Backstab damage level...

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    Does BS damage need to be lowered

    [ 17 ]
    50% [50%] 
    [ 11 ]
    32% [32%] 
    [ 6 ]
    18% [18%] 

    Total Votes: 34
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    Backstab damage level...

    Post by eneq on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:37 am

    I have nothing against BS as a technique, at the time however I feel its way overpowered when it can take almost all my health in one blow when I have high Vit as well as heavy armor.

    But it might just be me, or this question has been asked and answered ten thousand times in which case I apologize.

    In some way this also relates to parry/riposte but at the level I am in the game it feels more like a proper skill, although any damage that can decide the outcome of a duel in one hit is somewhat overpowered imo...
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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Serious_Much on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:39 am

    I cant vote, if anything should be changed i just think damage for larger weapons on the backstabs should be lowered (which would make sense) while smaller should stay the same. However it works fine as it is and larger weapons don't really have enough perks to balance against faster weapons so i'd leave it.

    I have no problem with a lot of damage being dealt to me for something that's (usually) my fault.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Liff Daddy on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:49 am

    The critical hit damages are fine in my opinion.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by DxV04 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:31 pm

    No,

    how else do you expect to get out of a 3 v 1 situation? You already need luck.hehe
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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by lextune on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:31 am

    DxV04 wrote:No,

    how else do you expect to get out of a 3 v 1 situation? You already need luck.hehe

    A properly timed Fire Tempest works very very well for me. winking

    On my high dex DW I wipe out 2 and 3 on 1's all time time with it. My low dex DW in Anor requires a lot more cunning due to the long casting time, but proper use of the environment makes it quite possible.

    ....just saying....

    And yes, backstabs need to be nerfed big time. 30% of the damn community would not know what to do with themselves and it would be awesome, lol.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by DxV04 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:37 am

    lextune wrote:
    DxV04 wrote:No,

    how else do you expect to get out of a 3 v 1 situation? You already need luck.hehe

    A properly timed Fire Tempest works very very well for me. winking

    On my high dex DW I wipe out 2 and 3 on 1's all time time with it. My low dex DW in Anor requires a lot more cunning due to the long casting time, but proper use of the environment makes it quite possible.

    ....just saying....

    And yes, backstabs need to be nerfed big time. 30% of the damn community would not know what to do with themselves and it would be awesome, lol.

    not everyone uses fire tempest and not everyone has a fully upgraded pyro hand. I am sure you don't use it every single time.

    In contrast, you don't need any special equipment to BS. Its there as an option IMO
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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:34 pm

    I put yes. But, not entirely. Some of the hidden BS bonuses need to be nerfed. But, the ones without the hidden bonus have a good AR, IMO.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Wade_Wilson on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:34 pm

    Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Backstabs are the most godforsaken ******** thing in Dark Souls. Im sorry, I really didnt want to fight you anyway, just go ahead and backstab me from the front using your cheap pivot ***, with your *** lightning weapon and hornet ring, and insta kill me, you *** tryhard ****.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Tolvo on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:37 pm

    Though I do think there needs to be some balancing done, such as Serious' mention of weapons that have a large enough damage output having a lowered critical, on their own I don't think Backstabs should be lowered. Sure people could fish for them and there is the dreaded lagstab, but fishing can be countered and lagstabs are just a connection issue. Other than that I do think they are in fine condition. Maybe a bit of tweaking, but I don't think lowering the damage is the way to go about it for every single weapon.
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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:37 pm

    DxV04 wrote:No,

    how else do you expect to get out of a 3 v 1 situation? You already need luck.hehe

    well some nice Force miracle spamming can knock them down so i can book to a tight area where i cannot be surrounded

    saved my *** a lot on 3v1

    anyway i think backstab damage should be decreased just a little bit

    just a long as IT DOESN'T TAKE DOWN 3/4 OF MY HP is alright by me

    since there is a lot of lagstabers out there that just SPAM backstabs like they have nothing else in their disposal

    is quite annoying


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by DxV04 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:40 pm

    Dead Heat!!! pretty cool!! One thing I am sure of that if they do anything to it we would all adjust quite well I think . big grin
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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:17 pm

    To get backstabs that do that massive of damage you need to specialize.


