Who exactly is GOOD?

I stand by my personal opinion that the first flame is actually the sun and that not even the dragons existed "before" the flame.

I think this world goes through 3 ages cyclically. Its starts off as (or as I believe it to have started) The Age of Ancients, then transitions to the Age of Might, then ends at the Age of Man before starting up again. The soul games leads me to believe that this is the trend of the world. At least that is how it goes when the ones in charge end up screwing everything up for themselves!

Tzai wrote:I think this world goes through 3 ages cyclically. Its starts off as (or as I believe it to have started) The Age of Ancients, then transitions to the Age of Might, then ends at the Age of Man before starting up again. The soul games leads me to believe that this is the trend of the world. At least that is how it goes when the ones in charge end up screwing everything up for themselves!

DkS and DeS are not connected.

From has a certain theme to alot of there games in relation to 'the world'. Usually the upper crust look out for their benefits (usually by exploiting people) and the player trying to decide which to fight for.

cloudyeki wrote:From has a certain theme to alot of there games in relation to 'the world'. Usually the upper crust look out for their benefits (usually by exploiting people) and the player trying to decide which to fight for.

Ah, if that's the case then his observation might be valid. I wouldn't know, I play a man's console, not one of those sissy playstations. (Note that this is a joke and not an actual insult, please nobody turn this into a ragefest.)

Shkar wrote:

cloudyeki wrote:From has a certain theme to alot of there games in relation to 'the world'. Usually the upper crust look out for their benefits (usually by exploiting people) and the player trying to decide which to fight for.

Ah, if that's the case then his observation might be valid. I wouldn't know, I play a man's console, not one of those sissy playstations. (Note that this is a joke and not an actual insult, please nobody turn this into a ragefest.)

+1

Shkar get back to 42 rep!
The world of DkS accurately reflects aspects of the real world. Its hard to classify people into good and bad, much easier to use people who are desperate to keep power and people who want to overthrow them for power. Each side probably thinks they are the good guys, but are either of them really?

The Lord's are only trying to preserve and prolong their rule, or so it is to be believed. Anyone would do this. It doesn't make you evil. What feels so evil about it is that the 4th lord feels shunned and cast aside and later you find out that the possibility of that 4th lord being your great grandpappy could be very true. I still don't trust this theory but whatever. Dark Wraiths are by their very nature classified as evil along with their dieties and mentors. Kaethe is most likely fibbing or telling a tall tale. I think Gwyn is in fact on the good side of the fight and is the only one left doing so. There is a lot of evidence in Epicnamebro's lore series so just go visit that youtube channel and read up on lore. The dragon's weren't innocent. Just because they aren't mentioned as being overly oppressive beasts doesn't mean they weren't. I get the notion that they were very oppressive by the way the lords first stand to attention of the flames. Their animation tells of an oppressive hard existance before the flames.

The Hard Knox Zombie life!

There really isnt enough information about the dragons to make very concise theories. I've had discussions with Shkar, who believes nothing existed before the flame. Tolvo and I once discussed whether they were oppressive at all, or if humanity simply seized its power and attacked unprovoked (or used by seath to kill them). And then there is the idea they were oppresive rulers. There are just too many possibilities.

Shkar wrote:

Tzai wrote:I think this world goes through 3 ages cyclically. Its starts off as (or as I believe it to have started) The Age of Ancients, then transitions to the Age of Might, then ends at the Age of Man before starting up again. The soul games leads me to believe that this is the trend of the world. At least that is how it goes when the ones in charge end up screwing everything up for themselves!

DkS and DeS are not connected.

Oh I am well aware of Dks and Demon not being connected by what the developers said but if you look at it thematically can you really say that they are not in some way connected? I do believe that these games happen nowhere near each other but I can safely say they happened in the same realm.

DKS = The Age of might giving way to the Age of Man.

Demon = The Age of Man giving way to the Age of Ancients.

But for this to work you have to get the "bad" endings of each game which I find only concretes this even more.

