For the Glory of Alvina

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    strangejoy
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    For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by strangejoy on Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:57 am

    It's been a while since the forest hunters created a thread dedicated to sharing advice about how to kill hosts and their phantoms. As Tolvo noted, we were posting some of this material in other threads, but this topic deserves it's own thread.

    Have at, my forest brethren!



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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:05 pm

    Well since I was mentioned I might as well bring over the post that sparked it haha.

    Some advice to other hunters, before doing some invading get in a bit of a refresher in the forest. Run a whole circle from Alvina's house past the mushroom people, through the cat area, across the bridge, and back up to her house. See just how fast you can do it, as well there are certain ridges and items that can be jumped over but not run over, and without proper timing and angles you'll merely hit a wall. This can be the difference between surviving a fight or not. Even if the whole forest is dead, it is still your ally. Another trick if you are using the DWGR, the moment you land from a high fall roll. You can instantly recover, you still take the damage but you don't have the fall absorption animation, you merely roll and go on your way. As well near to where the Pharis bow can be found you can jump the gap and land near to the mushroom people. From here also you can wait just out of the fall distance as not to get oddly staggered, and use force or some variation to knock them off.

    By the way, almost all of my tips will pertain to farmers. I figure if you want to do some 1v1 type combat, you should seek someone who focuses more on duelling than forest PvP where the focus is killing 1-3 people at once, or at least the host.
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by nsane32 on Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:49 pm

    yea farmers are a real problem in the forest I use my DMB to help


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:01 pm

    Another tip. Sometimes farmers like to trick you into thinking they want a fair fight. They will split up and each focus on one of you trying to separate the two of you if there is more than one invader. This is always just a trick though, the host will flask when the phantom is hurt and if the host is hurt the phantom will merely BS whoever is facing the host. This won't last for long, but you can act like you are falling for it. If you are focusing on the phantom rush towards him then dash past him straight to the host and double team for the kill. If you are targeting the host you can position yourself to force them to look away from the other invader giving them a perfect window to sneak in a BS or Nuke ability. Don't for a second think, "Oh they obviously feel like having a sporting fight now!" As soon as one of you dies they're just going to double team the other, show no mercy and don't fall prey to such deceit. Merely feign foolishness then strike while they believe their trap has worked perfectly.
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by aceluby on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:18 pm

    Along these same lines I've been seeing a lot of invisible hosts and phantoms to try to lure invaders into thinking they want 1v1 matches. They get you into an area and the invisible one will BS you while you try to fight 1v1. I don't have a counter, but don't fall for it. If all you see is a phantom the host is trying to lure you into a false sense of security.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:25 pm

    One trick is that as you run up always try to lock on, as well take a look at the smaller shrubs. If all of them are broken except for one, expect a hidden enemy. If one is a different color, expect a hidden enemy. If you have the memory, and notice an extra one, obviously there is an enemy. Along with invisible hosts and others, I tend to spam the lock on as I run in search of my target, even when bowing I'm constantly double checking using it to see if there are any phantoms. As well one trick is to carry a massive damage chaos+4 at least weapon on you. That with a hornets ring will earn you a kill from a backstab most of the time, and a WotG or seconday hit will usually kill the host if the BS doesn't, reserve such a tactic though for if you actually know that it is indeed a farmer. For this reason I carry two weapons, my duelling weapon and my anti-farmer weapon. Usually I go with a +4 Chaos Rapier or Gargoyle's Halberd, the Rapier being faster and lighter does around 1000-1300 with most backstabs, the Halberd will do 1200-1600 depending on the armor. If you riposte them as well it is death outright unless they have an absurd health pool.

    Another quick little trick, if you have been backstabbed and are getting up with someone getting ready to try for a chain BS you can return the favour threefold. This will take a lot of practice, but as you are rising do not lock onto them, immediately make your character turn and parry then riposte. Usually they will just spam attack in hopes of killing you as you get up or getting a chain BS, but that parry will leave them open, and if you have the chaos weapon ready just quickly switch to it while they are open and finish them off in one hit. Farmers never see this one coming, nor do they ever like that one. That one in particular usually gets me a lot of messages from farmers.

    By the way, the Parry Riposte trick should be reserved for when only one of them is trying to finish you off after a backstab, if more than one of them is trying to you should rather roll to get out of there or turn and block, as you can easily be hit and killed by one while the other is parried, unless you do get the timing just right.
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by befowler on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:01 pm

    Here are some of my basics.

