What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Acarnatia on Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:56 am

    Using a 'rare item' is bound to backfire. Glitches, hacking and item duplication is bound to make those available in plenty.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Frank_White on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:44 am

    Noob-of-Artorias wrote:A playercard that keeps track of your K/D ratio...jk

    An in game rating system might be nice, like if someone consistantly ganks or cheats, you can vote him down, only, unlike indictments, this makes it LESS likely for him to get PVP.

    I'd rather have they just permaban everyone who hacks. But remember, apart from hacking, there is nothing forbidden in Dark Souls. You're allowed to be cruel and unforgiving, in fact, encouraged by FromSoft to do so.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Frank_White on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:57 am


    I think there's a simpler way to fix the problem. They should put in an invasion switch. If it's on, then the game behaves normally. If it's off, then you can't be invaded or invade. The switch will only work in NG. It will be stuck on in NG+ and higher. Although this idea also has problems.

    Only if turning the switch off will also prevent you from summoning white phantoms. Else it will be really easy if you can co-op but not get invaded...
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by WandererReece on Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:28 am

    Frank_White wrote:

    I think there's a simpler way to fix the problem. They should put in an invasion switch. If it's on, then the game behaves normally. If it's off, then you can't be invaded or invade. The switch will only work in NG. It will be stuck on in NG+ and higher. Although this idea also has problems.

    Only if turning the switch off will also prevent you from summoning white phantoms. Else it will be really easy if you can co-op but not get invaded...

    That's the only problem. I think this could make it better:

    Turning off invasions also limit the amount of summons to one. Computer invaders can't be turned off. Invasions are stuck on after obtaining the lordvessal in Anor Londo in NG.

    That would make it a little less OP, but still useful to newbies that get invaded by OP invaders that are stronger then some bosses.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Frank_White on Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:21 pm

    WandererReece wrote:
    Frank_White wrote:

    I think there's a simpler way to fix the problem. They should put in an invasion switch. If it's on, then the game behaves normally. If it's off, then you can't be invaded or invade. The switch will only work in NG. It will be stuck on in NG+ and higher. Although this idea also has problems.

    Only if turning the switch off will also prevent you from summoning white phantoms. Else it will be really easy if you can co-op but not get invaded...

    That's the only problem. I think this could make it better:

    Turning off invasions also limit the amount of summons to one. Computer invaders can't be turned off. Invasions are stuck on after obtaining the lordvessal in Anor Londo in NG.

    That would make it a little less OP, but still useful to newbies that get invaded by OP invaders that are stronger then some bosses.

    Nah, these games are not meant to be easy. If someone doesn't want to go through the trouble of getting invaded, then they can play hollow or just not play Souls games at all. Obviously these games are not their thing then.

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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:23 pm

    Just put soul level restrictions on gear so you can't take a +5 chaos weapon at soul 15 to the parish wearing a full set of +5 Dingy.

    I dont know how to comprehaend a souls game with no invasions. I personally dont care about op'd invaders entering my games....Demon's Souls bent over over and broke me in loooooooooong ago.

    However, I can see how this would be frustrating to someone new to the series, and maybe cause them to pick up a different game before giving Dark/Demon's Souls a chance.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:02 am

    Bloodstains have been mentioned twice; I agree they were much better and more visible in Demon's. Also the souls signs and messages were much better, I thought in Demon's. I think it's the black lettering; they should use white and the appropriate color. The normal summon signs look bland and the sunbro sign's look brownish/orange instead of gold like the Xanthous set (that would look so bad@$$). The messages are just eyesores -- nothing else to say. :Baal01:

    I'd like to see different classes of covenants; keep pvp coventants, but also have guilds for melee, magic, etc. Maybe even break up melee into different types of weapons. Maybe just strength and dexterity or further into weapon size or weapon type. Perhaps even break online covenants into a co-op class & pvp class. This way you can have more freedom with your build and your online play. You won't be forced into a faith build if you want to be a darkmoon or sunbro. You could have a specific covenant for your kind of melee, casting, co-op & pvp. When you rank up in the melee guild, you could unlock weapons, upgrades & unique attacks. That's something I'd love to see: an option to equip certain types of attacks. Of course, thrusting with a zweihaender would be ridiculous, but why can't I thrust a flamberge if I want (the R2 is the same as the R1, just slower Well What is it )? Also; when 2-handing a weapon you should be able to parry, but blocking should be way less effective. Armor could also be unlocked and upgraded the same way. Maybe you could customize your armor's appearance -- at lest the color.

