "grey crags", "the Stone Arch Trees" and the "Everlasting Dragons" (which btw are stone as well). Then the First Flame came... and something I think is important to point out is that it says "from the Dark they came" to me meaning life was born in the SHADOW of the First Flame not from the flame itself. I think the OPer's idea of radiation is backed up in a way with this. The heat from the first flame radiated the "Darkness" somehow creating this ooze (called Darkness see Artroia's Armor).

    I think the fact the Serpents are called Primordial and the men are called Primeval is a hint to something as well. The big difference between the 2 words is that it seems Primordial comes before Primeval... Also, the serpents are assiocited with greed as well are humans (Ciran's Dialouge when you attack her "Humans . .. Always taking what you please". So putting some real world ideas behind it. The Shadow of the First Flame is where the "Primordial soup"/"Darkness" was, which created the Serpents, and then humans. Think about it. . . The Arch Trees are made of Stone, the Dragons, made of Stone. Where did this darkness gunk come from? Did the heat of the first flame melt it from the stones that were around? This could explain why the Primordial Serpents are known as "imperfect dragons" (see Gold Serpent Ring) as they also came from stone. I'd even go so far as to say that the Serpents are still a part of the Darkness seeing as we never see their entire bodies come out of it.

    Humans were born of this ooze as well, and if they come into contact with it again it mutates them farther. Just look at the citizens of Oolicile.

    So the Chaos Flame and the First Flame mutates with radiation, and the Darkness mutates with the bi-product ooze.


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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by Madara on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:32 pm

    Dalsio you need to indulge in the entire game to get a feel for what i'm trying to say.

    Humanity is not something that was originally within humankind. Humanity is actually a corporeal being outside of humans and is only important seemingly once they go hollow.

    You are lacking in conventional lore due to the fact that you haven't had the freedom of looking through everything otherwise the game is spoiled for you. Its common knowledge among most Lore-heads that Humanity are segments of the Dark Soul that were given to every human in Lordran as the Pygmy is the progenitor of the human race. Also a small note on something you said was that Nito represents darkness, this is wrong. He is a representation of Death. There is a big difference.

    As of your talk of convenants, there actually isn't any other convenants that seek out humanity at all. You really need to finish the game first and look at the game in its entirity. Fire Keepers have humanity to keep the bonfires alive and none Hollow NPC's have humanity so that they can keep from going Hollow and thats pretty much it.

    The Darkness is Associated with the Abyss because the Abyss seeks Darkness. You are talking alot more philosophically about the concepts in dark souls. Dark Souls theories is about science more than religion. Its an odd way to phrase it but its the only way. Dark Souls Lore is defined by proof not talking about concepts that might apply without solid evidence.

    Gods as they are perceived in Dark Souls are merely i different race than humans. They exhibit human like characteristics with god like powers. The whole point behind the age of darkness is to topple the hierarchy of the gods and bring about a new age where Humanity can rule the land.

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    Deathsitexxi those questions are actually quiet interesting especially with your reference to a "Blood Line" for the Pygmy. It could be very likely that the Oolacile royal family are "direct" decendants of the pygmy. It would make sense that the direct decendants of the pygmy would create their own hierarchy in which they rule humanity.

    In relation to the idea of mutation from the first flame, i think that its not a mutation rather than a giant power boost. Whenever a player gets souls they don't necessarily get stronger, but when the Lords touched this flame their souls were embued with a major power boost, they didn't change it merely boosted every aspect of their beings to the point they could fight the dragons. Its why their souls are the only thing that can open the Kiln. If you use lightning spears, crystal breath, gravelord sword, Chaos pyromancy or any of that stuff on the Everlasting Dragon in Ash Lake you still won't kill it. However the Lords killed the dragons no sweat.

    The First Flame gave power to the gods. While the Chaos flame was designed to give power to humanity.

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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by User on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:01 pm

    Be hard to see Nito as a being of Dark, when indeed he is also a being of fire. His followers the Pinwheels show otherwise. Of course he lives in a world where light is absorbed and taken away, it does not mean that it is the way of Nito. In fact, much of the inner layers of Nito are not Pitch dark at all, and light is common.

