Raid Bosses?

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    Derpwraith
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    Raid Bosses?

    Post by Derpwraith on Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:36 am

    Raid bosses are the kind that is usually powerful enough that it ranges somewhere from incredibly difficult to virtually impossible to kill alone. And certain requirements for that boss to appear? Like you have to be in new game+, you have to have a certain (amount of) item(s) to find him or you have to be a certain level or above? It is usually strongly recommended that you engage a raid boss as a party since they are designed to be incredibly hard to kill solo.

    What do you think? Since Dark Souls II is supposed to be incredibly hard, maybe this would be a good touch, or possibly the exact opposite. And if you want a good example of a raid boss then check out Borderlands.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by Reaperfan on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:29 am

    This sounds very similar to the "co-op only boss" discussions that went around way back when before the AotA DLC. I think the biggest problem with something like this is tied squarely into the Souls series's mechanics in that if a Phantom dies, you have to use their sign to re-summon them. So if a boss requires multiple players to defeat, what happens when a single player slips up and dies? Do the rest of the players automatically lose the fight? Now maybe for this one particular boss they could implement some off-brand method of summoning that allows you to resummon in the middle of the fight, but I'm not sure how that would work and could potentially be abused (if phantoms can be resummoned then they're technically immortal and the host could just sit back and let the phantoms do all the work while they just focus on resummoning).

    If the boss doesn't strictly require a full party of phantoms to defeat, then it's just another one of the bosses that would serve as self-imposed challenge bait. I've always thought Kalameet was FROM's attempt at a boss designed to be co-op'ed due to his high mobility, wide array of sweeping and AoE attacks, high health, and being a strictly optional boss, but even then you get people like the forum member who beat him at SL1 on NG+7. Basically, if the boss can be solo'd, then that's likely how most players will take them on.

    However, I do see potential in the idea. Something like the Jenova fight at the end of Final Fantasy VII where your party had to split up into 3 separate groups and fight different parts of the boss with each group. Then you have the fog gate into the arena blocked by doors that can only be opened by having a player stand on a switch (with 3 switches it would make it so you need 3 players to get into the arena at all), with the boss area itself separated into branching paths right at the entrance of the arena. Something like the Dragon God in Demon's Souls, where one player goes to the first ballista, another to the second ballista, and the third to the boss's front area. The two players on the sides fight off the arms (in lieu of the ballistas themselves) while the player in front deals with the head. If all sides aren't occupied with fighting a player then it can double up its attacks on another area (a phantom fighting an arm dies and now it can use that arm against the person fighting the head).


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:23 am

    I think it would suck. Mainly because if there was a co op only thing, some people may never get it. Or, you could be waiting a few days for a tag to show up. Or, people with no internet not being able to experience it.
    This also goes along with ALL these other posts where you need something to unlock areas. Just doesn't fit the series.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by Derpwraith on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:49 am

    I mean, you CAN solo raid bosses but it would be 10x more difficult.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by passivefamiliar on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:28 am

    this is one of those things that's really hard to predict how it would work. The example of borederlands works well though. Those boss like monsters were TOUGH, would destroy you the first time you fought them. And even with a partner it was tough.

    it couldLD be alota lot like black phantoms, maybe only in NG+ they would spawn. It would make NG+ more interesting. And we'd all like that, NG+ is great but you can predict most of it. Adding different enemies, or even just black phantom mini bosses all throughout the game. That'd be great.

    this would be hard to get just right, but i adore the idea.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:47 am

    Derpwraith wrote:I mean, you CAN solo raid bosses but it would be 10x more difficult.

    You said,
    virtually impossible to kill alone

    Meaning, you HAVE to get help.

    certain requirements for that boss to appear? Like you have to be in new game+

    unlockable bosses where you may need boss soul to make a certain weapon. If that weapon is part of your build, you'd have to play a full game just for your weapon. Before anyone says, "maybe you can't use the soul for anything", to me, it would be useless to have it then.
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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by Onion Knight on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:02 pm

    See White Knight Chronicles 1 and 2 for a great example of a non-MMO trying this feature. 

    A.K.A it doesn't work.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:28 pm

    I'd consider it a lot like Kalameet. Something I would never do alone, but something other people COULD do alone. 

    This will probably be done. But not something that requires multiplayer to defeat. Just extreme skill OR multiplayer.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by Serious_Much on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:39 pm

    I don't think this would be a good idea. As a primarily PvE game, it's focus is on the player. It's created as a single player game so that everyone, even those without internet or online can play the full pve game and get an almost full experience out of it.

    They'll never know a genuine coop or invasion, but that first single player experience on its own is wonderful, and probably the best part of any souls game


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:53 pm

    What Serious said.

