Is there life after DkS?

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    edgie_za
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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by edgie_za on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:33 am

    Siegfried. wrote:
    edgie_za wrote:and their opinions count alot more than a casual gamer.

    I disagree with this. Hardcore gamers are, almost by definition, heavily biased. And remember, it's hardcore gamers that have financially justified a lot of the flaws in the gaming industry today, from unsustainable game budgets to a lack of gameplay innovation in AAA titles.

    The great thing about casual gamers is that they don't think about games as much as they feel games. They don't really care about anything except for how well an overall experience comes together, so a casual gamer is the best indication of how intuitive and fun a game is.

    Remember, we all started out "casual", even if the concept of a casual gamer didn't necessarily exist when we started playing games. I remember that my first console was the original "brick" Gameboy, and I played games such as Donkey Kong and Link's Awakening on it. These games were simple and primitive, but they were also exceedingly well-designed. It says a lot about such games that, even as a small child with no gaming experience, I could understand them and play them with a minimum of prompting.

    Take Pac-man as an example. It's the prime, old-school "casual" game, and pretty much the basis of most casual games today in gameplay design principle. You don't need to be taught Pac-man, because the game inherently shows you what you have to do. For instance, as soon as you move, you consume some of the white dots and your score goes up. Alright, so you should consume more white dots to increase your score, right? But then there's the big dots, so we're inherently drawn to be curious. But the ghosts are coming towards us, and a game isn't a game without the prospect of failure, so let's just avoid them for now and grab that big white dot. And, oh, all the ghosts have turned blue and are avoiding us rather than coming towards us. So consuming a big dot is a defensive measure we can take against the ghosts.

    The game has no tutorial, because it doesn't need one. Anyone who plays it, casual or hardcore, will understand the game within seconds of manipulating the controls. And that is intensely elegant game design, because it expresses its mechanics in such a fundamental way.

    Casual gamers are extremely important, because they're free of many of the expectations and biases hardcore gamers have. Remember, a game being simple does not mean it's shallow. Many exceedingly simple games are also exceedingly deep. Take chess, for instance. You take one move per a turn, and if you end on an enemy's space during that move, you take their piece. There are six different types of pieces, each of which can move differently. You win if you checkmate the other player's king. And that's pretty much the entirety of chess, but it's a system with such versatility that players are free to apply themselves as they see fit.

    The last ten years or so haven't just been dark for developers in terms of fiscal pressure -- they've been dark in terms of progressive game design, too. Since we had a period where games were directed directly towards a growing base of hardcore gamers, game developers moved their design towards the biases and tastes of that group. With an exploding base of casual gamers now, though, developers are free to work at a variety of budget levels to suit different needs while also taking drastically different approaches to game design.

    Hear what you are saying, and aggree that Casual gamers are important, infact most games that are being produced today are geared towards casual gaming, where very little investment is required in terms of time, and mental effort and exercise.

    I am just saying that there is a perceived lack of quality in games these days, and that if companies are looking for better qaulity in their games, then speaking to more regular gamers (maybe the word harcore is too "hardcore") will ensure that the quality of their product is better.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by edgie_za on Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:35 am

    Siegfried. wrote:A lot of casual games are actually very challenging and punishing, but they're designed to be played in an "instanced" fashion -- you see how well you can do in fifteen minutes, or see whether you can beat your previous score, and then stop playing.

    As for ten year olds? I remember Ocarina of Time coming out when I was eight years old, and I loved it. It's still considered one of the best games ever. Many, many games designed for children are excellent specifically because of their broadness and intuitiveness. Dark Souls is brilliant, of course, but it's very much the exception; games with this level of complexity seldom have the depth of a well-constructed, well-considered simple equivalent. Simplicity is one of the pillars of "emergent gameplay" -- that is, gameplay that evolves as the player takes actions.

    The thing is that playing a certain kind of game doesn't make you smarter. But designing a good game that can be played by anyone is a mark of genius.

    Suppose that is the differnce between us. When i was 8 years old, I was more interested in playing outside in the sun and fresh air with my friends than sitting in front of a TV. And i was not intending to offend you at all with that statemnt, just just to point out something.