DoughGuy wrote:There really isnt enough information about the dragons to make very concise theories. I've had discussions with Shkar, who believes nothing existed before the flame. Tolvo and I once discussed whether they were oppressive at all, or if humanity simply seized its power and attacked unprovoked (or used by seath to kill them). And then there is the idea they were oppresive rulers. There are just too many possibilities.

I disagree as usual.

Umbassa Zealot wrote:

DoughGuy wrote:There really isnt enough information about the dragons to make very concise theories. I've had discussions with Shkar, who believes nothing existed before the flame. Tolvo and I once discussed whether they were oppressive at all, or if humanity simply seized its power and attacked unprovoked (or used by seath to kill them). And then there is the idea they were oppresive rulers. There are just too many possibilities.

I disagree as usual.

You...disagree that there are a lot of possibilities?

Shkar wrote:

Umbassa Zealot wrote:

DoughGuy wrote:There really isnt enough information about the dragons to make very concise theories. I've had discussions with Shkar, who believes nothing existed before the flame. Tolvo and I once discussed whether they were oppressive at all, or if humanity simply seized its power and attacked unprovoked (or used by seath to kill them). And then there is the idea they were oppresive rulers. There are just too many possibilities.

I disagree as usual.

You...disagree that there are a lot of possibilities?

Yeah, what exactly do you disagree with?

Tzai wrote:

Shkar wrote:

Tzai wrote:I think this world goes through 3 ages cyclically. Its starts off as (or as I believe it to have started) The Age of Ancients, then transitions to the Age of Might, then ends at the Age of Man before starting up again. The soul games leads me to believe that this is the trend of the world. At least that is how it goes when the ones in charge end up screwing everything up for themselves!

DkS and DeS are not connected.

Oh I am well aware of Dks and Demon not being connected by what the developers said but if you look at it thematically can you really say that they are not in some way connected? I do believe that these games happen nowhere near each other but I can safely say they happened in the same realm.

DKS = The Age of might giving way to the Age of Man.

Demon = The Age of Man giving way to the Age of Ancients.

But for this to work you have to get the "bad" endings of each game which I find only concretes this even more.

As I said earlier, I play on Xbox, so I will never know what goes on in the wacky land of Demon's Souls.

Also, Doug, get on Skype. I have a minor theory I want to discuss!

Umbassa Zealot wrote:The Lord's are only trying to preserve and prolong their rule, or so it is to be believed. Anyone would do this. It doesn't make you evil. What feels so evil about it is that the 4th lord feels shunned and cast aside and later you find out that the possibility of that 4th lord being your great grandpappy could be very true. I still don't trust this theory but whatever. Dark Wraiths are by their very nature classified as evil along with their dieties and mentors. Kaethe is most likely fibbing or telling a tall tale. I think Gwyn is in fact on the good side of the fight and is the only one left doing so. There is a lot of evidence in Epicnamebro's lore series so just go visit that youtube channel and read up on lore. The dragon's weren't innocent. Just because they aren't mentioned as being overly oppressive beasts doesn't mean they weren't. I get the notion that they were very oppressive by the way the lords first stand to attention of the flames. Their animation tells of an oppressive hard existance before the flames.

The Hard Knox Zombie life!

While I do agree with the thought that Gwyn had only good intentions by sacrificing himself for fuel. I dont think the Dragons where oppressive at all. Their cinematic seemed filled with nothing. Absolutely nothing. No kind of movement, life, strife or conflict. More like peace imposed from emptiness or lack of opposites. I mean the main point of the first flame I think rings true no matter what is "Disparity". It existence causes opposites. Idk it seemed meaningless for them to try and oppress anything when the difference between life and death were not defined til the first flame.

(Of course Im taking the opening cinematic extremely literal in this sense.)

Damn I'm a slow typist...

I agree that the flame created opposites. Look at it this way. The way I personally see it is that the dragon's were worshipped by these primordial humanesque zombie creatures(the ones you see below). When the flame was discovered by the "zombies" it was realized that the dragons never need be feared again. Alas I could not find the images necessary to explain my points more in depth, and so I hope you understand. I will go ahead and say that when you watch the opening cutscenre, pay close attention to the camera angles and expressions of the dragons. compare this closely with the dialogue and motives or possible motives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlzFm315GG4

That's just what I think.

