Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

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    T-King-667
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    Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by T-King-667 on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:10 pm

    As we all know theres 2 weapons in the game that grant hp recovery per hit. The server (7 hp per hit) and the cleaver (5 hp per hit) in all honesty. You will never get any noticeable benefit from pve or pvp with the health recovery of these weps. Even as a sl 3 sorcerer, with 8vit (531 hp) and say you were at 1 hp remaining. how many hits is it gonna take before you fully recover with a server? 10 hits for 70 hp. it would take about 75 hits to refill your health back to full and thats with 8 vit. I think the server should get a buff so you recieve 70 per hit. and the cleaver gives you 50. even then its only a bit useful for pve. and theres no room for mess ups. But at least the game would reward you for not getting hit. What do you guys think?
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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:18 pm

    I think it's because From didn't want to have the same problems that they had in DeS with health regeneration.

    There you could have the Adjudicator's Shield, Blessed weapon, Regenerator's Ring, and the Regeneration miracle all stack to HP regen. It was ridiculous. They didn't want that in Dark.

    Though in Dark with GCS, Green Blossoms, MoC, Cloranthy Ring, Power Within also means limitless stamina.

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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Seignar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:33 am

    The reason all forms of regen were mega-nerfed was mainly because of what happened in DeS. A build dedicated to Regen had a permanent +20 HP regen/s or so, effectively allowing you to discard all need of manual healing. They couldn't let this happen or else Estus and Humanity would lose a ton of value, particularly in PvE, where the game is centered.

    Among other reasons were the creation of Power Within. They obviously didn't want people to do the same thing they did with Cursed Weapon (FYI, Slightly more powerful Power Within that only applies to 1 weapon), especially since that is a pyromancy anyone can use.

    Honestly, they shouldn't have really implemented regen if they planned on making a limited healing system. The only thing they get is having to create useless weapons.

    Also, Smough's Hammer has HP drain of 10 per hit.

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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:23 am

    the butcher knifes health recovery seems to be 4 hp for me... is it 5?


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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Rynn on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:00 am

    obviously they didn't want people hiding behind recovery, but IMHO they did it wrong. They nerfed it so much it's pointless. The shield for regen needed to be 5 every 2 seconds (which is 2.5 HP a second) minimum to be worth something. Then the recovery miracles are 10 HP a second, which works, but for their cast time, they need to last longer.

    Then we have the useless HP recovery weapons. in PvE, they don't cut it... in PvP, they seriously don't cut it.

    Recovery was slammed too hard.
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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Siegfried. on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:22 am

    I agree with Rynn. For that matter, I think a regen build was an interesting choice in Demon's Souls; you were obliged to use a high faith character in order to make the most of regenerative equipment, which carried some damage disadvantages. The major advantage was in terms of game economy; you didn't rely purely on grasses for healing. But you could get so many grasses anyway that it seldom made a difference.

    All in all, I'd like to see regenerative equipment make a comeback for the next Souls game, especially since regenerative weapons were a nice reference to the holy sword Excalibur, said to make Arthur invincible. In fact, it would be neat if divine weapons provided static HP regeneration per second and occult weapons had higher regeneration values, but as HP drain per a hit. They could even use the old Demon's Souls regeneration values due to the lack of an Adjudicator's Shield equivalent or a Regenerator's Ring.
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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Seignar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:15 am

    IMO, what they should have done was:

    Ring of the Evil Eye: Each hit drains 10+ HP. This way, smaller weapons like daggers got more uses.
    Butcher's Knife: Each hit drains 10 HP.
    Server: Each hit drains 15 HP.
    Smough's Hammer: Each hit drained 50 HP. This is for the reason that Smough's Hammer is a boss weapon, it has incredibly high requirements to wield and it is THE heaviest weapon in the game. In addition, the amount of hits you'll need to kill something is less.
    Sanctus: Regen per 2 seconds scaled with Faith. Regen drains durability (1 durability each tick). [3 at 25 Faith, 4 at 35, 5 at 50]

    With this, since Sanctus is an end game shield and has its own share of drawbacks, it is only right that its regen is more powerful. To make a dedicated regen build, you would require to use faith and to balance out the fact that having this would ruin the use of Estus, it would drain the shield's stability (A fully maxed regen with maximum durability will only heal 2000 HP in 13 minutes).