    Finally, and most importantly... they should take a good, long, hard look at just getting rid of backstabs all together. Most pvp backstabs are complete crap. Giving someone a damage bonus & an invisibility animation seems unnecessary. As far as legitimate "punish" backstabs: isn't having your back exposed penalty enough?


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:10 am

    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:Finally, and most importantly... they should take a good, long, hard look at just getting rid of backstabs all together. Most pvp backstabs are complete crap. Giving someone a damage bonus & an invisibility animation seems unnecessary. As far as legitimate "punish" backstabs: isn't having your back exposed penalty enough?

    i'm not entirely sure if you've ever imagined DaS without backstabs...i think i'll just leave it at that instead of breaking into an argument that's been done way before this.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:47 am

    Hosts only being allowed to summon 1 helper phantom at a time. For a lot of reasons, but tge big one being that even 1 makesthe entire game easy, 2 is just laughable.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:44 pm

    CappuccinoJak wrote:
    Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:Finally, and most importantly... they should take a good, long, hard look at just getting rid of backstabs all together. Most pvp backstabs are complete crap. Giving someone a damage bonus & an invisibility animation seems unnecessary. As far as legitimate "punish" backstabs: isn't having your back exposed penalty enough?

    i'm not entirely sure if you've ever imagined DaS without backstabs...i think i'll just leave it at that instead of breaking into an argument that's been done way before this.

    I don't know why you wrote a 2-line post saying you don't know what I'm imagining (which is both obvious and vague -- what's your point?) then said you weren't going to say anymore... sorry, you really didn't say anything. If you're worried about preventing people from healing and punish back-stabs; make it so any time you swing, cast, heal or buff you're vulnerable to getting back-stabbed. Maybe if you roll unlocked, too. I think if you roll locked you should get up facing your target; everything else is oriented on your target. Make back-stabs a type of counter like a riposte.

    As far as my dark souls imagination... I'm imagining DkSII, not Dark Souls. Second; I'm thinking online only, but you don't necessarily need it for pve either. The one thing I didn't touch on was the servers. I have mixed feelings, because I'm on the west coast and keep weird hours and I've done a lot of co-op with the people in Asia & Australia when everyone else is asleep or at work. But the pvp is atrocious. Just last night, I got back-stabbed face-to-face from the edge of my claymore's range 4 or 5 times in 2 matches plus another lag-stab after a bow (and I don't bow unless I'm sure I can't get back-stabbed -- got me anyway :evil: ). The point is they need to get rid of back-stabs or at least give people the option to not connect w/people on the other side of the world for pvp. Or they could just fix the lag! haha

    Concerning servers; having a way to connect easily with friends should be an obvious change. A way to set a sign for a friend only would be sweet. They don't have to make a multiplayer lobby; they can keep the souls style online mode. Perhaps you could setup server settings for co-op and pvp seperately so you can get all the co-op you want without dealing with laggy connection from across the world in pvp.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:52 pm

    Then your problem is lag, not backstabs and so that should be the focus unless every feasible option has been considered/implimented to fix it (it hasn't btw.)

    Just search backstabs in the bar. You'll get a ton of whining, but there are intelligent discussions in there that explain the necessity of the mechanic.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:25 pm

    Ya, your problem (and all of ours) is lag. The :pirat: is right, as he is most of the time.


    Now try to imagine Dark Souls/2 with.........breakouts!!! cheers

    And also saying, "try to imagine a souls game without backstabs is actually saying a lot."

    ***EDIT*** the thought of it kinda makes me :Baal01:
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:50 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Ya, your problem (and all of ours) is lag. The :pirat: is right, as he is always because he is just to awesome to ever be wrong.


    Now try to imagine Dark Souls/2 with.........breakouts!!! cheers

    And also saying, "try to imagine a souls game without backstabs is actually saying a lot."

    ***EDIT*** the thought of it kinda makes me
    Fixed that for you. I'll forgive your typo, I'm generous like that. If it happens again though, I'll be obligated to sic my armada on you. Can't be seen playing favorites.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:09 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Hosts only being allowed to summon 1 helper phantom at a time. For a lot of reasons, but tge big one being that even 1 makesthe entire game easy, 2 is just laughable.

    That's true, but it's kinda fun to do jolly co-op w/2 others. Maybe they could make enemies tougher and add black phantoms for each player you summon. Make having 2 phantoms like being in pure black tendency from Demon's (don't bring back world tendency for DkSII though, please).


