Humanity and Death

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    JohnnyHarpoon
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    Humanity and Death

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat May 05, 2012 5:31 am

    I've recently been awol for a month or so, not a terribly big deal, but I do feel somewhat out of the loop, so I apologize if similar thoughts have already been expressed.

    But I remember a while back everybody was debating what exactly constitutes going Hollow, and it was argued whether or not characters can actually go Hollow even if they are in Human form (e.g. Master Logan, Solaire, etc.)

    Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was Emergence who asked the question: What exactly was it that made Humanity become a separate entity from Humans themselves? Or something along that line.

    And I don't know, everybody had theories and such, and it was fun to talk about...but I just killed Soliare for the first time in a while and it got me thinking. Before he dies, he has obviously gone crazy and believes the parasite on his head is his own sun. Once he is dying, he proclaims something like, "Dark...so Dark." I believe that Gwyn's Undead Curse is the Gods' way of sustaining immortality, and the 'terrible and frightful dark' that is constantly referred to is truly, and quite simply, death itself.

    It seems kind of obvious I guess, so again, I apologize if this idea has already been accepted as common knowledge. It's pretty consistent in mythology for Gods to be immortal, but I was thinking about Greek Mythology in particular, and how in the Iliad Apollo says that the Humans have something that even the Gods do not - an enduring heart - for the Gods do not have to cope with the pains of life, specifically death.

    So, separating a human from death, actually, would very much be to separate a person from their humanity. And that seems to be exactly what's happened in terms of this undead curse - we already knew it was some kind of schism between humans and humanity, but I believe what that schism entails is the denial, or revocation, of this enduring heart that comes with being a mortal, self-aware being.

    And that's it.


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat May 05, 2012 9:24 am

    I haven't seen that explanation before. Brilliant. That makes prefect sense actually and goes with the lore that points out how humans didn't find a use for humanity while human.

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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 05, 2012 9:29 am

    That would also show how people become undead. Solaire mentions he became undead for his journey. So he basiacally ripped out his own humanity. Honestly that sounds like in order to become undead notingthat becoming undead make syou functionally immortal requires an act so horrendous your humanity actually abandons you. My god there are so many symbolic references there. And it fits so well with the theme of the game. It means you actually are one of the worst people to live. Logans heretical methods made him undead (think about that, his experiments to make spells were so horrible he lost his humanity). Rickert locked himself in the cell because of what he did to become immortal, I wonder why the crestfallen warrior is crestfallen and waits for hollowing? Too much!


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Eolan on Sat May 05, 2012 10:09 am

    I would imagine a moment of intense sadness and tragedy may also separate one from their humanity. I always see going hollow as giving up, and that can come from doing something heinous or having something heinous happen to you as well.

    Immense dissapointment or the loss of a loved one may burn whatever hope is left turning one hollow. That and doing something so horrendous that you choose to break your moral compass to cope, thereby separating you from your humanity.
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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 05, 2012 10:13 am

    Turning hollow and turning undead are different though Eolan. You are right about turning hollow, it seems to be triggered by failure however turning ndea is different. I dont think sadness would seperate you from humanity. Its not something you ever see.


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat May 05, 2012 10:37 am

    Dough, The Punisher gave up his humanity out of grief

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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Eolan on Sat May 05, 2012 10:39 am

    Well some people give up their lives due to an overwhleming sense of depression. Some people just choose not to move out of the way of a passing train. Some people kill others due to an intense personal sadness. Think of any high school shooting and where that starts in the persons mind.

    I think the undead thing personally isn't a set of circumstances. I think something is going wrong in the mechanisms of the gods, which is basically making it so the dead aren't processed properly.

    As the flame fades their hunger has gone out of control, and they are consuming it in ways they never have before. It could be their greed for humanity has caused them to suck every inch out of everyone. meaning that we cant rest unless we rest with ours intact. perhaps if our humanity is stolen from us in death, we cannot rest until we regain it.

    Being killed on the battlefield under a gods banner might constitute a god robbing your humanity? Abusing your free will and your right to choose. Its kinda what Gwyndolin does to you no?

    i would have said the balance was fine as when we die we join the eternal flame, but as it fades the gods have been highjacking humanity and mainlining it. Hence the covenants.



    "When theres no more room in hell the dead shall walk the earth" random pointless quote but im trying to stoke the fires of debate happy
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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 05, 2012 10:42 am

    @Skare but you see (if Im getting his story right) he only lost his humanity when he started killing. His sadness made him kill, but the killings cost him his humaity (Actualy havent seen th movie, just read the one line description under the imdb link).
    @Eolan Why do you think the gods are consuming humanity?


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat May 05, 2012 10:51 am

    I always took it as the grief made him want to do that. Sort of started the process and just kept rolling.