    And was als onot commenting on how clever a game makes the person playing it, i was refering to the effort required from the company making the game. To make a game appealign to a 10 year old is easier than to make a game appealing to someone older, and who has been gaming for alot longer. Though aggree that if you able to hit gold by making the game so well it is appealing to all age groups, then you are good at what you do.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by Siegfried. on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:05 am

    Playing video games and playing outside aren't mutually exclusive. Besides, I remember video games being intensely social during my childhood, even back in the nineties. Before the internet had the answer for everything, or before we could find the answers, video games seemed to hold unlimited potential. Specifically, I remember Pokemon being absolutely huge, and it fueled a lot of speculation. We even had our own, unofficial "Elite Four" in the school. Fun stuff.

    And I personally think engaging children in a game is more difficult. An adult doesn't necessarily seek additional depth, and they're more easily deceived by the illusion of depth. Look at the huge fandoms that arise out of games like Dragon Age, which have obvious dominant strategies. But a child's game, like Pokemon, always has to succeed on the virtues of its gameplay system. An adult will discriminate based on factors like social acceptance, visual themes and mature content. A child won't, so a game that holds longevity in the hands of a strong sample of child gamers likely has a lot of systematic staying power.
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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by edgie_za on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:20 am

    Siegfried. wrote:Playing video games and playing outside aren't mutually exclusive. Besides, I remember video games being intensely social during my childhood, even back in the nineties. Before the internet had the answer for everything, or before we could find the answers, video games seemed to hold unlimited potential. Specifically, I remember Pokemon being absolutely huge, and it fueled a lot of speculation. We even had our own, unofficial "Elite Four" in the school. Fun stuff.

    And I personally think engaging children in a game is more difficult. An adult doesn't necessarily seek additional depth, and they're more easily deceived by the illusion of depth. Look at the huge fandoms that arise out of games like Dragon Age, which have obvious dominant strategies. But a child's game, like Pokemon, always has to succeed on the virtues of its gameplay system. An adult will discriminate based on factors like social acceptance, visual themes and mature content. A child won't, so a game that holds longevity in the hands of a strong sample of child gamers likely has a lot of systematic staying power.

    Like your last three words, "systematic staying power". I would never have ever thought of stringing those three words together...cheers


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:50 am

    Lots of good reading in these last few posts, but I wanted to touch on this statement:

    "The last ten years or so haven't just been dark for developers in terms of fiscal pressure -- they've been dark in terms of progressive game design, too."

    I feel these are inextricably linked. Due to high pressure of making financially successful games, they stick with what works, instead of being adventurous with their game design. High costs are a large factor in diminishing game designs. It's hard to bank a companies future on a 'maybe' or an idea that hasn't been done before. Lots of those ideas fall flat. Awesome ideas, bad execution.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by Hitechhate124 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:37 am

    No there isn't anything good after dark souls! Until they make another. Gaming today seems to be lacking across the board. Games today are way tooo easy! They give no challenge! I remember playing castlevania on NES for the first time and thinking man this is crazy! I still to this day go back and play the sh*t out of those games. Castlevania series was the hardest games in my opinion to play. Unforgiving but rewarding in all aspects. Today I fill that slot with the souls games. I've sat around and tried playing resident evil 6 which really blew a lot of ***! you call that game a survival horror? What happened to the first concept of RE? Remember playing in a creepy mansion? Scared around every corner, waiting for a zombie? I'm really tired of how most games are going. Sorry for the rant but I LOVE Dark souls and I wish a lot of gaming corporations would get the idea. We want fun, challenging, amazing story games! Not games to make a profit. What happened to games like the castlevania series, suikoden's, breath of fire's, legacy of Kain's, tenchu's, the real final fantasy's 2/6/7/8/10/12 & tactics, ogre battles, Zelda- links awakening/ ocarina of time, metroid- 1/2/3, maniac mansion, ETC! I'm really sorry for the rant but I fell upon this forum and felt I had some things in common with you all. It's 430 in the morning I'm gonna shut up and pass out. Sorry just really p****d at the game companies. Lol gnite! Look Skyward
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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by Anonymous Proxy on Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:19 pm

    Just picked up The Witcher 2 for the PC, since I have an uber one.

    Found the config file, reversed it. Now I can actually enjoy this game, and patched it with the Enhanced Edition.

    So nao I can has funs.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:20 pm

    You 'reversed' the config file? What does that even mean..?

    Assuming it's in xml format?


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by Anonymous Proxy on Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:58 pm

    IV_Mark_VI wrote:You 'reversed' the config file? What does that even mean..?

    Assuming it's in xml format?

    Found the code to Inverse the configuration for my gamepad.

    Of course, it got buggy after a little while, started to deadzone me.