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:18 pm

    lol! ...wait.....we should be afraid.......be VERY afraid.... :shock:
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    They're on the loose!!! Can no one stop them?!?!?!?! Covenant - The Circle of Jerks


    ***EDIT***
    Oh ya on topic...2 phantoms are sometimes overkill, at least for semi-experienced to experienced players. Better AI could fix it I suppose.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:48 pm

    Well, obviously fixing the lag would be ideal. I did mention that, but laughed it off because if it hasn't been fixed yet I assume it's always going to be a problem. In my first post I said 'take a good, long, hard look' at getting rid of back-stabs, not 'they gotsta go!'. I think it would be clear that I have thought about it and recognize their value and merit. Hence my phrasing and later suggestion that they be used only for punishment. Is anyone actually arguing for lagstabs?

    The only thing I didn't address is people with light builds. Well, I have no interest in keeping the lagstab fish builds viable, so that's out. Having a light build means sacrificing defense for mobility and brute strength for attack speed as far as equipment goes and probably int or faith as far as stats go. Dex scales AR, so dex builds can pack a nice punch and very quick often building bleed, too -- they don't need back-stabs. You can still counter with parries or regular attacks after a large weapon misses. Also, light builds can still use magic and buffs. I used to love to fight tanks with my 0 poise fast roller. So, I just don't think light builds are totally dependent on back-stabs and I don't think they should be.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by WandererReece on Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:59 pm

    Frank_White wrote:
    WandererReece wrote:That's the only problem. I think this could make it better:

    Turning off invasions also limit the amount of summons to one. Computer invaders can't be turned off. Invasions are stuck on after obtaining the lordvessal in Anor Londo in NG.

    That would make it a little less OP, but still useful to newbies that get invaded by OP invaders that are stronger then some bosses.

    Nah, these games are not meant to be easy. If someone doesn't want to go through the trouble of getting invaded, then they can play hollow or just not play Souls games at all. Obviously these games are not their thing then.

    Yes, the same problem is still there. I guess the only way to properly remove the OP low level greifers is to remove their weapons of choice, .


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by CappuccinoJak on Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:18 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Hosts only being allowed to summon 1 helper phantom at a time. For a lot of reasons, but tge big one being that even 1 makesthe entire game easy, 2 is just laughable.

    I. LOVE. THIS. IDEA.

    i didn't summon anyone besides NPCs on my first playthrough since i didn't have xbox live gold at that time. and looking back now, i'm glad i couldn't summon people. i vividly remember O&S stomping me into the ground my first run, but now that i'm sunbro-ing, O&S aren't even a problem anymore with two phantoms.


    You can still counter with parries or regular attacks after a large weapon misses. Also, light builds can still use magic and buffs. I used to love to fight tanks with my 0 poise fast roller. So, I just don't think light builds are totally dependent on back-stabs and I don't think they should be.
    parrying online is nuts due to the lag, if lag wasn't an issue i'd 100% agree with you.

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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by ublug on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:24 pm

    CappuccinoJak wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:Hosts only being allowed to summon 1 helper phantom at a time. For a lot of reasons, but tge big one being that even 1 makesthe entire game easy, 2 is just laughable.

    I. LOVE. THIS. IDEA.

    i didn't summon anyone besides NPCs on my first playthrough since i didn't have xbox live gold at that time. and looking back now, i'm glad i couldn't summon people. i vividly remember O&S stomping me into the ground my first run, but now that i'm sunbro-ing, O&S aren't even a problem anymore with two phantoms.
    I have been thinking about this as well, but questing is not as fun with only one phantom. Instead, what if additional enemies spawn when you bring one phantom, and if you bring two then black phantom versions spawn as well (like being gravelorded). The boss is harder with phantoms, so why not the rest of the level?
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by WandererReece on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:27 pm

    ublug wrote:The boss is harder with phantoms, so why not the rest of the level?

    What? I hope that was a typo.

    I agree. The bosses and levels become a little too easy when phantoms are summoned.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:52 pm

    Actually, lightly armored units are actually reliant on critical hits as an offensive tactic in Medieval and Renaissance combat. A large amount of kills are achieved by feinting, backstabbing and what is in this game parry and riposting-killing in a single or two critical blows, not hacking away at nonvital body parts.
    Most of the problems regarding backstabbing aren't from the mechanic itself; they're from the lag that alters the mechanic in pvp and creates some bizarre, mass-exploited glitches. The only significant problem with the mechanic itself (in my opinion) is how wide the backstab window is.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:25 pm

    WandererReece wrote:
    ublug wrote:The boss is harder with phantoms, so why not the rest of the level?

