What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

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    CappuccinoJak
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:19 pm

    Animaaal wrote:On topic: I want voice chat soooooooooooooooooooooo bad.

    no way! or if it IS implemented, i'd like an option to turn it off. sure there are time i'd like to talk to people, like when i'm sunbro-ing, but i would not want to hear anything.

    i think not being able to properly communicate adds quite a bit to the game. it makes the game "tougher" since you can't just tell a host how to kill a boss/enemy without leaving yourself open for a while. idk, that's my 2sense
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:57 pm

    After having spent hours and hours actually having practiced with this myself (not in the context of a game, actually doing this) and having it done to me, I assure you that strafing and backstabbing is very realistic and is and was present in combat involving swords, spears and shields. I've spent a lot of time practicing with various weapons and the version I'm currently the most effective with is a kite/tower shield and an arming sword; so many of my losses in mock combat have been from exactly what you're complaining about not being realistic. An attack from the side is just about the same thing as from the back; it's being attacked from an angle that the target is not in a position that he or she can react to in time and thus is basically helpless. That's what backstabs represent in Dark Souls.

    Also, using the word 'should' is completely opinionated and in that context suggests that others are somehow wrong if his or her opinion is incorrect. Please look at that.
    Back on pivot-backstabbing; pivot BSing has nothing to do with lag. Pivot-bsing is where a player runs at another player and begins to strafe to the side while still running towards him or her at a certain speed and distance from the other player. The result is that he or she runs nearly straight at the player and strafes while still sprinting just barely around the back of the player. This mechanic, even if lag were not at all present and the backstab window angle was extremely narrow, will still work because pivot-BSing often puts the charging player directly behind the other player. This has nothing to do with the backstab mechanic-it's from the lock-on and strafing mechanics combined with the momentum from sprinting. The only way to remove it is to either remove the lock-on feature or backstab features altogether.

    Lastly: ask people around here and you'll find how much I'm for realism. The realism is one of the things that first drew me to the Souls games. At a certain point, though, game features do have to be a higher priority over realism because
    1) To be absolutely realistic the game will have to create the world accurately down to subatomic particles at least, and no game is anywhere near that yet (I doubt any engine or server that exists will be capable of handling that much data for an entire game for many years)
    2) It's a game, meaning that at a certain point realism has to be sacrificed for mechanics, simplicity, and even fun. The game is not going to measure out all the exact centimeters and weight distributions and stances, let alone the placement of vital organs and bodily functions.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:42 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:...I never put words in your mouth...

    When you say, "so you're saying"...that is exactly what you're doing.

    It was a question Animaaal. Also, notice your statement is putting words in my mouth... you're telling me what I said. I told you I had zero reason to think you thought that until you wrote that you couldn't disagree more with my statement that doing anything that takes skill to win does not necessarily mean it's deserved. I was referring specifically to exploitation of game mechanics/lag, hacking & cheating and you said you totally disagreed with that. As I said I was surprised you could/would disagree so; I asked a question. As I said; I was very careful NOT to put words in your mouth.

    However, saying I don't understand my own argument IS an insult. Be real, man; you wouldn't phrase it like that if you weren't trying to dig at me. If I cared though, the real insult would be trying to tell me that the 'fact' that I'm too stupid to understand my own words is not an insult. Once again, your condescension is duly noted.

    I don't know what your hangup on being able to do unlocked back-stabs is. Or why you seem to think that I think that's automatically cheating. I said it before and will reiterate: it does not matter whether the attacking player is locked-on or not... back-stabs should be a punishment to an opening left by the other player. If the victim is unlocked than he should be potentially open to getting back-stabbed because he is not oriented toward his opponent. A 3rd party should be able to BS someone who is locked onto another player. And anytime a player is performing any type of action, he should be vulnerable during and immediately following said action. What's wrong with this?

