Does dark souls really take much skill?

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    Glutebrah
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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:51 am

    Knight Alundil wrote:
    Glutebrah wrote:certain tatics require no skill to win. for example abusing WoG/TWOP/new dark magic/ Pyro. to counter those tatics require some skill unless you use GMB.

    Backstabing and counter backstabbing to me requires no skill, its just to easy and simple to do. sure you have to learn how to do counter it.. but once you learn it it is easy to do as opening a car door.

    Can I ask why pyro is stacked next to WoG and TWoP? :|

    spamming GC is a powerful tactic, it is easier to avoid then WOG spam, however you will still get alot of easy wins with it.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by billy_bayonet on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:54 am

    Im an avid Invader Duelist and ganker destoryer, You say this game involves little skill, but i strongly disagree, Obvs you get the monkeys and the Yoghurts who will use the Cheap ways of winning to get an easy kill you cant stop these but it just shows that people with no skill use these.

    Those who dont use cheap tactics and win constantly are they lucky or are skillfull, i can parry most weapons sight blind setup and tank is that no skill? i can cancel bs's i can counter bs i can dead angle im currently learning how to parry dead angle attempts i can use Firetempest to force peopel to dodge and usully have them kill themselves, is that not skill? to carefully plan every move and make your enemy do what you want?

    And if someone uses a dmb buffed washing pole, Well i say let them try give them a hit and parry there sorry *** on the second!


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:58 am

    Well, fair enough. Saying "WoG, TWoP and Pyro" is misleading though.

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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Glutebrah on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:06 pm

    Knight Alundil wrote:Well, fair enough. Saying "WoG, TWoP and Pyro" is misleading though.

    i was just giving examples of spells i also had dark magic in there. did exactly mean WoG used with TWOP. as far as i know there is no counter besides hope to block it and survive till TWOP runs out/


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:15 pm

    @billy_bayonet I can do a lot of these things and yes they do take a form od skill but my point is it takes little skill to be succsful in his game just look at these Gank squads, spell spammers, turtles, spear and greatshieldf turtles and the infamous TWoP/Hornet ring abusers the thing is the game doesn't force you to get better at PvP to get better at it the way other games do as amos said its a casual game and when someone tries to take it competitvely it all goes south, also the deal is if you are terrible at souls PvP then your going to be absoulutely hopeless on any other multiplyare oriented gaem, because in a nutshell. Dark souls PvP can be either very easy or very difficult and this is very dependent on your build, a toddler could be good at PvP just give him the controller to a ganker set up.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by eduardolee on Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:42 pm

    I guess you're right,with tryhard builds,a bad player can easily kill a good one.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by FinPeku on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:01 pm

    @ Kiva - So basically, you think that build > player skill?


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:18 pm

    This game has too many possible techniques to say it takes no skill.

    There are pivot-BSes and dead angles to counter BS fishers.
    There are jump attacks, pivot-BSes and dead angles to counter parry spammers.
    There are pivot parries to counter pivot BSes.
    There are blind, setup, and sight parries to counter buff users (or any aggressive players)
    There are crest shields and GMB to counter magic spammers.

    When I'm playing against someone else, I am always looking to see what kind of strategy I can use to counter their strategy. That is where the difference comes in with gankers and regular players. It is sad but true that sometimes builds will win out over skill, but that's when you use the lag, weakness in their, build, or whatever else they may be exploiting to your advantage.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:27 pm

    FinPeku wrote:@ Kiva - So basically, you think that build > player skill?

    this games PvP is 75% player build, 25% player skill its mostly about optimization there might be a skill requirement for SPECIFIC play styles but really a player with a superior build has a big advantage.

    And the letter X if this game is about technique then why is the majority of non- forum players resorting to BS fishing, Buff builds and katanas and washing poles i dont call that technique i call that try harding, i hardly come across skilled players in unorganized PvP.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by The Letter X on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:01 pm

    I'm sorry to say, but a majority of those outside of these forums that resort to those tactics are very easy to beat. There should be no contest. Sure, there are a few decent players that do that, and they are a handful. But they are just not very good most of the time.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:04 pm

    The connetions of dealt with in the past week are the definition of penis cramp.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Onion Knight on Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:10 pm

    Whaaa .... 'Oh it's about PvP'.... hastily shuts door.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:44 pm

    hmm, could we hold a "twink" build tournament among the forums pvp elite and see how they do? the twink builds may not take skill to use but if used with skill they are really nasty...

    also the reason most ganks are "easy" is because theres little to no teamwork... back in patch 1.05 i ran into a group that had a roar glitcher who they used as a fortress to unload dragon arrows at me with a flipping back stab tank to come rushing out if i got staggered, thats teamwork no matter how ugly it is...