    I checked the options, and apparently the Publishers patched in a Inverse X and Inverse Y in the options.

    =| ... ... I was like: T3H HELL? So I went back and restored the format of the config file. fffuuuu
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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by edgie_za on Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:36 am

    Hitechhate124 wrote:No there isn't anything good after dark souls! Until they make another. Gaming today seems to be lacking across the board. Games today are way tooo easy! They give no challenge! I remember playing castlevania on NES for the first time and thinking man this is crazy! I still to this day go back and play the sh*t out of those games. Castlevania series was the hardest games in my opinion to play. Unforgiving but rewarding in all aspects. Today I fill that slot with the souls games. I've sat around and tried playing resident evil 6 which really blew a lot of ***! you call that game a survival horror? What happened to the first concept of RE? Remember playing in a creepy mansion? Scared around every corner, waiting for a zombie? I'm really tired of how most games are going. Sorry for the rant but I LOVE Dark souls and I wish a lot of gaming corporations would get the idea. We want fun, challenging, amazing story games! Not games to make a profit. What happened to games like the castlevania series, suikoden's, breath of fire's, legacy of Kain's, tenchu's, the real final fantasy's 2/6/7/8/10/12 & tactics, ogre battles, Zelda- links awakening/ ocarina of time, metroid- 1/2/3, maniac mansion, ETC! I'm really sorry for the rant but I fell upon this forum and felt I had some things in common with you all. It's 430 in the morning I'm gonna shut up and pass out. Sorry just really p****d at the game companies. Lol gnite!



    Hear u there. Think it's defs a case of wanting to make mainstream gaming more "accessable" to more people, specially those who would never game, or those who would never try difficult games (want to make the time investment in a game).

    Hence you dont see alot of (traditional) RPG's, and alot of shooters (not much learning required when playing a shooter).


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by argotthar on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:06 am

    Gazman0169 wrote:...And so the big question is, will there ever come a time when this soddin game will release it's unrelenting grip on me? :suspect:

    No Bow


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:35 pm

    I think so. I a few months ago I probably would have said no also, but I haven't touched it in a good 3 or 4 months and I've been really enjoying a slew of different games since. It helps to let someone borrow your copy initially. That's what I did anyway. Sort of forced myself away from it. Then I jumped into a couple other games that I really truly love also, which for me was replaying Dead Space 1 and then 2, followed by replaying DA: Origins. Then I got lucky enough to discover a new game, new for me anyway, that I ended up enjoying just as much, which was Valkyria Chronicles. Actually still playing that one.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:38 pm

    Heard lots of good things about that game.

    I believe that's the one where it's squad based combat?


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:01 pm

    Sort of. It's like a combination of srpg and third person shooter. I've always been a big fan of the strategy genre, and was initially a little put off by the integration of action game style mechanics, but I was completely wrong. The game is really incredible, and as far as I know has never really been done before. It's super cheap now too. I bought my copy out of a bargain bin for $14. So I mean, even if you buy it and don't like it you've only wasted $14. For me the only real disappointing thing about it is that we in the west will probably never get any more of it. IMO Sega made some pretty awful decisions for the progression of the series, meaning if you want to play more of it after the first one, a position I'm now finding myself in, you either have to buy a psp, learn to speak Japanese, or do both.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:07 pm

    I'm a big fan of the strategy genre as well; my last favourite strategy game was Gladius. Yeah it was too easy, yeah it was buggy and the AI was pretty lacking, but the concept was awesome. Just wish there was more support for it to really polish up a 2nd installment, or a re-release.

    I would put in a cheat code to make the enemy 2 levels higher, and take off the swing bars so it worked on percentage basis; was more challenging, and was just fun.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by PlasticandRage on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:20 pm

    I've actually never heard of that one. I'm gonna youtube it right now


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:12 pm

    It's strange; I always felt Dark Souls took away my life, and I'll get it back once it releases it's hold on me.


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    Re: Is there life after DkS?

    Post by Gazman0169 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:33 pm

    I fear that I will always be a DkS btch! 🇳🇴

    As after a brief spell back to Boletaria I have now made a triumphant return to Lordran with a Caestus only run. 😢

    Thanks a bunch GrinTwist for resparking my interest, you git! lol

    Why do I do this to myself? :roll:

    I guess the worlds of Unchanted 3, Skyrim, Fallout New Vegas, and Lego Indiana Jones 2 (don't ask), to name but a few, are going to have to wait a bit longer then! twisted

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