UG weapons are broken for PvP.

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    UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Ghadis_God on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:11 am

    I think most of you would agree that the proper reaction to seeing someone charge you in heavy armor while wielding an enormous hammer would be to **** your pants in fear and run the other way as fast as you can. But this isn't really the case in DkS, in fact the enormous weapons are some of the least used in legitimate PvP. (That is, without bs or parry fishing). In fact, I don't think I've ever fought a player who tried to fight me head on with a great hammer or axe. Everyone I've seen with these weapons has been fishing for bs or trying to maximize parry damage. And with good reason. Though any weapon can be used effectively by a player with skill and experience, the great hammers and axes, to put it bluntly, suck.
    It's not their speed, which is not only appropriate to their size but also proportional to the speed of the other weapons in the game versus their weight. It's not the damage, which is also appropriate considering the increasing returns on AR and the speed of such weapons. In fact, the speed/damage/range ratio, in other words, balance*, is not significantly different from that of other weapon classes. Katanas are very fast but have mediocre damage and range. GS are well balanced between speed, range, and damage, Spears have incredible range and decent speed, but low damage, and UG hammers/axes have high damage, above-average range, but low speed. Judging by this balance approximation, UG weapons should at least be viable in PvP. From here on out, I'll count out UGS**. They're the most viable of the UG's and see decently frequent use, especially in past PvP. I don't personally consider them broken, and one can use them to great effect even in high-skill contests. This thread really focuses on the axes and hammers. After a large amount of thought on why these weapons are so difficult to utilize, and how they could be improved, one thing came to me. Poise break value.
    Rather than changing it to a debatable number, I think it should be eliminated for these weapons. In other words, they should stun every time they hit, regardless of opponent's armor. A slow weapon may be one thing, but if the opponent can slap on Giants, even Giants without the helm, and be able to take a hit to stunlock the UG user before he can get in a second swing, the weapons are nearly unviable. The fact that their movesets are easy to parry and bs can be overcome by skilled play and fighting unlocked in the case of bs, but the ease of use of heavy armor and the existence of the 76 breakpoint means that UG weapons lose their one decisive edge. Add in the DWGR to the opponent's repertoire, and UGW users are outclassed in dodging ability while being forced to wear the heaviest of armor to break even with the breakpoint their opponents are sure to be using. The point of instant stun is not to make them able to stunlock the opponent to death. With the speed of these weapons, one can roll out of their stun without even trying. The idea is that by being able to interrupt their opponent's attacks, trading hits while using a UGW is a definite advantage, and makes the use of these weapons about timing and interrupting an opponent's pattern. This should be coupled with a DeS style system in which the user of the UGW gets a poise boost while attacking. This way, the options of skilled players facing these weapons are greatly reduced, and the UGW user actually has some control over the fight rather than waiting for a huge opening while evading the enemy's attacks.
    Keep in mind this is just my humble suggestion, and feel free to discuss ant point out flaws in my argument, as there are a lot of people here who know a lot more about PvP and the use of various weapons than I do.

    *This is an absolute generaization. Many more things contribute to real balance, like weight and stamina cost. I refer to the general parameters of each class, and am aware that individual weapons vary, though I would argue that moveset is just another application of damage, speed, and range.
    **As well as the BKGA. I would consider its balance to be broken, as the power and range are similar to a weapon of its class (both very high) while it's speed is two classes faster. (around GS). It does not need to be buffed, if anything it should be nerfed but that's a different discussion.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:36 am

    In fact, the UGS are the most viable of the Str weapons, specially the Zweihander. They can stun lock, and have the most range. Great hammers and greataxes (not counting the BKGA), are slower than the UGS. Two words make overall Str weapons generally non viable for PvP: Roll backstab. Also, even though AR is very high, damage values from R1s range from 400~500. That's not enough considering their low DPS. A BSS R2 deals almost the the same damage. Also their ridiculous weight makes them rare at SL 120, due to the large investment in endurance. I love Str weapons, but they are frustrating to use in the roll backstab world.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Ghadis_God on Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:51 am

    The DGA actually has a pretty nice 1hR2 when unlocked, which solves a lot of backstab problems. I just don't feel like landing a hit does enough to deter an opponent from continuing their attack.