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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Eolan on Sat May 05, 2012 10:51 am

    I think in a basic sense, sustenance. Like a sacrificial lamb supposedly maintains the gods power. Every religion requires the faith and sacrifice of its followers to keep it alive.
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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Eolan on Sat May 05, 2012 10:52 am

    Btw this talk right here? Thats why i joined this forum i loooove it.
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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Sat May 05, 2012 3:46 pm

    Hehe, nice!

    It's true, turning Undead and turning Hollow are different, and I still don't know exactly how Humans and Humanity become divided...but even think about it purely as a player - if you are invaded (and not intentionally trying to PvP), how much harder would you fight if you had 40 Humanity than if you had, say 4? Obviously you'd probably try either way, cause the game/fighting people is fun...but doesn't losing 40 Humanity just seem so much more heartbreaking?

    And that's it, right there. Your humanity motivates you, you become disappointed if you lose it, it's more a commodity than Souls, even. When you die, you come back, but sans your humanity...so while you are immortal, the concept of some kind of loss is still afoot, and thus the enduring heart of man can mourn the loss of their own humanity, if nothing else.

    So, honestly, I'd say going hollow is quite the opposite of some kind of grief - it is grief, and loss, and especially death that make us Human. Take that away from us, and we lose our enduring hearts - we lose the one, special thing that even the Gods do not possess. The preciousness of life itself dwindles...and then, so does the mind.


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Spurgun on Sat May 05, 2012 3:58 pm

    you deserve a 1+ for that. amazing
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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by ARSP on Sat May 05, 2012 4:08 pm

    Here is another thought If you lose your humanity when you die where does it go? Because I think that Humanity maybe a piece of the darksoul so since souls I think are never truly lost where does humanity go?


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by cloudyeki on Sat May 05, 2012 4:37 pm

    Funny thing, I just killed Gwyn again too ng+++, and I did it with magic instead of parrying (cough cough). Anyways, As Gwyn died he looked hollow'd. His skin went grey-ish and sunk in, and he lost his eyes. Dunno how to look at it myself, but I'm sure someone else has noticed his dieing animation and already come up with some theory as to why he seems to hollow out as he dies.


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Eolan on Sat May 05, 2012 4:59 pm

    JohnnyHarpoon wrote:Hehe, nice!

    It's true, turning Undead and turning Hollow are different, and I still don't know exactly how Humans and Humanity become divided...but even think about it purely as a player - if you are invaded (and not intentionally trying to PvP), how much harder would you fight if you had 40 Humanity than if you had, say 4? Obviously you'd probably try either way, cause the game/fighting people is fun...but doesn't losing 40 Humanity just seem so much more heartbreaking?

    And that's it, right there. Your humanity motivates you, you become disappointed if you lose it, it's more a commodity than Souls, even. When you die, you come back, but sans your humanity...so while you are immortal, the concept of some kind of loss is still afoot, and thus the enduring heart of man can mourn the loss of their own humanity, if nothing else.

    So, honestly, I'd say going hollow is quite the opposite of some kind of grief - it is grief, and loss, and especially death that make us Human. Take that away from us, and we lose our enduring hearts - we lose the one, special thing that even the Gods do not possess. The preciousness of life itself dwindles...and then, so does the mind.

    Yup thats the whole meta joke of the game. Its probably mocked by the pendant.

    We will all turn hollow wandering around lordran.

    Its a brilliant work of art because it so entwines the game-play with its story.


    Also the part i mean by sadness and pain, is that if one endures enough of it, it breaks us and turns us hollow. Because we are overwhelmed and can no longer feel it. Think of the reaction to a loved ones death, it often leaves people cold and empty.
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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by Emergence on Sat May 05, 2012 9:14 pm

    I will have to go through my posts but a bit back I did mention that I felt Humanity was mortality, and the separation from humanity led to a schism in the natural order. The world and men decay, but never die. They are unnaturally kept alive and the cleansing renewal of death and rebirth is denied to the world. In a sense you can say the gods are attempting to do the same thing in keeping the fires lit. They are artificially trying to hold the fire, whereas the fires natural, untended state is to spark, rise, blaze, whither and finally extinguish.

    When constructs are not allowed to follow the natural way of things, dischord arises. The only unchangeable law of the universe is that all things change and pass. What we have in this Dark Souls universe is a collection of divines unwilling to accept that and sunsequently have robbed common man of their ability to participate in a natural cycle. They take the core of what makes man a part of that order, and use it as a fuel to kindle what they hope staves off their participation in that order.

    I think this thread really hits to the absolute core of what this game is about.

    Do you accept your fate with grace?
    Or do you struggle against the current?


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    Re: Humanity and Death

    Post by DoughGuy on Sat May 05, 2012 9:32 pm

    Like all things born from the fire there must be disparity in the human race. Life and death. An upset in the natural order upsets this removing one half of the disparity. Just tying in the first flame because it is realted to this obviously.


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