    For example: Lightning claymore a pretty common weapon deals about 700-800 damage for a backstab on the average enemy. So we can assume that it deals about 600 to a character with heavy armor. Now a lightning bandits knife, which is nearly useless for normal combat can deal about 800-900 to a normal enemy so we can assume it will do about 700 to a heavy armored opponent.

    Using the better of the weapons for backstabs you give up the ability to excel at normal combat, but to excel at backstabbing. Now at this point you are going to want to specialize at doing backstabs. So you will use the hornet ring, giving you backstabs that deal about 1600 damage.

    Now being a build built towards backstabs you'll want to be fast. So the DWGR is almost necessary. Meaning at 40 end (assuming a sl 120 build) you can equip about 35lbs of equipment. Thats enough for the knife, a shield, and a decent set of medium armor. With this you can max out at about 40 poise.

    So to deal this insane backstabs you're talking about you have to give up a lot of stats, such as defense, poise and normal combat damage. With this said I voted no, if you take away the backstab damage you defeat an entire style of play, whether you like it or not.

    With THAT said I know there are ways to push the boundries of the system and create a build that deals OHKO's and is not this specialized. But that is an entirely different issue.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:48 pm

    ErrJon6661 wrote:To get backstabs that do that massive of damage you need to specialize.


    For example: Lightning claymore a pretty common weapon deals about 700-800 damage for a backstab on the average enemy. So we can assume that it deals about 600 to a character with heavy armor. Now a lightning bandits knife, which is nearly useless for normal combat can deal about 800-900 to a normal enemy so we can assume it will do about 700 to a heavy armored opponent.

    Using the better of the weapons for backstabs you give up the ability to excel at normal combat, but to excel at backstabbing. Now at this point you are going to want to specialize at doing backstabs. So you will use the hornet ring, giving you backstabs that deal about 1600 damage.

    Now being a build built towards backstabs you'll want to be fast. So the DWGR is almost necessary. Meaning at 40 end (assuming a sl 120 build) you can equip about 35lbs of equipment. Thats enough for the knife, a shield, and a decent set of medium armor. With this you can max out at about 40 poise.

    So to deal this insane backstabs you're talking about you have to give up a lot of stats, such as defense, poise and normal combat damage. With this said I voted no, if you take away the backstab damage you defeat an entire style of play, whether you like it or not.

    With THAT said I know there are ways to push the boundries of the system and create a build that deals OHKO's and is not this specialized. But that is an entirely different issue.


    you ever experienced lag?

    its almost impossible evading a backstab when there a horrendous lag in the match

    its completely unfair getting killed by something you cannot dodge due to lag in ONE SHOT

    thats just my take i have to deal with lag a *** **** TON OF TIMES (forgive my language)

    and im sick and tired of backstabers seriously 3/5 of all the matches i've been in the guy was just fishing for lagstabs

    and most got one due to lag

    so if you ask me,it need to be decreased or they have to find a way to make lag less of a problem WHICH WILL probably never happen

    you may say "i've never had problems with it before" but i did and i do on a daily basis and im sick of it honestly


    i know the counter backstab trick buuuuut the guy teleports from 10 feet away and backstabs me most of the times anyway


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:55 pm

    I get lag, not as bad as some but I have it. And I understand where a lot of people are coming from with internet connections that are not ideal. My point is the problem isn't backstabs themselves, its other conditions in the game. If they fixed those conditions many other issues would be fixed, backstab damage being one of them. We're not addressing the main problem we're addressing the symptoms of it. Many people won't agree with me on this and thats fine. This is my opinion.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:59 pm

    ErrJon6661 wrote:I get lag, not as bad as some but I have it. And I understand where a lot of people are coming from with internet connections that are not ideal. My point is the problem isn't backstabs themselves, its other conditions in the game. If they fixed those conditions many other issues would be fixed, backstab damage being one of them. We're not addressing the main problem we're addressing the symptoms of it. Many people won't agree with me on this and thats fine. This is my opinion.

    well at least you're not bashing...Are you?

    anyways i respect your opinion so im not gonna bash you,neither will i bash anyone else if they don't bash me

    in my opinion backstabs need to be have their damage decreased

    that is all



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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:04 pm

    I'm not bashing you at all Scudman.