    As I recall; you or someone else brought up unlocked back-stabs as another legit back-stab and someone (I believe you) said if they land an unlocked BS, it was because there opponent made a mistake. This would either mean that it's impossible to do without a legit mistake (it's not), my speed advantage is skill not lag, or screw him he's got lag, I deserve to win -- Yay me! cheers I disagree with any of those three. I said that it shouldn't matter whether the attacking player is locked or not as long as the defending player is locked he should not get back-stabbed without having left an opening. I noted that some players play unlocked to make it easier to get to their opponents back, as a way of intentionally exploiting lag. Ok; maybe not cheating, but definitely total bush league. There's nothing inherently wrong with playing unlocked and I never said that. I made the mistake of admitting that I rarely play pvp unlocked; which for some crazy reason has blown a hole in my entire argument in your eyes. The point is; whether you're locked or not has nothing to do with whether your opponent leaves his back open to you. While it might make you feel good about yourself and your argument to insult my play; it has nothing to do with my argument. And my argument has nothing to do with whether or not a player trying to execute a BS is locked. So it just doesn't matter.

    My argument concerns locked play. Why should you be able to run around me before I can react while I'm locked (whether or not you're locked) if not for lag? How's your understanding of locked play? Do you understand that locking on means that you're facing them? Running a half circle around someone for a back-stab is impossible without lag. I cannot do anything to stop a guy from front-stabbing me. There should not need to be a defense! The only real defense is a better connection. You are never going to be able to run around an opponent who is locked onto you without lag. You have to circle the Silver Knights forever if you want to fish them for a BS unless you do it before there ready or run by them as they attack. That's why I parry them now, because you have to BS them before they're ready or wait for them to attack anyway. Eventually you can get it, sure... but a human wouldn't allow it -- it's lag, sorry. Yep, the problem's lag, we're always gunna have it... but why not prevent it from effecting a certain part of gameplay -- a literally critical part?

    Ok, Animaaal -- you took a crack at the question (kind of -- 'no, but...I'd do some other kinda ninja crap he couldn't stop'*), but I'm actually taking about Dark Souls gameplay itself. I suppose real life, as well -- but dark souls more so... do you think you're characters are automatically faster, or do you believe people are just standing still as you run around them? If there were no lag, I'm certain I couldn't get back-stabbed while locked in that fashion if I tried!!

    And Amaro57 is dead right in everything he's said. Again, Amaro thank you sir! Not that you're doing me any favor. It's my assumption that you just find this idea to be quite logical and support logic. But, it's good to know that I'm making as much sense as I thought I was to someone else, too. I must acknowledge some support in the 'darksouls w/o backstabs' thread, however.

    *that's closer to putting words in your mouth -- but, in fairness, it sounds as if you're saying your just going to find a way to run up on a guy with heavy armor, find its weak spot, attack it and kill him before he can react.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:21 am

    Again, as a person who's actually done this I promise you that the strafe-and-backstab method that you're attacking is completely realistic. Running circles around someone who's just standing there with a shield isn't actually that hard for someone who knows what he or she is doing. Unless in a phalanx or in the frontline skirmishes of full-on warfare, a person who just stands there with his or her shield is basically just waiting for the other person to attack-a sitting duck.
    Critical hits are not a punishment mechanic. They are a major part of offensive combat, both in real and Dark Souls combat. It can't be made realistically as a punishment mechanic because feinting can't be implemented without completely remaking and altering the gameplay system because feinting depends on balance, stance, outstretched arms and legs and speed to a degree and depth that the game system just isn't designed to be able to account for. Critical hits aren't punishment attacks-it's what an attacker goes for because that's what kills.
    And, again, what you're complaining about has nothing at all to do with the backstab mechanic itself-it's the strafing system combined with backstabs. Being able to circle around another player will still be an advantage even without backstabs because this will allow players to attack them from behind.
    With the way the lock-on and target system works, the defending player can only follow the attacking and strafing player so fast. The only way to prevent this quick-strafing is to make the defending player instantly auto-turn to face the other player which will make it impossible to get behind the other player's shield. This is both unrealistic and will give turtles a major advantage over any other strategies. It takes a moment for a defender to turn and follow the other player, both in-game and in actual combat. The only way to defend from this for the defending player to predict where the other player is going to attack them from and turn to defend from there ahead of time-which means that the other player isn't 'locked-on' and won't follow the strafing player.

