It's a duel till they start losing...

I have been randomly invading, and I know not to expect them to play "fair". But what's irking me is when they bow, and you are having a nice even duel until they are about 30% health, and then the BS spamming begins. I can counter it, but I still usually die from a backstab. Why even try to duel if you go into knowing that you'll win? (I use this sentence loosely) I wouldn't care so much if they BS spammed from the beginning. Mergh.

I know what you're saying. I hate when this happens, because they always seem like they just want a fair dual, but actually just want to win. Bowing is a sign that you are willing to play fair, and this should act as a guarantee. It's a pity that some people cant help themselves, and always resort to fishing. One suggestion though; if you want a fair fight, you're probably better off with a RSS, instead of the constant gamble which is the red eye orb.

Well dutchy you obviously have different rules of dueling to them. To them BS may be perfectly fine in a duel. You just don't know how they think

Fact is when they're losing they'll try a tactic that can even the game up. To the guys you're playing it's BS. To other people it could be trying to get a parry, or using magic, or a different weapon. They just happen to choose to BS, that's all. There's no bad intentions, it's just a tactic

But in a duel when you start turtling and fishing for roll backstabs that shows that you really want to win and not improve at the game. Of course there are those who backstab fish from the start and still call it dueling.
Really Dutchy, unless you are in a fight club or against someone you know expect turtling and BS fishing and try to counter it, eventually you will get to the point where the tactic no longer bothers you.

The beginning of the fight is where the biggest risks can be, and often are, taken. These are the gambits, like putting all those points in Faith to use with a buff, or try some risky attacks to get those big numbers above your opponent's head. It's understandable that the start has these plays since you can generally afford for things to mess up with enough HP to keep on slugging. Depending on the performance at the start, which generally characterize a fight, the end game begins. This is where tried and true tactics are used to try to get a win. Whether or not it is you, or your opponent at low health, the end is normally defined as try to squeak out the most damage from the smallest amount of health possible.

Most people really despise the end game, and the tactics it brings. However, it should be readily understandable why people do the things they do; people simply can't take as large a risk without that final, most valuable hit point being risked. People that just try their most basic tactics in the beginning can often find themselves at the losing end of a fight because their opponent pulled off their risky attacks and then have to try to pull of their own, with greater risk than if they tried it earlier, to even the playing field. Unless one has absolute confidence in one tactic, this two staged way is the general approach to a fight.

Personally, i like to prepare my builds for those situations. Poison arrows, fire surge, or anything that can deal safe chip damage.

I'm more puzzled by the players who swap to a spear on low health. They are obviously better with the spear so why not make a spear build instead?

Perhaps because players who play like that get bored with the poke and roll back tactic.
Or they are not better with a spear but find them much easier to play with,.

The spear is generally good for ending fights. It's got safety on it's side. And it's lowish damage is still plenty for a wounded opponent but mostly it's that the manner in which people use spears just lends itself well to how you'd want to play if both you and your opponent where low on health. Also some of the more popular spears are excellent sources of chip damage. MLBH, Demon's, DSS all will chip through a shield well enough that it puts extra pressure on your opponent, as if they don't start getting damage done to you, they'll just lose without a fight. This causes them to play more aggressive and become more prone to mistakes. Creating a kind of snowball effect.

It's actually this snowball effect that I personally feel gives spears their reputation, as once you fall behind against a spear they have you right where they want you.

To be honest, when I'm questing, I'll do anything I can to win if an invader invades. This is especially true if I'm losing. This is not a duel. The invader is interrupting my quest. They are not welcome in my world, and I'll treat them as such.

As I've said - invasions are not duels. I don't expect the same rules of engagement.

Agree with this, I've had countless invasions where both I and the opponents have bowed and generally faced me in an "honourable" way only to break out the estus or bs fishing at certain points.

It doesn't bother me, you have to expect it as a DW and I always have a nice arsenal of pyromancies ready to spam if my opponent merits it.

I'd really only call it **** if you summon them for a duel, they bow and go for a whole duel till they start lose, then instantly rush off to heal among some mobs. That's the only time it can get really annoying.

I will now reference the Princess Bride:

Inigo: I admit it, you are better than me
Wesley: Oh, then why are you smiling?
I: Because I know something that you do not know
W: And what's that?
I: I.....am not left handed!


Inigo starts losing and changes to a tactic he knows has a better chance of success. To have more fun with the fight he started off with a weaker tactic.

Take from that what you will

@Tolvo - I agree. Summoning reds is vastly different than random invasions (when questing).

Dutchy wrote:I have been randomly invading, and I know not to expect them to play "fair". But what's irking me is when they bow, and you are having a nice even duel until they are about 30% health, and then the BS spamming begins. I can counter it, but I still usually die from a backstab. Why even try to duel if you go into knowing that you'll win? (I use this sentence loosely) I wouldn't care so much if they BS spammed from the beginning. Mergh.