    The changes in regenrative weapons was mainly because they heal too low as it is. All 3 weapons actually hit hard and so you would barely get any noticeable increase in HP unless you went around and kill the entire area without taking a single sliver of damage. The HP drain as it is is worthless because the weapons deal so much damage you'll barely get benefit from this. The change in the RoTEE is because 30 HP is very little for a ring slot and most of the time you'll want healing DURING the fight, not after.

    Anyways, the way they should have done it was making it possible to make a regen build by making the RoTEE heal per hit, allowing you to stack it with the effects of regenerative weapons for lots of healing. As you might notice, a dedicated regen build would actually have to be a FAI/STR hybrid for the most part unless you want to use the server. Also daggers would get more builds because the amount of hits they deal/s is greater so you can actually heal as fast as Smough's with RoTEE.

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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Siegfried. on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:21 am

    I'd probably have it like so:

    • Sanctus heals a HP value equal to 10% of your Faith stat per a second.
    • Divine weapons heal a HP value equal to half their level plus 5% of your Faith stat per second.
    • Occult weapons heal a HP value equal to twice their level plus 5% of your Faith stat per a hit.
    • The Ring of the Evil Eye heals 1% of your maximum HP per a hit. Each kill heals 10% of your maximum HP.
    • The Butcher's Knife gains a standard bleed effect. If an enemy is bled, you recover a HP value equal to the damage dealt by bleeding.
    • Server heals a HP value equal to its level per a hit.
    • Smough's Hammer heals a HP value equal to the poise value of its target per a hit. For each kill, the user's HP is restored by half the target's maximum HP.


    My rationale here is that some of these are difficult/impossible to stack, and the easily stacked ones are subject to some reasonable limitations. For instance, with 50 Faith and 50 Vitality, a Ring Of The Evil Eye and Occult weapon combination heals 22 damage per an unblocked hit. You could stack that with Sanctus for 5 HP per a second regeneration and it would be pretty significant... but it would ultimately come down to you capacity to lay down hits. And one balancing factor is that the slower (and more powerful) your weapon, the less HP you could heal. The Butcher's Knife alteration relies on you getting a successful bleed effect with it -- yeah right. Not an issue. Server's HP drain ability is potentially doubled in effectiveness, but it pretty much needs it to be viable. And Smough's Hammer kind of sucks as it is, so giving it a HP drain ability based on an enemy's poise seems both appropriate and nasty for what it is.

    If you were just to use regeneration equipment without using drain equipment, your maximum healing potential is 15 HP per a second, but that requires dual-wielding or a Divine-path shield.

    Then again, if you were really, really committed to health regeneration, you could take your Faith past the point of diminishing returns, perhaps with 99 counting as 100 for the sake of determining regeneration and draining values. I think 99 Faith would be a reasonable price to pay for, potentially, 50 HP regeneration per a second or up to 45 HP drain per a hit. Pretty insane, but then again, so are the potentially fast-rolling builds at 99 Endurance.
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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by T-King-667 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:34 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I think it's because From didn't want to have the same problems that they had in DeS with health regeneration.

    There you could have the Adjudicator's Shield, Blessed weapon, Regenerator's Ring, and the Regeneration miracle all stack to HP regen. It was ridiculous. They didn't want that in Dark.

    Though in Dark with GCS, Green Blossoms, MoC, Cloranthy Ring, Power Within also means limitless stamina.
    Thos are all auto heals Theres only 1 equpment item in dks that auto heals and its the sanctus. (2 health every 2 seconds). And theres the regen miracle which is a end game miracle anyway. and it only lasts maybe 30 seconds? and has 2 uses. So if we wanna have a regeneration build of some sort. it would have to look somthing like this (this will be for pve not pve) server as the primary wep, regen as the miracle, sanctus, and rotee. I know rotee gets shafted alot where it only has 30 hp regain but at least even when other players kill npcs the health regain still counts for you. So its still somwhat viable for co-op pve. As for everything else (excluding the miricle) The only way the server can be much use for the hp recovery side of it, is if you keep it at +0 so you can get multiple hits in on one enemy. The sanctus at least recovers health all the time no matter what. Although if you have 1 hp remaining and 40 vit (with rofap) it would take nearly 18 mins to completely recover your health. So maybe with everything combined and you never take a hit all of this together can be worth useing? maybe not...
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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by ssss_2_is_pwnage on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:44 am

    You didn't mention the best weapon in the game sad Smough's hammer. That heals what.. 10hp per swing?