    First, have the right mindset. The point of farmers is to kill as many phantoms as quickly as possible, for some combination of souls and lolz. In pursuit of this, many will camp in visible locations near the stairs or up near Alvina, or run circles through the area trying to surprise forest covs. Denying them quick kills by not rushing right at them can frustrate them into mistakes, lure them into areas they're less comfortable with, get them separated from each other, and give time for other invaders to appear to help you. Using a bow (the dragonslayer bow in particular) combined with the ring of fog can really anger them and cause them to make mistakes. It's also possible to launch them right off a cliff if they're hugging the stairs too closely.

    Second, learn the summon locations. This just takes some practice, but is particularly helpful for darkwraiths who don't want to appear at the top of the stairs and get ganked. Similarly, if you can move the farmers away from the stairs, you drastically increase the survival odds for any darkwraiths that appear there, and they will usually help you out in return.

    Third, learn all the NPC locations. Again, seems obvious, but knowing where a hidden below ground nest of treants is can be a lifesaver. I'm constantly amazed by how often farmers get surprised by these things. Their long range attacks are crazy in groups, and they clip through most obstacles. Overconfidence has killed many a farmer in the areas along the treant cliffs.

    Fourth, open chests! Often the farmers haven't opened the chest for the stone armor near the bridge or the magic ember near the mushroom people for some reason. As a forest cov member, you can open them, although you can't take the item. However, if they realize what you've done (usually from the sound) the farmers will flip out because they'll worry they'll lose the items if they die (no idea if this is true, but they don't know either). It's possible to get in some fun backstabs when they go for the stone armor, or really ruin their day with all the mushroom people guarding the ember. Wait until they are in earshot and then open the chest and I guarantee you those farmers will come running, and they will likely be in a panic.

    Fifth, AOE attacks. The heavily wooded areas are great for using aoe attacks like fire tempest and WotG. Gravelord greatsword dance is also fun and the popup can knock people off cliffs. The trees can block their heavy swings, while also providing a bit of visual cover so they don't realize what you're casting until it's too late. Cloud spells such as poison or toxic can also give you cover for AOE blasts.

    Lastly, if you are new to the cov or PvP, getting kills is great, but even if you can't you should always make them work for it. Every estus flask or spell you get them to waste is one that another member won't have to deal with later. Poison knives and dung piles are also fun ways to harrass farmers you may not be able to handle and cause them to waste resources of their own.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:06 pm

    I refuse to be outdone!

    Haha, I almost feel like this should just be a sticky, one long compilation of Forest Hunter PvP information.

    A little thing that can save you, it is pretty simple but I see many hunters fall for this little annoyance. When backing away from an enemy they will often back up into the trees allowing the farmers to gain ground and make them lose their breathing room. one thing is as soon as you notice your camera get even the slightest closer to your body strafe a tiny bit to avoid the tree. It's such a small thing, but this really can be a matter of life and death.

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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by barecanvas on Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:50 pm

    I usually bs fish the phantom with a bandits knife+ 15 and then leave the host nice and vunerable fore the kill
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by befowler on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:21 pm

    If you ask nicely, Brokewilly here on the forums can also email dedicated forest cov members a masters thesis in advanced host baiting in the forest. It's sublime


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Spurgun on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:31 pm

    i invade as a forest cov member pretty often but i play as a host in the forest(alone) just as often and ive fought some members that were spammers and gankers (i have nothing against a 2v1 as long as they make it clear that it is a
    2v1 and don't stand back only to jump at after some time) but most of the time they fight honorably, or at least a LOT more honorably than the hosts in the forest so props to the forest cov members for not turning into what they fight against big grin
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Yukon on Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:35 pm

    Why is it that brokewilly won't just post his tactic here? I have seen this come up in several forest hunter threads, I figure most of the regulars going to them... are regulars not griefers. So why the big top secret 'meet-me-in-the-back-alley' approch?

    That said after hearing this posted about 5 times in the last week I am curious, and if you don't want to post it here, I'll be impatiently waiting in the alley.
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by befowler on Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:00 pm

    It's for everyone's safety. The technique is so awesome it will actually cause brain embolisms in anyone who is not Forest Cov +2 or higher.

    (also, it's just really long)


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by strangejoy on Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:16 pm

    Some additional tips:

    1. Don't fight them on their favorite turf. The groups of two and three will generally hang out near the stairs and in the clearance near Alvina. They'll gesture and taunt you to lure you to these spots. Don't fall for it. These are the easiest places for them get on both sides of you. Instead of running towards them, delay and wait for them to run towards you. Lure them to the hiding treants, the treants near the eastern set, the bear cats (awesome mobs), the giant mushrooms, or the stairs leading to the mushrooms (great place for WoG, which goes through walls). If they don't follow, you might luck out and get another invader.