    I also stated in my post that I felt like the UGS were the most viable. I'm not too shabby with the DGM myself, at least 1v1. They can dead angle, deter bs with the unlocked swing, they have a good rolling poke, etc. The 76 breakpoint is just fine for them, it's really the hammers/axes I feel are broken.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Carphil on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:02 am

    Thats why I bring much poise, looks, and a giant greataxe to anor londo rotating bridge, and teach those backstabbers a lesson. http://tinyurl.com/bwtgpkc

    When dueling against japanese and some better "public" than burg, such as demons ruins, moonlight forest and sens rooftop, I use a mixed setup, but normally with light roll and no shield, only bare hands to parry or medium roll and more equipment.

    http://tinyurl.com/czv6r7c - light roll version

    http://tinyurl.com/c6f4t69 - medium roll version


    Last edited by Carphil on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:02 am

    Ahhhh ok, I misread. True, true. I once fought with a DGA build that I have. I got roll bs to death. Every f***** time I did an attack I got roll bsed. You know that I almost cried.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Ghadis_God on Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:18 am

    That's ridiculous Wyrm, I kind of wish you could attack cancel like in fighting games to deal with that ****.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by RailBladerX on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:40 am

    the real reason the great Hammers/Axes are not viable for pvp is because of their range.


    my demon great axe one hitter quitter build was great, and players being able to out poise me was not the issue.. it was simply just being able to hit them. haveing zero hit box on a weapon with a 2 foot long edge.. baffles me.


    course i tell everyone "if you want to use an axe, and want to pvp, use the Dark knight great axe. since its the only viable axe in pvp."
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Ghadis_God on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:50 am

    Ugh, don't promote the use of that weapon, we all see way too much of it as is.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Gaxe on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:56 am

    Well honestly all the "huge" weapons aren't generally good because they have sucky as *** range. They look like they could hit someone far but that is bull ****. I can sit there and swing at someone that's 2 feet in front of me with a Demon Great Machete and not hit them.

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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by RailBladerX on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:37 am

    Gaxe wrote:Well honestly all the "huge" weapons aren't generally good because they have sucky as *** range. They look like they could hit someone far but that is bull ****. I can sit there and swing at someone that's 2 feet in front of me with a Demon Great Machete and not hit them.


    my point exactly... they fix the range/hitbox on the big axes/hammers and they will be viable, and hopefully (true'ly hope'n) it gets fixed in the DLC/PC edition.
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Gaxe on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:42 am

    RailBladerX wrote:
    Gaxe wrote:Well honestly all the "huge" weapons aren't generally good because they have sucky as *** range. They look like they could hit someone far but that is bull ****. I can sit there and swing at someone that's 2 feet in front of me with a Demon Great Machete and not hit them.


    my point exactly... they fix the range/hitbox on the big axes/hammers and they will be viable, and hopefully (true'ly hope'n) it gets fixed in the DLC/PC edition.

    Here's my one true dream for the dlc/patch. That they'll fix those DAMN GLITCHES lol and of course balance weapons more.
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by bloodpixel on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:50 am

    You know broken means extremely overpowered, right? It's called broken because it "breaks" the game.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:56 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:That's ridiculous Wyrm, I kind of wish you could attack cancel like in fighting games to deal with that ****.

    Well of course there is BS cancel, though with a slow weapon that's fairly hard to do.
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by RANT on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:03 am

    imo great hammers are very viable, all you gotta do is lock off right before you do the ground pound and aim it behind you which will cause the guy thats trying to roll bs you to get a great hammer in the face, of course you cant just keep doing that, try to change it up to keep your opponent guessing since ppvp in dark souls is all about who backstabs first which i think its so lame. same with the great axes, you really havve to pick you shots but when you connect usually is for a counter which should do about 600 to 700 damage without a buff!(with DGA) the rolling attack are pretty good for counter backstabs, also i spear helps a lot to keep your opponent away from you, i littlle faith is awesome too, force will be your best friend if you know how to use it, its perfect to counter backstabs, as soon as the roll towards you just use force ad they will stagger and get oppened for a bs, what i do is roll towards them, use force and bs. this is gonna take a while ans anyone can do this but the thing is that people are lazy and would just rather go with what's easier which is dex weapons.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by omega Elf on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:45 am

    try playing with smoughs hammer lol, i did its f***ing useless, especially the r2 its a joke, i got roll bs every damn time so i switched to my katanna (yawn)
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:46 am

    I sometimes kill people while fat rolling as Smough, with the R2. You'd be surprised how weapons that aren't practical, can still be used for great fun.
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Joichiro on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:09 pm

    axes have poor hitbox? i don't get it, yesterday with my GA i kill lots and lots, just using the roll attack animation and for those havel flipping just 2h R2 and smash them to the ground.

    however, i didn't tried the great hammers the only thing i know it's that the roll attack are hard to parry
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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:39 pm

    I'm inclined to agree with op. I use the large club well because of its 1hr2, but otherwise I just get murdered/murder whenever either player is using a great hammer or axe, every other weapon can roll in, attack and still get a shield up or dodge out before I finish my swing.