    I disagree with you though. I don't think they should heal more. Honestly, these are weapons that give you hp per hit and would be great for somebody who was good enough to kill rarely being hit but the main point of this effect (in my opinion) is the save your life... I mean come one, how many PvP bouts, or mod gang bangs have you been in where you live with 1-10 hp left? I do it all the damn time.. The weapons these buffs are given to are also weapons with good movesets and good damage (butcher's knife is one of my favorite weapons, Smough's hammer is.. well.. Smough's hammer.. nuff said.. and the serve is a great weapon for dead angle, good damage and the same moveset as a mura with less str requirement.)


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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Emergence on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:30 pm

    Can also look at it as the classic trolling of the mindset of looking for any and all advantage, much in the same way of the Tiny Being's ring. Throwing something in there that just plays games with your head as you kick around the why and why nots. Also opens it up for players looking to challenge themselves using handicapped weaponry, in this instance a no estus run perhaps?


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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:09 pm

    Ok guys I dono. You're all saying these weapons are useless and I just would not agree.

    I have a build that uses a Chaos Server and I have won many fights with less than say 30-40hp left. In these instances I believe I would have died had I been using any other weapon.

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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:25 pm

    the butcher knife is frankly the beast regular axe weapon, all that damage, range and stun ability with a small health regen for a mere 10 units.


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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Seignar on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:44 pm

    I have a build that uses a Chaos Server and I have won many fights with
    less than say 30-40hp left. In these instances I believe I would have
    died had I been using any other weapon.
    That depends, did you hit them 5 times AFTER they initially hit you?

    The problem with regen is that it was never intended to actually be effective or continuous due to the need for Estus and humanity. This is the reason that items that do regen are so weak, they got paranoid with it. Smough's is way to costy for use, Server is outclassed; the Butcher's Knife is the only good one and even then it's not because of the regen. RoTEE is pathetic. Sanctus is WAY to slow, it's boring.

    What they should have done was simply focus on regen per hit, but since they made RoTEE on death (and not really worth it) and Sanctus on seconds, they had stopped the creation of regenerative builds. This is why I think they should have gone with Sanctus consuming durability to heal, so they could increase its power while still making Estus useful. They really screwed up when they were designing passive healing. They tried to fix the problem they created in DeS, but made it useless in DkS

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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by Knight Alundil on Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:57 pm

    Seignar wrote:
    I have a build that uses a Chaos Server and I have won many fights with
    less than say 30-40hp left. In these instances I believe I would have
    died had I been using any other weapon.
    That depends, did you hit them 5 times AFTER they initially hit you?

    Took me a few reads to realize what you were pointing out, but I think i've got you. If you're meaning like... when I have full health the regen doesnt add on so it doesnt matter at that point then yeh, I have definately been in fights where i've been hit first, traded blows and ended up winning with minimal HP left.

    Also btw, the server moveset is messed up. Just have to be cautious with the R2's in case of parries.

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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by befowler on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:01 pm

    If you use sanctus, replenishment, and ring of the sun princess you can get regen up to about 14 hp/sec, to about 840 hp total per replenishment cast. More if in theory you used 2 Sanctus (Sanctii?). This isn't terrible, although it would be a lot more viable if Sanctus had 100% damage block as I think it should, so you could minimize chip damage. Combined with cleaver etc it can make a difference though.

    I've also thought it would be cool if at Sunbo ranking +3 you got a minor regen aura for your allies, not yourself. Not enough to aid the gankers in any real way, but maybe enough to help those noob hosts a little when they run out of estus.


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    Re: Why is the hp recovery from the server and cleaver so damn low?

    Post by T-King-667 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:05 pm

    I decided to make a co-op pve replenishment build for me to try out when i get home to really see if i can get somthing viable out of it. http://tinyurl.com/94ue8oc i may change my server into a normal +15 since having higher faith dosent effect replenishment.

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