    You should see Nito as the representation of Fire and Dark. Unlike the bonfire, however, it is more so the aspect of the Dark than it is of the Flame, however flame is still present. Baby Skeletons are made out of humanity, which are looked after by Pinwheel Necromancers. Much of the Bone Towers hold White titanite, which is used for both Divine (what they are weak against) and Occult (which comes from the Dark Ember). An Ember is tied to the flames in some ways, however Dark Ember is somewhat of an odd Ember compared to them all, since the Flame is suppose to be a source of heat and light. Nito mostly represents indeed Dark traits, but more so the cold. Deathly Cold.

    Nito is like the Bonfire in tersm of reincarnation. Skeletons and Hollows have similarities. However, unlike the hollows, skeletons have less life than the hollows from bonfires. Maybe it is because the lanterns are not enough, and that they are missing the aspect of 'dark'. Perhaps. the Flames of the Pinwheels/Necromancers are more so similar to Dragon breath than what is emitted from bonfires. Curious though...

    The gravelord servants are known to use the Eye of Death, an eye from a dragon family member, the basilisk. Basilisks are known to curse those with becoming less sufficient, yet also makes becoming human impossible. However, humanity is stronger against curses in general. The eyes of Death act as an Red Phantomemitter, a Reversed Red Summon Sign, and Dried Fingers. The curse is laid upon not only the gravelord, but also those it had infected as well. the Gravelord takes the next step of time distortion, a tie to the bonfire; It allows three blues come to its world (along with a darkwraith and possibly a darkmoon... there can be as seen four enemies in total against the gravelord), creates phantoms in other worlds for players, and has a better connection for invaders (like dried fingers), allowing continous action without the use of spamming. Death and Miasma are certain for many for sure. Yet, gravelords need to be human (like Darkwraiths... both have red phantoms, as invaders and NPC enemies), which is contradictory to curses of a basilisk (which unables the use of becoming human)...

    Still, Nito is not of pure Dark. It is similar to a Bonfire for sure, at it has the essence of both flame and dark. And the bonfire does have ties to the dark, as it is seen with the Dark Spires known as Humanity, the Ancient Rite of Kindling held by Pinwheel, and the Firekeepers with their ties to Humanity.

    Manus is indeed the essence of Dark. Unlike Nito who uses both flame and dark, Manus uses Pure Dark to the extreme. It is the reverse of the Witch of Izalith. Interesting to note, that both Manus and the Witch of Izalith are tied to Demonic traits and vast underground. Both had created beasts and infections that had consumed many. I am sure that much of the Chaos Demons were once a different life that was sprouted and grown to be as they are now. Same goes with all that is taken by Dark. The Shrubs that you see in Royal Forest (which you later see in Darkroot) has a lot of the Dark Infection on them... Artorias, Oolacile, and others have shown possession and misshape. The guy guarding the elevator to the Dungeon Bonfire is an example as well. Please note that the headgear is very much similar to the Sunlight Maggots.

    The Chaos Flame is the Bizarro of the First Flame. the First Flame was a fuel of conflict. The Bonfires are used not for peace, but for conflict. The Sun was the essence of the gods and order, not the bonfire. As you have seen, time distortion shows that there is disorder, which explains itself well. Dark is the essence of, well... let's just say that the Sun is order, as it is designed to shine a path. Dark makes so that it is harder to see. Reasons why many explorers choose something of light (cast light/maggot head) or fire (lantern) to see. Just as well.... Moonlight also takes a stance as well, since there is indeed an absence of sunlight (Read Great Lightning Spear and Sunlight Blade. It should help with what happened with that).

    Chaos is the amplification of Conflict. It is fueled more by humanity, as the First Flame is. The Demons that you face are designed for war and conflict, and many are known to be hard and strong... still, many resemble not of the dragons you face, rather the dragons the gods had faced. Chaos Flame is what it is: Chaos. Gwyn was said to fear the dark by the same serpent that had let Oolacile let out Manus. Yet, the armours of the Black Knights show that they were built to fight Chaos. Since the Flame Witches were known to take power from the flame, is it not easily seen that they were the ones that feared the flame, and thus made a replica in order to stay in power? Sunlight can still pear threw the dark. When a either fire or sunlight is extinguished, it becomes darker. Since the First Flame did die once before you can allow it (Told by Kaathe)... it can be said that things came to disagreement with one lord that was too tied to it. remember, the flame witches had catalysts too that used Flame Magic... magic that was lost and replaced by pyromancy. Pyromancy being directed from the being more, and replaced it entirely.