    On a personal level I just recently started my experience with this with Soul Sacrifice. I've actually put my Platinum quest to the side for the moment because of a couple Raid type bosses. My issue is that the stupidity or arrogance of my "partners" never ceases to amaze me. For instance, I have tried to host some major enemies before and I will tell the group "use ice" for example. Which means the enemy for that game is fire based. I will still see people bring fire to use against this enemy. Seriously? It'd be different if I hadn't told you.

    Or trying to coordinate tactics. That can be worse. More often than not I admit people will take the elemental advice which has a huge impact. But for another example, there's one really tough fight with two identical bosses (one of the hardest in the game). You need to do this twice for one of my trophies. Only once have I convinced the group that we can win if:

    1. I constantly use a shield to neutralize the attacks of one monster.
    2. Everyone else should attack the one I'm negating with everything they've got.



    And this is all assuming that I'm lucky enough to be paired with people strong enough to be significant in the fight in the first place.

    I don't mind a challenge but relying on strangers is not my strong point. Maybe if I had more friends I would like the idea of Raid bosses.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:56 pm

    The idea of raid bosses is to bring people together. Considering that this is easy in an MMO, in DkS, it's nearly impossible. You're supposed to be isolated, not party-up. 

    But, granted, you'll have less idiots in DkS. People who put down their sign usually know what they're doing for that area.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by GrinTwist on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:41 pm

    I'd be against this entirely.

    You would have to take a lot of things into account like:

    - If the boss get's harder on NG+2
    - What happens if multiplayer starts to die?
    - What happens in offline mode?
    - What happens in online mode playing solo?
    - What happens if a multiplayer glitch were to take effect while fighting these bosses? (Like summoning a player but them ending up as an invader)

    The main thing I'm focusing on at least right now is the second question. Part of what makes Dark Souls great is that, if you removed multiplayer, the difficulty doesn't automatically disappear from the game. Adding something like this is in, even if you can still solo, does create a difficulty that relies heavily on the aspect of multiplayer doing this might ruin someone's experience with the game years after the release of it because multiplayer may have diminished greatly.

    Also, one thing people also focus on a lot is that the difficulty in Dark Souls is by most fair. Adding a boss like this may in fact skew the difficulty when someone is soloing the boss and add an 'unfair' disadvantage for the player. 

    Sure, it's still possible to beat it just like we can all beat the bed of chaos, but that doesn't mean the fight itself will be fun to fight or rewarding when we finally beat the boss.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:54 pm

    simple idea... make raid bosses appear in certain areas where there are traps/tools to damage them which are only accessible while solo, if in a group you must fight normally, the traps wouldn't be like the ballista's you use on the dragon god in demons souls but enough to do decent damage, and besides with only one player it would take skill to get the boss in trap range while not getting eaten.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:27 pm

    JoeBroski09 wrote:The idea of raid bosses is to bring people together. Considering that this is easy in an MMO, in DkS, it's nearly impossible. You're supposed to be isolated, not party-up. 

    But, granted, you'll have less idiots in DkS. People who put down their sign usually know what they're doing for that area.

    Have to disagree on that last sentence. Not everyone who drops a sign knows what they are doing. Take undead burg, you start the game with a few humanity. You use them all because you keep dying as a human. In order to get a summon you need to be alive so you drop your sign hoping to get the humanity to revive again.
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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by JoeBroski09 on Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:11 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:
    JoeBroski09 wrote:The idea of raid bosses is to bring people together. Considering that this is easy in an MMO, in DkS, it's nearly impossible. You're supposed to be isolated, not party-up. 

    But, granted, you'll have less idiots in DkS. People who put down their sign usually know what they're doing for that area.

    Have to disagree on that last sentence. Not everyone who drops a sign knows what they are doing. Take undead burg, you start the game with a few humanity. You use them all because you keep dying as a human. In order to get a summon you need to be alive so you drop your sign hoping to get the humanity to revive again.
    Would a raid boss be in the undead burg where people are just starting...? Plus, that scenario is a very small percentage of people putting down their summon sign.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:26 pm

    You misinterpreted wut I'm saying. I put undead burg since we have NO idea wut areas are in DkS2.
    You said people who drop there signs usually know what they are doing. And I disagree. Using undead burg, was just an example of a person dropping their sign in THAT area. My comment wasn't directed at raid bosses.


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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by Back Lot Basher on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:52 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    I've always thought Kalameet was FROM's attempt at a boss designed to be co-op'ed due to his high mobility, wide array of sweeping and AoE attacks, high health, and being a strictly optional boss, but even then you get people like the forum member who beat him at SL1 on NG+7.  Basically, if the boss can be solo'd, then that's likely how most players will take them on.

    I'm, at best, and average DS player.  In the years I've played these games, I've seen skilled people pull off some amazing solo feats.  Honestly, I'm not sure From could create a boss that someone wouldn't master.  In many cases, it's just a matter of having the patience to endure a long, drawn out battle, and still maintain your timing.
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    Re: Raid Bosses?

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:45 pm

    Covenant wars > Raid Bosses.


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