Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by roanispe on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:48 am

    What you need to do is be observant. Notice how they'll use the spear; often you'll get the kind that will do weak pokes, and just try for a single hit no matter what. Others will do two thrust, and the smallest minority will just mash their weak attack till you leave the range. Find out how they'll go about it. It is a much different game from facing another type of weapon, as you'll need to find their characteristic breath. Any spear-user has one, trust me on that. So once you figure out how they go about whittling you (the hard part), you need to make a plan which is actually easy.

    For the single pokers, you know that they'll always end up not making that second attack. This is a grace period to get close, and wait till you can score hits of your own. For the dual poker, not only can you do something similar, you can take advantage of the fact if you know when they are going to attack, you can go for an advanced roll backstab. This doesn't mean it is harder, but you start the roll in advance so you land close enough behind that you can reposition yourself for the stab during the attack animation. While theoretically you can do it for the single-stabber, it is harder to pull off. The attack spammer can be frightening, with a seaming inability to be parried, and deadly ability to break guards, I suggest using all the tactics above, and to watch Matyrbrigade's video for parrying faster weapons. You'll know when you get your grace period as they'll nearly empty their stamina bar every chance they get; pay attention to count the attacks. Not only that, make sure to keep the pressure on them after for should they try to block you'll often break a guard. If you aren't on top of that sort of stuff, then you'll miss an opportunity to do massive damage. If you are using a larger weapon, don't forget that your jump attack is deadly! Just be cautious when using it, as backstab, even from a spear, will hurt.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:55 am

    Lol, I generally refuse to use thrust weapons. Maybe its my connection, but by the time I see the attack start, its already hit me, and I don't want to put other people through that. At least if I catch them with my dgm and stunlock them to death, I know they screwed up, instead of wondering if I'd even moved yet on their screen when they took damage.


    I've fought 1 good BKGA user. I lost 4 times, only hit him once.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Ecko on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:10 am

    Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point of 59 strength on that first build? And especially when using a dex weapon. :/
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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Rynn on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:39 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Lol, I generally refuse to use thrust weapons. Maybe its my connection, but by the time I see the attack start, its already hit me, and I don't want to put other people through that. At least if I catch them with my dgm and stunlock them to death, I know they screwed up, instead of wondering if I'd even moved yet on their screen when they took damage.


    I've fought 1 good BKGA user. I lost 4 times, only hit him once.
    I have this problem with a lot of weapons. I've got this complex now where when my opponent attacks, no matter how far away I am, I just hit the roll button. Often my opponent will have missed me by an entire weapon distance or more, and the hit will still connect.
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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:30 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Lol, I generally refuse to use thrust weapons. Maybe its my connection, but by the time I see the attack start, its already hit me, and I don't want to put other people through that. At least if I catch them with my dgm and stunlock them to death, I know they screwed up, instead of wondering if I'd even moved yet on their screen when they took damage.


    I've fought 1 good BKGA user. I lost 4 times, only hit him once.

    Completely agree. I wont even offhand a spear for this reason. And when that's happening to me, I'm at a total loss as to what to do. The first hit connects before I see it, then as I'm attempting to do something the second hit connects and a lot of times I'll get poke stunned. God forbid they're using the Leo Ring. Easymode. It's the only weapon that can leave me feeling completely helpless.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by ZikoLogiKa NL on Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:47 am

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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by johnplaysdarksouls on Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:05 pm

    I fought a glitcher once, DSS + SLB + turtling. that was horrible
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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:11 pm

    Hahaha, the WP and DSS happen to be two of my favorite weapons, and I buff the WP to fight gankers, a job which it does extremely well. However, I don't feel the WP is that overpowered because its scaling requires a 40/40 build to match other katanas' damage outputs. Killing a ganker in three hits however, and racking up 2.6 K damage on a phantom who was being constantly healed while I was attacking, is an invaluble asset in the forest.

    The DSS too, requires a huge amount of skill to use properly as a primary weapon, the people who kill you with it are probably dedicated users of this powerful weapon. Turtling is actually the weakest use of the DSS, and real spear users rarely turtle. Besides, I can't call it overpowered when a Pike+15 has better range and damage (due to split AR) at 40/40 than the DSS even at 40/40/40 in all its scaling stats. Plus you can buff the Pike on top of that. The only advantage the DSS has is that lightning damage hits through shields for negligible damage. Big whoop.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:14 pm

    Does it really require a "huge" amount of skill...?