    I must acknowledge some support in the 'darksouls w/o backstabs' thread, however.
    You haven't been saying that backstabs are altogether a problem-at least not directly. If you're talking about removing all backstabs, then please just say so. And if that is what you're saying-backstabs represent something entirely realistic and generally balanced without lag. This game is designed to have a large number of backstab kills-that's a fundamental idea of these games.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:35 am

    Dear Lord my eyes The Eye The Eye


    There are a few things I would love to see regarding the online play in Dark Souls 2.


    1) I would love to have voice chat.

    - I know I and countless others have spent hours typing/texting to random people trying to share information with pvpers for one reason or another.

    Voice chat would solve this. If you don’t want it turn it off. I personally would like to know if I’m talking to an ingrate that is more argumentative than I’m willing to deal with, or just some 12 year old kid trying to talk smack. Either way, it would save me time in this respect and help the community grow.

    I know a lot of people don’t want this, that is why it should only be an option and not needed for game play. I skype with buddies now, but I’d like to save time from talking to trolls and people I would normally not associate with.

    I black crystal out on gankers now, I’m pretty sure I could tell it in their voices. Especially if it was squeaky. :roll:

    2) I want the exact same type/style of play for pvp (and pve I guess) that I have come to enjoy and expect from a souls game...with a little refinement.

    -I don’t want backstabs nerfed. Just about everyone who has truly given themselves to this game loooooooooooooves ❤ backstabs the way they are (almost). The things I want/do not want implemented regarding backstabs and online play are:

    -Almost any form of lock-on backstab immunity.
    -I wouldn’t mind a smaller hitbox, as long as it wasn’t a nonexistent hitbox. The one we have now is almost perfect, imo, and only seems large because of lag.
    -A breakout move for backstabs cheers (only if done right, right being relative to research and community agreement).

    In addition, I would like dead angles to be maybe less frequent or more realistic. I’m looking at you Murakumo and WoG dead angles.

    Other than those major things, I want it to stay as unrealistic and soulish as possible. I don’t want an over exaggeration of realism (unless by someone with experience, maybe Acarnatia or forumpirate off the top of my head), and I don’t want a complete rework of the backstab mechanic.

    3) A much better tutorial

    -I don’t need it, but it’s obvious some people need it. I would like it if the players had a better sense of what they’re getting into. Some players can’t handle the aggressive nature of the soul series gameplay. Then some of them turn around and troll threads and other players for a mechanic they don’t understand. Hopefully, this would either help that player get better, or give up and not waste precious thread space in certain forums arguing with people trying to help other players.

    I think these particular 3 things would greatly affect the online aspect of Dark Souls 2 and to infinity and beyond.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:49 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : edit/splling/shtuff)
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:41 am

    too many walls of text! gonna have to give 'em a good read between summons lol.

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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:44 am

    4) Bounties.

    I want to invade specific people for one reason or another. I'd give 5 slabs for a dude I know right now. You couldn't have say more than 3 at a time or something, or maybe you could I dont know...some people deserve it.

    Regardless, there's got to be a way they could implement something.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:03 am

    Acarnatia wrote:
    I must acknowledge some support in the 'darksouls w/o backstabs' thread, however.
    You haven't been saying that backstabs are altogether a problem-at least not directly. If you're talking about removing all backstabs, then please just say so. And if that is what you're saying-backstabs represent something entirely realistic and generally balanced without lag. This game is designed to have a large number of backstab kills-that's a fundamental idea of these games.