    The Chaos Flame is the more Flame oriented of the First Flame, although incarnation and time distortion may be absent. Maybe. However, the creatures are distorted and asymmetrical, and not much dark is seen in them at all. Curious, wondered why Chaos Demons were guardians of an asylum that held undead. Undead tied to the First Flame. If you remember correctly, is tied to Gwyn as well. Still, it is also spectacle to say as to why two black knights came to the Asylum afterwards. Maybe they came to clean it up, or perhaps look for the escaped. Hard to say... there is no evidence, however their weapons tell the high tales of Chaos Destruction.

    Still... do not speculate over the difference between the humans and the rest. Rather, I think it is best to understand their ties and connections. Gods are known to create things, yes? Many of the creatures that exist are tied to others. The Silver/Black knights, the giants, the Crow Demons, the Winged Demons, the White Guardian... Much of the 'races' have very much similar tastes to other creatures out there. Gwyn is indeed special, yes. However, when you meet him, he is indeed hollow. Remember, that many who are hollowed in their mind (there is a difference between being a fleshy hollow, and hollow in body and mind) are known to expand in size. The Balder Knights, as well as the Steel Knights, are good examples. When you have encountered the two steel knights (Merchant and Dark Anor), their size is relatively small... that includes Tarkus, who is said to belong in the same country. Balder Knight with the Crossbow, as well as the one that is in Dark Anor, are smaller than other Balder Knights.

    Gwyndolin is small. yes he is. he looks bigger because of the snakes, remember that. But his body is that of a humans. Renaissance in our real world gives ideals of god and man touching fingers... can it not be the same now?

    As for the strange creatures such as Black and Silver Knights, as well as the Giants... perhaps you should see them as forms of... incarnates and the mutated. Like the Serpents of Sens, or the Mimics (to relate to Giant). Or perhaps the Iron Golem (Silver/Black Knights). The Iron Golem gives essence of Dragon Bone Power. The Dragons were known to be an extreme natural force. Humanity and Souls are similar. Souls are silverish white in colour. Humanity is black. Humanity has good ties to souls, although both are distinctively different. Tell me, as the Silver Knights became burned by the Bonfire, that perhaps the essence of the Bonfire corrupted what they were? The Black Knights are one of the only creatures that do not go back to their starter point when you touch a bonfire... if you rest at a bonfire, and a black knight is for example on the firebomb bridge in the Burg... it will NOT reset. Contradictory to how almost every single enemy is placed back in their spot.

    Details, Details, Details.

    By the way, becoming hollow by flesh does not mean you are LIKE them. There are many who are sane (well, one is insane in a different matter). The Hollowed Enemies you encounter have con communication skills, and are known to just for conflict. Some are known to open doors and push levers... but those that hollow in the mind are known to lose any relationship with anyone that is not hollow. For example, the Pyromancer when he goes hollow in the swamp, as well as the chain warrior in the shrine that goes hollow in New Londo. Yes. the merchants that are hollow and undead are indeed not Hollow in the mind.. they both can communicate well. Although the man is insane, at least he is there and relatively 'human'. The female merchant is more so sane, although seems to be a loner and unattached to others (which is not inhumane).

    It is also Furtive.
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    Re: The Fertive Pygmy and Destroying the Age of Fire

    Post by samster628 on Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:35 pm

    TOO MANY WORDS AGGH. To be honest though i don't see how you are linking the abyss and isilith at all. While your points about what people are near to when chaos struck seems possible but i still don't agree with your theory that blightown was flooded. i think the water simply got there from the giant storm drain that is the depths. Someone once said the DoC sealed off the chaos ruins with there nest and this seems plausable but i dont think blighttown was flooded for 2 main reasons. 1 where did the water drain to?. in new londo it all leaves via the floodgate at the bottom of the city. i cant see where the water in blighttown could have gone. 2 The water amount would have had to be huge to flood the whole of the deamon ruins. yes accept that the abyss cant have all been filled with water ether but that is different as physics clearly works differently in the abyss (you float for example) and i see no evidence for this in NL.
    Dont get me wrong though i appreciate your theory i'm just stating my argument against some of it.


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