    The majority of my successful hits, even with ugs, are trades. The next highest is roll r1 to interrupt an attack I saw coming. I am forced to bait constantly or I'll never hit, it also means having 2k hp is almost mandatory.

    It might just be me, but unlike my other builds, my ug weapon users must have 53+ poise, 350+ defense and 2k+hp because chances are, a good player will go through over 500 of my hp, unbuffed, for each hit I land. (for 400-600 ish damage)


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by RANT on Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:36 pm

    Tolvo wrote:I sometimes kill people while fat rolling as Smough, with the R2. You'd be surprised how weapons that aren't practical, can still be used for great fun.

    Yes! T hat parry with our smough display was awesome but then he just kept fishing for backstabs, lame.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Carphil on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:46 pm

    Its a matter of training. If you're a dex player all your life, and go PVP with a Great axe only for 1 hour, of course you will have a hard time! You always must learn how to play with different weapons.

    "The weapon sucks!"

    Have you tried in real PVP before? or you just pressed R1 near the bonfire and said that sucks because its too slow? The swing speed of Demons and Dragon weapons are actually very fast considering their wheight! At least it does not exists a ring that remove STR weapons speed penalty.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:58 pm

    I use str weapons extensively, op claims to have as well. The argument wasn't that they suck, its that any advantage they have is fairly easily overcome by faster weapons a great deal of the time, where the opposite isn't true nearly as often.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Ghadis_God on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:13 pm

    I admit to carphil that I don't have massive, in-depth experience with the axes and hammers. I have a good amount of experience with both the DGM and Great Club, and used the Grant for a while while hunting. (I actually have the most experience with Greatswords and spears). I never said that no one can be good with them. But the community speaks for itself. They flock to weapons and items that are high-tier or even OP and ignore those that are poorly balanced. Katanas? Check. Straight Swords? Not super common but the BSS has general popularity on these forums and many people buff them. Greatswords? Very common. Spears and rapiers have their dedicated users, I especially see spears all the time. Hand axes/hammers? Almost never, and I would argue these are another severely underpowered class of weapon. Polearms are also common weapons between the great scythe, G. Halberd, and a few others I see often. Daggers are also never seen aside from bs use, and they are generally underpowered for direct fighting. Whips are hard to use with little benefit, another rare weapon. My thread never claimed that UG weapons were impossible to use. I simply described a way to rebalance them with unique attributes that make them worth the low speed and punishability.


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:49 pm

    i'd love for hammers work better, i love the pickaxe hammer... the only one i like using for pvp is the giant black smiths hammer since it has more range than other hammers and high lightning damage...


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by Carphil on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:06 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:I admit to carphil that I don't have massive, in-depth experience with the axes and hammers. I have a good amount of experience with both the DGM and Great Club, and used the Grant for a while while hunting. (I actually have the most experience with Greatswords and spears). I never said that no one can be good with them. But the community speaks for itself. They flock to weapons and items that are high-tier or even OP and ignore those that are poorly balanced. Katanas? Check. Straight Swords? Not super common but the BSS has general popularity on these forums and many people buff them. Greatswords? Very common. Spears and rapiers have their dedicated users, I especially see spears all the time. Hand axes/hammers? Almost never, and I would argue these are another severely underpowered class of weapon. Polearms are also common weapons between the great scythe, G. Halberd, and a few others I see often. Daggers are also never seen aside from bs use, and they are generally underpowered for direct fighting. Whips are hard to use with little benefit, another rare weapon. My thread never claimed that UG weapons were impossible to use. I simply described a way to rebalance them with unique attributes that make them worth the low speed and punishability.

    I understand your point, but in my opinion, the only problem is that those weapons are not underpowered. They are pretty good, but as you said, the community makes them rare. In Anor Londo rotating bridge, where you can't backstab for example, the Heavy weapons represents much more danger. Most Dex players, when see a Heavy wpn user spawn, instantly think about parrying them, and if fails, they will fish for backstab


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    Re: UG weapons are broken for PvP.

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:18 pm

    Playing locked off and changing your attack angle during the attack is the best method, IMO. When you pull out an uber-great-axe-sword-hammer, many people automatically think free BS. Well, start your attack, unlock, direct it toward where they are going and flatten them. Generally 2H roll R1 is the best move for the hammers (Great Club and Large Club especially). It is unparryable (or insanely difficult to parry), has a large hit box, and is really powerful. You just have to know when to attack.


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