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:37 pm

    DamageCK wrote:Does it really require a "huge" amount of skill...?
    Maybe I'm exaggerating. But the point is that people who win with the DSS aren't noobs or exploiting something that's OP. I'm not great with it either, I'm not trying to toot my own horn if that's the impression you're getting, but using a spear well takes a lot of experience and skill.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:47 pm

    Spears are the most easy to use weapons. Just roll and poke, roll and poke, poke poke.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:53 pm

    In theory they're the easiest to use weapons, but in practice you need experience to actually beat someone with a spear as a primary because just roll and poke will get you roll bs'd or just plain stunlocked, as spears are easy to roll through and punish.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:27 pm

    I'm with wyrm. Just using a spear jumps my winrate significantly. All I have to do is refrain from boxing myself in and rollpoke til I win. I have used spears, I dispute the claim that spears take much skill. Even a mediocre player is lethal with a spear, where good players become neigh untouchable.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by DamageCK on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:33 pm

    Exactly. Back in the thread I made asking for tips to deal with spears, I figured i'd grab one myself and see what other people did to counter it. And what they did was largely nothing. 'Cause if you've got high stamina and decent regen, you can roll/poke in easymode all day.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:51 pm

    I tried that too when i first started using a spear, until i met a guy who could DA me constantly with the claymore's running attack, he killed me without me landing more than one or two hits. The thing is, using a spear well doesn't look more skillful than a mediocre user. I'm sure you did well because you're already a seasoned PvPer with all the instincts and reflexes of such.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by befowler on Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:54 pm

    Another thing I hate about the DSS is that the lightning bolt seems to get the same lag bonus as a SS/CSS. So even if I try to back off half the time I eat a lightning bolt even if I'm off to one side. Actually died this way in the forest once when I was hiding behind a bunch of trees and the bolt went by way off on my left and I still took damage.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:08 pm

    Ghadis_God wrote:I tried that too when i first started using a spear, until i met a guy who could DA me constantly with the claymore's running attack, he killed me without me landing more than one or two hits. The thing is, using a spear well doesn't look more skillful than a mediocre user. I'm sure you did well because you're already a seasoned PvPer with all the instincts and reflexes of such.
    Did you actually read my post? I said mediocre players with spears are lethal, where good players with spears are nearly untouchable. Skill still plays a part, but spears do the work for me, thus lowering the amount of skill I need to be effective. Now because I'm at least decent, I can win nearly every fight just by using a spear, because there's nothing they can do to counter me without twop thats not dependant on me screwing up.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Rynn on Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:15 pm

    I actually greatly dispute the claim of the pike being better.
    First off, the pike has a range of 6.7, and the Dragonslayer Spear has a range of 8.5...
    Secondly, while the pike can yield better damage with a buff, it actually does -less- damage per hit, hitting about 20-30 less damage per hit. This makes the DSS far better, especially since it's lightning bolt R2 does an extra 300-400 damage; read; a buff's amount of damage.

    Spears are abhorrently easy to win with, I can roll-poke players far better then me to death while using the things... and I can poke gankers to death long enough for them to use 20 flasks and a few humanities, without ever getting hit. The weapon turns a bad player into a threat, and good player into the god of war.

    Then it has a habit of lagging, so you often get hit by blows you dodged.

    The DSS is often used 2 handed, but that doesn't change the fact that it's got all that power available, and then the user can decide to turtle if that isn't working.

    For example, that claymore guy? if you had equiped a shield, you could have just blocked his running attacks, and poked him in return.
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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by ithunktwice on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:23 am

    Rynn wrote: For example, that claymore guy? if you had equiped a shield, you could have just blocked his running attacks, and poked him in return.
    I think he said the guy was deadangling (deadangleing?) him, so he wouldn't be able to block it unless there's some strategy to blocking deadangles that I don't know of.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:31 am

    um, dodge? Its a running attack, its pretty easy to see coming, depending on how hes doing so you could just bs him for trying a running attack, it works for me unless they're using spears or halberds


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by ithunktwice on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:32 am

    I was assuming he didn't dodge, and was also wondering if there was some trick to avoid deadangles, like unlock and face in the same direction as them or something like that.


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    Re: Onto another note... which one of these builds do you think would fare better against gankers. [Also a mini-rant]

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:59 am

    invincibility frames. IE:dodge. You might be able to partial parry, I recently discovered that you can parry 1 attack and partial parry another in the same motion, meaning parrying into multiple foes R1 spam is viable, if risky.


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