    2. You must learn to pivot bs and counter bs. The good news is that the forest is the perfect place to practice. EWGF has posted very helpful videos on YouTube (a simple search will easily find them). My personal favorite tactic is to lock off, run away from the campers, lock on as they approach, backpedal, then suddenly shift directions at the last minute (run towards them) while tapping R1 as I pass through or beside them.

    3. Big hits win the day. You're not going to win a 2v1 or 3v1 by chipping. The host will chug an estus every time you get chip damage. Instead, you need to hit big. The hornet's ring, inner strength, soul spear, backstabs, ripostes, and buffs will help you do this. With all or one of these tools you should be able to either OHKO them or hurt them so badly that a wakeup WoG or wakeup combustion seals the deal.

    4. Why are you fighting two opponents alone? If you see two opponents, don't rush them like a fool. Give them the runaround until another invader shows up. Even if the invader doesn't show up, you'll force the host and his phantom to act recklessly. When they think you're fleeing, you have a perfect chance to backstab them by shifting directions rapidly. At the very least, try to engage the help of mobs.

    5. Force the host to attack Alvina (don't worry, she's immortal). You will sometimes invade a host and see the outline of Alvina in her favorite window. This means that the host hasn't yet rejected her offer to join the forest covenent. If this is the case, luring the host into Alvina's room can cause the host to panic and they may refuse to attack. A well timed firestorm or gravelord sword dance can add to the confusion, and the cramped quarters almost guarantee a hit if you have enough poise to avoid an interuption.

    6. Your shield is for parrying. You can't turtle against multiple opponents at the same time. This doesn't mean that shields are worthless in the forest, but it means that you need to learn how to parry. If you're not big on parrying, consider two-handing your weapon or wielding a weapon on each hand.

    7. You're going to need at least 54-55 poise. Running around the forest in light armor is fun, but you don't want a single hit to stagger you and give your two or three enemies a chance to rip you to shreds. This is particularly true in a laggy invasion.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Brokewilly on Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:38 pm

    Any hunters who are trying to increase their survivability when invading the forest - should listen closely to any information passed along by: Strangjoy, Tolvo, DxV04, Befowler and Zakkia (I haven't seen him around the board for a while). The tactics these guys have provided has helped me immensely with increasing my victories as faithful servant of Alvina. Nuff respect due!!

    Here are some recommendations for hunters who are struggling in the forest (I hope I don't repeat anything that has been previously mentioned):

    1. If it is bang try to fight defensively as long as possible but keep the pressure on the host though - you don't want the host to get comfortable. Hopefully help will arrive to save your bacon. But at the end of the day we as supposed to be willing to die for Alvina - so don't be passive in the forest.

    2. If it is 2 v 2 then it is imperative you keep your opponent occupied and be prepared to switch opponents if either one of you are double-teamed (kinda of like the switching opponents after a screen in basketball).

    3. Immediately move to a more tactically defensible location once you invade - if possible try to situate yourself so you can only be attacked from one direction (hint hint - the cliff with killer bushes, the bridge right behind Alvina's house)

    4. Look around when you invade and take it slow if you are not immediately jumped when you initially invade. Take note of any glowing minions and esecially if you can't see the host then its probably a set-up so adjust your defenses accordingly (use trees for cover to keep from being sniped with a DS bow, deny the ability of the enemy to set-up a pincer attack, etc).

    5. Keep invading if you are able to kill a phantom and you are then killed before you can take down the host - it is good chance you will invade the same camper and he will either be alone or fighting another hunter (or other phantom). I have had so many campers simply disconnect the game or kill themselves because I was constantly invading preventing them from digging in.

    6. Use the environment to your advantage and totally ignore the griefing you will receive from campers. Why hosts believe hunters are willing to fight their type of battle is truly beyond me.

    There are so many other help tactics out there - all hunters should review previous posts around this topic (especially posts by the individuals named above). The war is neverending but we can at least make a brave stand against the ganking hoard if we use our noodle!!!

    Good hunting everyone - see you in the forest!


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by strangejoy on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:09 pm

    It's been said many times before, but this is a reminder for new people reading this thread: The forest hunters have an unofficial truce with the gravelords. If you invade someone with a black aura (the gravelord aura), please be considerate and drop a few EoD before either black crystaling out or hanging around and helping them against double-teaming. The gravelords provide us with black phantom giant and little mushrooms to help us fight hosts. The giant bp mushrooms can kill a host or his/her phantom in one shot.