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Rifter7 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:49 pm

    TehInfamousAmos wrote:Haha, Alundi - I think he has probably faced too many hollows in the arena with builds like these and is having a mindless rant: http://tinyurl.com/b3emmw5

    http://tinyurl.com/acr6hbq


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by BackstabFisherman on Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:52 pm

    This game only takes a minimal amount of skill, because there are too many gimmicks that are very effective. This game isn't "deep" at all. You can be a dark bead, wog and pursuers spammer and beat a better player, but that isn't really even the point I'm trying to make. Its that this game wasn't intended to be super competitive PVP.
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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by lextune on Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:27 pm

    Kiva the wanderer wrote:in a nutshell. Dark souls PvP can be either very easy or very difficult and this is very dependent on your build, a toddler could be good at PvP just give him the controller to a ganker set up.

    Nonsense.

    I have lost count of the "cookie cutter" builds I have destroyed with every level and every conceivable build.

    It takes skill to beat a twinked out level 50 DarkMoon when you are a level 15 playing with unupgraded armor and +5 longsword.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:39 pm

    BackstabFisherman wrote:This game only takes a minimal amount of skill, because there are too many gimmicks that are very effective. This game isn't "deep" at all. You can be a dark bead, wog and pursuers spammer and beat a better player, but that isn't really even the point I'm trying to make. Its that this game wasn't intended to be super competitive PVP.

    Pretty much this, it actually reminds me of the Super Smash Brothers Brawl competitive scene.

    The game has some mechanics that are interesting and players who are of an extremely high skill level playing it. They have some real talent with the game and can play in a competitive fashion.

    But the game isn't designed for that. TO make the game fall more towards the skill side you have to turn off items, limits maps, certain characters are flat out better. Solid Snake is fast, hits extremely hard, extremely fast, but is also the heaviest character in the game making him extremely hard to knock back.

    Dark Souls reminds me a lot of it in its PvP. There are players who are very skilled at this game. But there are easily abusabed mechanics and ways to use the system to get easy kills.
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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:57 pm

    Its like a person playing competitive happy wars.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by lordgodofhell on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:30 pm

    Of course this game takes skill to play.

    I understand you may be frustrated at the amount of "cheap" things you notice happening in pvp, but, this is the nature of gaming. There will always be trolls, campers, cheaters, hackers, glitchers, in gaming, always has been.

    My advice would be to join one of the forums legit fight clubs or one of the forum members personal fight clubs. The points you made about backstabs etc are always ruled out of these fight clubs so the victor is usually the more skilled one.

    You could also make your own FCs with your own rules. For example

    -No buffing of any kind
    -No healing
    -No magic use
    -A limit on weps that can be used
    -A limit on max soul level to be used for the FC

    I think the issue here is you are comparing skill to fun. The reason these kids do all the stuff they do on Dark Souls is for fun. Whether I or you see it as "fun" is irrelevant. For some winning is fun. For some, helping others is fun. There are a ton of ways to have fun with this game which is what makes it a great game in my opinion.

    The broken mechanics and such are outweighed by the replay value of this game to me. Never have I run into a mindless shooter or even another RPG type game as the Souls franchise that could be replayed so many times.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by lorenzo110 on Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:41 pm

    I can understand your frustration but remember your playing a game that is advertised as being "prepare to die" alot. Its not suppose to be an easy game at all. Also ganks happen both ways. As much as some would like to pretend it does not, realistically it does. I have seen invaders gank just as much as regular summoner ganks. Period. Once you have come to accept these tactics then you can move forward to just having fun and not taking it too seriously. As far as skill involved I would say yes there is skill needed to play and learn in this game. The skill to stay alive is the primary skill you need and is essential to all veteran players when they come up against suspect tactics see above. Also mastering 1v1, 1v2, 1v3, 2v2, and on. Learning the weapons mechanics and their attack set and their counters. The same goes for faith and magic builds. Its learning the many skills and tactics that will differentiate the veteran players to those noob players who refuse to do anything more then spam R1 attacks and spells. My advice to you would be just have fun and learn as you go along. If you are a very competive person this game would not be for you. You will be spending way to much money on replacement controllers from the Raging you will have in this game. Just my fun....just my opin.
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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by BackstabFisherman on Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:51 am

    I think From intended "Prepare to die" to apply to all aspects of the game, and your deaths aren't supposed to be fair, and could mean you get cheesed by a cheap gimmick, from either the AI mobs, or even other players.