    No, that's just the name of the thread.

    As for the rest of your post; is there any video of this? I'm not saying your full of crap -- I just would like to see how that could happen and I figure it would be frickin' hilarious! Has this happened to anyone approaching competent? I honestly believe it's moot as it pertains to Dark Souls, however, because the way the game works I do not believe it's possible to get to someone's back if they're locked onto you without doing a lap or more around them -- unless there's lag (and that's if they stay still and don't do anything). Try it versus an NPC, not sneaking up on them or countering... aggro them and then let them get into a defensive posture and then BS fish them. So; if the 'speed 180 BS' is added to Dark Souls II, then I believe there should be tactics added to defend and counter it. I think that's a bad idea, however, because it leaves a lot of room for lag and the exploitation thereof. The faster the characters move the more magnified the effect of lag will be.

    I mean; I'm not fat-rolling here... I have mid-roll at the heaviest -- this stuff happens when I'm fast rolling, too. And it's not like the guy is circling forever and I don't do anything about it. I'm talking about when it's like the guy just hits the BS button in front of me and BAM! I don't think there's any way it happens that quick in real life and I know it doesn't happen in the game without lag. Again, I realize it's lag, but I think if they make it harder (slower) to get all the way around to someone's back it will eliminate a major area of lag exploitation.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:04 am

    Animaaal wrote:4) Bounties.

    I want to invade specific people for one reason or another. I'd give 5 slabs for a dude I know right now. You couldn't have say more than 3 at a time or something, or maybe you could I dont know...some people deserve it.

    Regardless, there's got to be a way they could implement something.

    Now that, my friend is a grand idea! Bravo! cheers


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:26 pm

    Acarnatia wrote:...This game is designed to have a large number of backstab kills-that's a fundamental idea of these games...

    +1. Changing this aspect of the soul series would make Dark Souls 2 a different game altogether. If backstabs become a secondary or even tertiary way of playing, it would just become another Dragon Age. Who wants that?...not that Dragon Age was a bad game.

    The souls series has always made players sad a little before being able to cheers a little.

    Dark Souls is not for the faint of heart. :evil: ***edit***It just takes practice.



    Last edited by Animaaal on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:27 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : addition)
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by WandererReece on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:33 pm

    The tutorial idea depends on what you mean. If your talking about something like the Demons' Souls tutorial (You're invulnerable untill the boss.), then I would disagree. If you mean more helpful messages explaining every character action, then I would agree. I didn't know I could slide down a ladder until NG+.

    The Bounty Hunter idea is interesting. I'm not sure how the payment would work, but it's a neat idea. It would probably be a modified version of the Darkmoon Covenent.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:46 pm

    WandererReece wrote:The tutorial idea depends on what you mean. If your talking about something like the Demons' Souls tutorial (You're invulnerable untill the boss.), then I would disagree. If you mean more helpful messages explaining every character action, then I would agree. I didn't know I could slide down a ladder until NG+.

    The Bounty Hunter idea is interesting. I'm not sure how the payment would work, but it's a neat idea. It would probably be a modified version of the Darkmoon Covenent.

    I dont know dude, maybe a tutorial aint even the way to go. Maybe a training ground/tutorial so to speak. Sort of like if you could've sparred with the Crestfallen Warrior over and over again in Firelink for the sole sake of honing your skills. You can sort of do that now I guess. Something a little more intentional I guess?

    As far as bounties...I dont know about the specifics, I never gave it much thought until last night tbh.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by WandererReece on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:49 pm

    Animaaal wrote:As far as bounties...I dont know about the specifics, I never gave it much thought until last night tbh.

    It could be like the bounty system in Sins of a Solar Empire. You place a certain amount of credits on another empire. The credits are automaticly deducted from you. Later the pirates or another empire attacks the "wanted" empire and gets the credits.

    I think that system could work in this game after a couple small modifications.


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