    Also a few words about forestwraiths (darkwraiths who invade in the forest): there is no official or unofficial truce that I know about, but they can still be helpful to forest hunters. As you can tell by my sig, I've done more forest wraithing recently than forest hunting. My heart is still with the forest hunters, and I still answer to Alvina (sorry Kaathe, but thanks for the orbs). I invade as a red instead of a blue for three reasons: (1) I don't want to double team lone hosts, and being a red allows me to kill blues that interfere with the rare 1v1 in the forest; (2) certain forest hunters have made a habit of being AFK to harvest souls; I like killing these betrayers before they get any souls; (3) humanity is better than garbage, titanite pieces, and pendants (I already have dozens of these damn things); (4) I don't particularly want to invade low level hosts who accidentally wander into the forest, and I'm pretty sure that the DW invasion parameters prevent this.

    If you face a dishonorable forest wraith who joins a host and his phantom for farming, remember that the forest wraith can still hurt and be hurt by the host and his phantoms. Fight them in close quarters to maximize collateral damage. To me, there is nothing more shameful than a forest wraith who helps farmers. Kill them mercilessly and taunt them as they die.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Dj-B-Man-Jr on Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:12 pm

    I apologize for not leaving any tips, as a dedicated hunter i'll try to post some later, but have any of you guys actually made that jump from pharis's area to the mushroom territory? I've only JUST made it once, after 6 attempts in my own world. Any tips for that jump fellow hunters?
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:29 pm

    With all the active Forest Hunters and Gravelords, I am surprised we haven't seen a coordinated Gravelord the Forest event.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by User on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:32 pm

    An event is needed when there is not active event, emergence silly. If they keep on doing such things, it would be that it is already happening, and this Event has been in place since the Death Agreement of the two sides. An event is created to make an event, not to continue one.
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by befowler on Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:59 pm

    Another basic tip is to pregame your inventory management. Before you start defending the forest, clean out your backpack at a bonfire. Then after you equip everything you want, go into inventory and move around the other items you may need so they are close to what you are wielding already. Let's say you have the ring of fap and the cat ring for summoning. Move the DWGR right next to the cat ring in your inventory, so when you arrive you can immediately click on the cat ring in your inventory, move down one spot, and equip the DWGR in almost no time at all. Do the same with other things like a bow you might swap in for a weapon, a catalyst you might swap for a talisman, or what have you. This is a good idea for any area of the game, but in the forest can save your bacon if you appear close to the farmers and don't have the flip ring on already.

    It can also let you quickly respec on the fly if you encounter another forest defender with an obvious build (such as wearing the dusk crown and running with a catalyst/MLGS). Depending on your own build, you may then want to switch over to focus more on melee if it looks like your ally will be focused on magic.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:12 pm

    if you can corner a target in alvinas room... you can keep them pinned if you're a stunlocker and if neccessary make a break for the mushroom parents or the bridge. just had a nice success with this on my dual butcher knife build. also read about (befowlers?) streaker build, lol! add a channelers trident to that and you could trap farmers in a cloud of mist with ents then buff said ents for a possible massacre! (just an idea...) also... try and learn general movesets certain armor sets/weapons denote, if its med/light armor expect parries or bs's if not bewary of stunlock.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by befowler on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:24 pm

    Haha yes, buffing the ents! Great idea!

    Another one I had was wondering whether that aural decoy spell could be used to get the ents to actually move off on their own rather than having to lure farmers close to them. Sending an army of them marching out of the trees would be awesome, particularly if they're buffed. Gonna try that tonight


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by User on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:25 pm

    well, it works for other enemies, it should work for the ents. As the Aural decoy does not subject itself to most enemies (except for the stationed sentientals at times, I have found), it should work for you with the ents. They react to sound as other enemies, they should function the same.
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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by Emergence on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:27 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:An event is needed when there is not active event, emergence silly. If they keep on doing such things, it would be that it is already happening, and this Event has been in place since the Death Agreement of the two sides. An event is created to make an event, not to continue one.

    An agreement is not an event, since there is no active coordination. A focused coordination between both sides over a set time period would create an impact clearly seen over a span of days, and further reinforce the aforementioned agreement. So there is a distinction. Merely an observation, but I digress. That is a topic for another thread if both sides want to make that happen.


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:54 pm

    as a forest hunter phantom can you undead rapport a forest npc to drag them along with you as back up, as the spell inflcts no damage it shouldnt betray the covanent


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    Re: For the Glory of Alvina

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