Grant does 1000 Damage in a backstab...wtf?

Ok, maybe I'm confused as to how Backstab mechanics work, but I've been testing this in the forest, I've used a Dragon Tooth +5 for a backstab (no hornet ring) and it does about 800 damage on the big swing.

Then I tried Grant +5 and it does over 1000 damage on the big swing.

Now with normal attacks Dragon Tooth does more damage but Grant does more damage for a backstab, does a backstab calculate purely on AR or what?

I think it has to do with the split damage since you need to invest heavily know dex in order for a reg rapier to beat a chaos one, it's weird but I guess the elemental and reg damage doesn't care about your opponent's defence.

When the damage is multiplied so much, the defense doesn't matter that much anymore. At least that is how it has always seemed to me.

one of those clubs adds on some extra damage for no apparent reason too. i can't remember which one it was tho, but it looks like its a giant version of bam bams stick or something from the flinstones.

those big weapons do mean bs damage.

Backstabs and ripostes ignore all defense, so split damage isn't an issue.

I don't know much about the split dmg of the Grant but ya I thought BS dmg went off the AR of the weapon...with some oddities like rapiers and the great club that just do more dmg that you would think!!

Rifter that would be the great club it hits like a tank...even tho the demon GA has a higher AR withh 50 str the great club will do higher criticals...I think its the highest in the game pretty much!!

I know with the divine dmg of the velka rapier it hits hard crits maybe the divine dmg of the Grant is the same?

ithunktwice wrote:Backstabs and ripostes ignore all defense, so split damage isn't an issue.

I'm pretty sure its a multiplier, not that it ignores defense.

What I mean is that, while a weapon may do more damage (elemental vs +15), the higher ar will still do more bs and riposte damage.

Think about it this way, (i'm not a bs mechanic genious or anything buuut) lets say you have a +15 weapon, that weapon has some add on damage from your stats (i can not confirm that if that add on damage is multiplied or just added on) well usually when you bs someone the damage out weighs their defense by a lot. So if you have a weapon with a total AR of 750 compared to one with 600 or somehting that 750 even though it's split damage would end up doing more damage. Also it is possible for bs damage to ignore defense. I think more tetsing needs to be done on properties of bsing lol.

@thunk Not technically, assuming my understanding is correct, but generally yes. Defense is still factored, so at comparable ars single damage is still better than split, but elemental weapons generally have significantly higher ars than regular, so its rare (at 120) for a single ar to get close enough to out perform elemental.

For example, I do believe that at 53 dex the regular rapier will out damage the lightning rapier for bs damage. The ar here is relatively small, so its easier for regular to get close enough. Another example would be the lightning zweihander at 721 compared to a crystal dgm at 688. The crystal dgm, in my experience, hit harder. A regular dgm at 636 won't, but the crystal version is close enough to the lightning zweihander illustrate my point.

I have done extensive testing with the rapier in particular and I know for a fact the AR you see on your stats does not translate to the actual dmg you will deal on a critical!

I will use a 40 str 40 dex build as an example since that's what I have used to test!

AR +15 rapier - 352
AR +5 chaos - 411

Even tho the AR is higher on the chaos still...the actual crit dmg output is identical...I have proof of this in video form of 2 parry/rpstl's with each rapier against the same guy same armor....the end dmg is within 10 +/-!!!

That being said the highest your crits you will get with this build is crystal...the AR is 381 still lower than the chaos but it will actually output slightly higher than both chaos and +15...and you can buff crystal so it will always be the best!!!

I'd like to see the video link if possible? its always good to see multiple confirmations and I can link it as proof if the topic comes up later.

Yes no problem at all forum!!

I am against the hornets ring but this guy summoned me twice in the burg both times to him hornets BSing a guy...I out played him both times and lost to hornets lag stabs...I was pissed so I put the hornets on and got him twice in a row with parrys from each rapier!

I will edit and do a post with it chaos +5 vs reg +15 at 40 str/dex

Thanks, its much appreciated. Its always so much easier to avoid arguements when I can link a video.

I use the hornets ring as an anti-gank tool. i menu swap between the beiber ring and hornets ring in ganks, keeps them off guard. if they pick up on my gear swap pattern, I back off like i'm switching gear, but stay out of the menu and piviot bs them as they get close.

Its usually with the dgm or large club though, I don't have the knack for fencing. I just get murdered when I try. Funny really, because rapiers (and spears) are the weapons I'd be the most likely to want nerfed. I'm not sure I actually would nerf them, but as far as competition goes, not having 1 of the 2 on ones self at all times is rather foolish unless one has twop or wog to interrupt the roll poking.

Different discussion for a different time though.

No problem at all and yes I agree its pretty hard to argue with a video...now I am really curious myself exactly what the diff was I just remember it was SUPER close!!

Lol ya from all my forest hunting I'm a ring swapper also...if a fight turns ugly I like to get a cancelled bs when I get the ani...then I can menu swap hornets and counter bs his next pivot attemp lol!!

I always have a range weapon and a close striking weapon ie scythe/bss or halbert/rapier something like that...not much of a spear guy sometimes ill use the winged spear with my bss on my leo build tho!

Ill upload to youtube tonight and post in the AM!

I have a spreadsheet of 18 different weapons (sampled from all different classes) and their R1 and BS damage (done with +15 and all elementals against 3 different armor sets and no armor).

cool. can we see? how detailed is it? 40/40 or what?

Yep, 40/40.

http://www.mediafire.com/?99mrdwflau16l7e

Check it out. Yesu and I spent a couple hours testing.