    Lose to a cheap gimmick online like pursuers? Just lol and move on, and maybe you will see the same player again at some point and get revenge? That is pretty gratifying, getting revenge on a player who just beat you like a rented mule. Invade and get jumped? Maybe next time the host won't have his buddies around and you can put some extra love into that backstab kill. Player just invaded and chain backstabbed you to death? Well if he invades again, you know what to expect, and maybe next time you can get revenge by beating him the same way. The game is what it is, so hate the game, not the player.

    On another note, maybe we can have a sticky thread titled "Butthurt Queens". Where everyone can post the applicable gamer IDs of people who send hate mail, and quote what was said, censor if necessary? Or would that be considered trolling? If anything that would make people feel :oops: about being a D-bag just because they lost to someone. Thoughts on this anyone?

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    To try and answer the question

    Post by Grack_Gor on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:42 am

    "Does dark souls really take much skill" to simply get a kill no, there isn't a massive skill requirement for that, the game gives you a range of weapons and spells and tactics that not all players can counter act at the time you attack, however the most effective tactics and weapons do require alot of skill, or at least the weapons and tactics i feel are the most effective as they are harder to stop, thus it depends on how much you want to be able to win, if you want to beat over 30% of the players you meet then yes in dark souls your going to need to be skilled.
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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:06 pm



    What I meant was give a toddler control of a cookie cutter build, yes you can beat them if your skilled but that's not the arguemnet I'm making the arguement I'm making is that with a cookie cutter build you don't NEED to have SKILL to beat other players.

    lextune wrote:
    Kiva the wanderer wrote:in a nutshell. Dark souls PvP can be either very easy or very difficult and this is very dependent on your build, a toddler could be good at PvP just give him the controller to a ganker set up.

    Nonsense.

    I have lost count of the "cookie cutter" builds I have destroyed with every level and every conceivable build.

    It takes skill to beat a twinked out level 50 DarkMoon when you are a level 15 playing with unupgraded armor and +5 longsword.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by Kiva the wanderer on Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:17 pm

    I'm not saying the game takes entirely no skill but what I am saying is that their is ways to totally bypass the skill requirement in the game. Whcih basiccly means that that skill isn't everything in this games PvP don't get me wrong I find the game fun and I enjoy an odd 2v2 or 3v1 as much as anyone else on this forum but this is just soemthing that's stuck with me since I first got in to PvP.


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    Re: Does dark souls really take much skill?

    Post by OrnsteinFanBoy on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:17 am

    Kiva the wanderer wrote:I'm not saying the game takes entirely no skill but what I am saying is that their is ways to totally bypass the skill requirement in the game. Whcih basiccly means that that skill isn't everything in this games PvP don't get me wrong I find the game fun and I enjoy an odd 2v2 or 3v1 as much as anyone else on this forum but this is just something that's stuck with me since I first got in to PvP.

    Of course skill isn't everything. Dark souls is an RPG and as such the way you develop your character and the equipment you use has an impact on how hard/easy the game is(Character development is a skill in itself though). So no you don't have everyone on a even playing field in every respect to make PvP competitively "fair". Some builds are easier to use than others but all builds can beat all other builds so if you're skilled enough you can beat cookiecutters with anything.

    A lot of the PvP is like a game of rock,paper, scissors with regards to how difficult a fight will be. For instance if I come up against some using GMB with my pure Int build I am at a disadvantage and need to change my tactics to counteract his strategy, I can't just say, "this guy has no skill because his build is better against my build than mine is against his". I lost the build rock, paper, scissors and the skill requirement for the fight just increased for me.

    Good builds don't bypass the need to use it properly in order to win because there will always be a weakness and there will always be builds that exploit that weakness

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