The way I see it, the things in the intro are just the first humans, starving and malnourished, barely scraping by under the dragon-dominated surface. The undead didn't come until later, after the Flame was utilized.

Those who perished before, dying true deaths, are collectively the singular Nito.

The Flame is both magic and metaphorical. It can be differentiated from regular fire. Just my opinion.

As far as who is good, no one. The God's seek to rule over humanity, while humans want to rule themselves, but the interesting thing about that is...Humans are just as crappy, if not worse! Just as the dragons were probably not so nice when Gwyn took it to them. We are presented with a terrible dichotomy to pick from, with neither being remotely "good". That's my .02 anyways.

Actually, we know that at least SOME of the countries are ruled by humans. For all we know, most of the countries are not ruled by the gods.

That said, even if they are, it doesn't look like they are doing that bad of a job. Hell, it's been a thousand years since Gwyn went to link the flame, and we have no idea how long it has been since undead took over Lordran. Anor Londo looks like the height of cultural power, and when we see it in its prime, even the city looks fairly good.

Shkar wrote:Actually, we know that at least SOME of the countries are ruled by humans. For all we know, most of the countries are not ruled by the gods.

Which ones?

That said, even if they are, it doesn't look like they are doing that bad of a job. Hell, it's been a thousand years since Gwyn went to link the flame, and we have no idea how long it has been since undead took over Lordran. Anor Londo looks like the height of cultural power, and when we see it in its prime, even the city looks fairly good.

Did humans even live in Anor Londo prior to the Gods leaving?

SEANB240 wrote:

Shkar wrote:Actually, we know that at least SOME of the countries are ruled by humans. For all we know, most of the countries are not ruled by the gods.

Which ones?

That said, even if they are, it doesn't look like they are doing that bad of a job. Hell, it's been a thousand years since Gwyn went to link the flame, and we have no idea how long it has been since undead took over Lordran. Anor Londo looks like the height of cultural power, and when we see it in its prime, even the city looks fairly good.

Did humans even live in Anor Londo prior to the Gods leaving?

I was considering the city below the actual area referred to as "Anor Londo" as the city of Anor Londo for that post.

And I am 99% certain that the Earl of Carim is human.

The earl is human but the gods live in Carim (I swear) so they probably have some power. Thororlind is ruled by the church which is led by allfather lloyd. Astora appears to be a typical medieval country and would have a king. Catarina has no god connection so is likely human ruled. The great swamp is technically human ruled. I reckon the east is too. Berenike was, as was balder.

New londo was also a human city, I think Oolacile was too (dont bring in any spoilers) and the "city under the lake" probably was to.

i'd like to point out that i think carim and vinhiem and maybe a few others are in fact independant city states and while still classified as countries are basically town or city sized. in the age of fire the gods have lots of power but thay dont really seem to care about ruling. in the age od dark men will have powers including one called the dark lord. at the end of the day its a bit like real life. whatever happenes you lose. one way or another you are led by someone more powerful than you. in every world of equils theres always someone who wants to elevate themselves above others. you can't win so just accept it. sorry for getting all pholosopical on y'all.

The whole point of the world of lordran is that there is no true morality, which is goodness without reason or cause. Everyone who portrays themselves as 'good' always have some sort of underlying reason to do so, even the sunbros which takes away from the good intentions themselves.. morality isn't really something applicable to lordran, it's just a fight for survival no matter where you go.

I suppose the closest thing you can get to good are the way of the white crew, they are a coop covenant but with no reward in any form and their good spirit is reflected in the way the covenant somehow avoids invasion a little though that can't ever be fully proven. But even they are smeared by a traitor within their ranks.

I know the popular opinion is that the gods are exploiting the player, but I disagree and think it was particularly the gods. Gwyndolin was keeping Anor Londo light, but I don't think he had serious ulterior motives other than trying to keep his father's illusion going. Nothing sinister. I don't think he was in cahoots with the serpents, I think the serpents are the main manipulators. And they aren't necessarily evil, simply using you to further their goals.