    I wouldn't mind a damage decrease on large weapons, its ridiculous that the BKGA can out backstab most of my dex builds weapons. But the small weapons almost need that damage to be worth using. You take away the backstab damage you take away the draw of weapons like rapiers and bandit's knives.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:10 pm

    i know im just joking


    well here's an idea for the dagger and rapiers

    Rapiers slow the guy's movement and the speed of his attacks making you able to dodge or have an easier time parrying

    and daggers could have higher bleed rate and they could have the ability to ignore the guy's armor and defense

    meaning if the guy had 400 physical resistance he would take damage as if his defense was 150-200 like he weren't wearing anything at all

    that would balance out the small weapons for me at least


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:16 pm

    Hahaha, I never know. You can't exactly read people online.


    That would be wonderful, some kind of bonus for dex users. Because lets face it. You've got the katana's and the silver knight swords. Maybe a few spears but other than that its all backstabs for us.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:20 pm

    thats why i think my little idea would give dex users an edge and not have to backstab 90% of the time


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:23 pm

    Even just faster attacking, or give more weapons bleed. All the curved swords had bleed in demon's. What happened to that? Maybe they should make dex weapons get greater attack boosts from enchantments.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by Scudman_Slayer on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:31 pm

    bleed wasn't such an OP thing on demon's souls

    it was a permanent stat effect that could only be removed with an item and the damage it always caused wasn't even noticeable in the first place actually i think it was 8 hp damage each 10 seconds so yeah

    now its 50% of your health instantly

    i don't think that would be a good idea specially because some people would get lightning versions of them to destroy people with 4 strikes (the 4 attacks taking out 50% of the guy's health already and the bleed finishing him off)


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:37 pm

    Most bleeding weapons do 30%, its a lot still but not quite 50%.

    I used a lightning uchi for a while and my experience was this: To people who are in light armor and are not skilled, you will destroy them in 4-6 hits. People wearing heavy armor take 7-10 hits. I would never get more than 1 bleed on someone. Most people have extremely high bleed resistance. Now this is if you spam r1. Anyone who spams r1 against someone who knows how to parry you're getting parried and riposted. So in higher level pvp (90-120) you have to use a dash around and attack technique. Getting 1-2 hits off every 10-20 seconds. At this point you're not going to get the bleed effect on anyone. And if you get close there is a way to take the rest of the bleed w/o taking the bleed damage. At lower levels it rapes, but at normal pvp levels not so much.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by eneq on Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:23 pm

    ErrJon6661 wrote:I'm not bashing you at all Scudman.

    I wouldn't mind a damage decrease on large weapons, its ridiculous that the BKGA can out backstab most of my dex builds weapons. But the small weapons almost need that damage to be worth using. You take away the backstab damage you take away the draw of weapons like rapiers and bandit's knives.

    Not quite, a faster weapons means more hits per stamina and thus more benefits from any weapon buffs you have.
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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by ErrJon6661 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:55 pm

    That is true, but think of it this way.

    Lets say that the Falcion hits 2 times for every 1 hit on a zwie. IT takes a LOT of hits with the falcion to get stunlock where as the zwie takes 1 hit, maybe two. This is why dex builds fish for backstabs. You can roll around and chip at the opponents health, dealing between 100-400 damage per hit (using a weapon buff, counting for resistance and assuming they may or may not have a shield) and hoping that you don't make a mistake and eat their zwie to death. Or you can fish for a bs, roll/pivot bs and not worry about that. The match takes less time and you are more likely to win when compared the the aforementioned strategy. So you cannot really take advantage of that faster swing time. Considering that most people I come up against in pvp are decked out in heavy armor this is the strategy I often chose because with lag it is the best option for me. I cant chance taking a hit from a large weapon eating half my health if I want to win.


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    Re: Backstab damage level...

    Post by eneq on Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:11 pm

    Understand that fully its a risk with fast weapons since they cant go for the stunlock (which wouldnt make sense anyway) they are meant for a faster type of play ie. in and out but that said the short ones like the Bandit Knife etc lack the range for it.

    But it stands to logic as well that you dont bring a knife to a swords fight so I fully understand the logic behind fishing for BS. As an example in the olden days where the knights were the opwerhouses it required special armor piercing weapons to bring them down sucessfully and a simple dagger would not be enough (and people complain about flipping tanks)...

    Aaaaaaanyway no point in degenerating to a Poise hating thread like the others happy

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