It's funny you say that cuz I've run into them alot and most recently I ran into one of our forum members who did the eact same thing the minute she/he started to lose. it was really frustrating because it was a great duel and then when they started losing.....BANG!!! BS spamming. It was frustrating and it happens alot but it really surprised me that this forum person did that. I won't say the name but they know who they are

roanispe wrote:The beginning of the fight is where the biggest risks can be, and often are, taken. These are the gambits, like putting all those points in Faith to use with a buff, or try some risky attacks to get those big numbers above your opponent's head. It's understandable that the start has these plays since you can generally afford for things to mess up with enough HP to keep on slugging. Depending on the performance at the start, which generally characterize a fight, the end game begins. This is where tried and true tactics are used to try to get a win. Whether or not it is you, or your opponent at low health, the end is normally defined as try to squeak out the most damage from the smallest amount of health possible.

Most people really despise the end game, and the tactics it brings. However, it should be readily understandable why people do the things they do; people simply can't take as large a risk without that final, most valuable hit point being risked. People that just try their most basic tactics in the beginning can often find themselves at the losing end of a fight because their opponent pulled off their risky attacks and then have to try to pull of their own, with greater risk than if they tried it earlier, to even the playing field. Unless one has absolute confidence in one tactic, this two staged way is the general approach to a fight.

Well said, Roan. +1

reim0027 wrote:To be honest, when I'm questing, I'll do anything I can to win if an invader invades. This is especially true if I'm losing. This is not a duel. The invader is interrupting my quest. They are not welcome in my world, and I'll treat them as such.

As I've said - invasions are not duels. I don't expect the same rules of engagement.

Nuff said.

Also, about spears...because they're just effin boring. I hate using them. Partizan is kinda fun. I guess shooting lightning with the DSS is kinda fun too.

you have a rant about BS fishing?
find a good anti fisher wep (handaxe, QFS, everything with fast swings from side to side), keep you back free, find the distance your wep works best and try to keep it....etc.

I also go 2h high aggressiv in the start of a battle, when i'm down to 1/2 of my hp i change tactic to 1h sword turteling in most cases. Making the opponent nervous with some fishing is also a tactic i do in 2nd half of my hp.
Even in our FC we do that - why not it's common and u have to get used to it. For a chain BS i send a short excuse in the chat, cause if it happens, it wasn't inteded, just wanted to land the one free hit while getting up.

I though u have a rant against the hosts, who start to estus after bowing - that happens a lot to me in the last time, even when i get summoned over a rss in burg. I'm so pissed bout that, that i ALWAYS throw llyods all the time, even if i get summoned via rss and the host bows....but don't forgett to send a short excuse to the host afterwards, he may be miffed about your distrust.

Even in a duel, I just don't understand how a BS = dishonorable. I really really wish someone would explain this one to me. Yeah, understand it can get boring fighting vs a bs fisher... but that can be said about other tactics as well. IMO boring does not equal dishonorable.

I don't fish for bs all game but if I see an opportunity I'll take without hesitation. I don't see what's wrong with that at all.

Hey Digitalinsanity,

What you are trying to do, is be a voice of reason. Most people go into PVP with a list of rules a mile long, then complain when every random they run across doesn't fully abide by everyone of the rules. I.E. Digi, there is absolutely nothing wrong with backstabbing someone in PVP (unless both players agree before the fight not to).

Do not expect any sort of "honourable" behavior when invading, or being invaded.
Bow does not mean a duel. Summoning for PvP does.

Only thing bowing does, is to make you lower your guard, for one purpose, or another.

I like when the opponent starts fishing at low health, it's an easy win for me. Far more annoying are the people who pull out a bow or spear and roll turtle for the rest of the fight, especially with RtsR. Even in an RSS duel I will move the fight to a place that gives me the geographical advantage if the opponent insists on using a tactic with very little chance of me punishing it.

reim0027 wrote:To be honest, when I'm questing, I'll do anything I can to win if an invader invades. This is especially true if I'm losing. This is not a duel. The invader is interrupting my quest. They are not welcome in my world, and I'll treat them as such.

As I've said - invasions are not duels. I don't expect the same rules of engagement.

I feel the same way bro. That's why I don't get why people get angry if a player is using a glitched toon. If i'm using a toon made with MM and get invaded, how is that cheating and why should I play offline. I don't invade. So, if people invade me, how does it ruin their game experience by invading someone who, (in reality), hates pvp. And before anyone says anything, if I was a glitcher who invaded, then I would understand why they would be mad.
BTW +1 for that
Sentiel and Digi are right. There are no rules in invading. A bs fisher doesn't abide by hosts rules since it's an invasion NOT a set up pvp match.

twigsterxd wrote:
I feel the same way bro. That's why I don't get why people get angry if a player is using a glitched toon. If i'm using a toon made with MM and get invaded, how is that cheating and why should I play offline. I don't invade. So, if people invade me, how does it ruin their game experience by invading someone who, (in reality), hates pvp. And before anyone says anything, if I was a glitcher who invaded, then I would understand why they would be mad.
BTW +1 for that
Sentiel and Digi are right. There are no rules in invading. A bs fisher doesn't abide by hosts rules since it's an invasion NOT a set up pvp match.

That's entering a completely different discussion. BS = included game mechanic, glitching is not. In my opinion invading with a glitched toon is no different than being invaded with a glitched toon. It's a multi player game... regardless if you enjoy that aspect of multi player or not.

On a side note I have nothing against anyone who uses mm or w/e. Some people are just no responsible enough with such great power.