    What? I hope that was a typo.

    I agree. The bosses and levels become a little too easy when phantoms are summoned.

    I thought bosses got a boost to defense and health and etc when you had a phantom with you. Not so sure about it now. I think that’s what ublug meant reece.

    Acarnatia wrote:Actually, lightly armored units are actually reliant on critical hits as an offensive tactic in Medieval and Renaissance combat. A large amount of kills are achieved by feinting, backstabbing and what is in this game parry and riposting-killing in a single or two critical blows, not hacking away at nonvital body parts.
    Most of the problems regarding backstabbing aren't from the mechanic itself; they're from the lag that alters the mechanic in pvp and creates some bizarre, mass-exploited glitches. The only significant problem with the mechanic itself (in my opinion) is how wide the backstab window is.

    I will never, or at the very least, try to resist with all the fibers in body the “in real life” argument in Dark Souls. No application of basic physics would be stupid yes, but……dragons……..zombies………

    Also its nice to see more and more people understand the real problem with backstabs. Lag. Dirty nasty and makes you feel like you suffer from a visual stigma lag. Its not the window imo. It’s the tail. The tail is what makes the window seem bigger than it is, and is solely responsible for the vacuum stab epidemic.

    A smaller hitbox combined with dedicated servers will marginally help the problem, but not fix it.

    In the next game, I’d like to see a “bullet time breakout”. An average player would have say a 20% success rate, but a veteran player would have a 30-35% success rate for instance.

    It doesn’t address the root of the problem…”lag”…but it does reduce everyones backstab experience by apprx 20-30%.

    What slow weapon wouldn’t want this? And also…ugh….IRL, you can most definitely avoid a backstab. Unless the person actually rolled like Shawn Johnson, turned 180*in a matter of jiffys,retained their physical strength even though they either just traveled through time and/or traveled faster than the speed of light, and backstabbed you with enough force that somehow would cause more physical harm than an axe to the face would.

    So yes in that case I dont see myself avoiding it and Id be completely fine with it. But they'd have to be a female gymnist...I wont budge on that.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:33 am

    It's not an actual stab in the back I'm talking about-I'm talking about an attack to a vital spot, such as an organ in a the person's abdomen, a vital vein or artery, the heart or neck and so on. Stances aren't implemented to the same degree in Dark Souls that they are in actual combat as in real life, thus neither is being flat-footed or falling for a feint. Backstabbing and riposting represent all manner of critical hits-feints and counterattacks, sneak attacks and so on. No, in actual combat with Renaissance, Medieval and Early Modern Period weapons, a LOT of deaths are specifically from what in Dark Souls is backstabs and ripostes. (admittedly a lot more from ripostes and a lot less from backstabs than what goes on in Dark Souls)
    And just on a physics note, a roll-backstab is nowhere near as fast as light. (299, 792, 458 meters each second) Roll backstabs in actual combat normally get the attempter stabbed on the ground; it is physically possible. The extra damage isn't from the amount of physical force; the extra damage is because instead of hacking away at just arm or leg muscles or grazing into his or her chest, the attacker is stabbing them in his or her kidney or ramming his or her blade between his or her ribs under his or her left arm and stab him or her in the heart. Critical hits are not a measure of force; they're a measure of damaging a critically important part of the target's body, an organ or system that the body will quickly die from if it's not functioning properly.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:43 am

    Acarnatia wrote:...And just on a physics note, a roll-backstab is nowhere near as fast as light...

    I know that dude. It was just a figure of speech. I was just saying........well look at the Target Shield for instance. It would not parry a Ultra Greatsword.

    If what you are saying is that you’d like a slower combat system mainly revolving around what is humanly possible, then I say that’s cool. I don’t really like the idea, but its fun to analyze I guess.

    I’m just sayin….1 handing Great Swords….magic….stuff…….

    I don’t want to see a realistic fantasy game is all. I don’t think we will either.

    If they were to do something like that you'd be a much better person to talk to than the average Joe I guess. I know very little about midevil fighting techniques come to think about it.
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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:12 am

    I'm reasonably sure I can help here.

    @Acarnatia please tell me off if I managed to misinterpret you, but I'm going to extrapolate based on previous conversations and attempt to speak for you.

    People hear "backstab" and think "stealth attack" when really it means "crit." A strike to a vital area.


    What he is saying isn't that he wants/expects the combat to be realistic in the most literal sense, he's saying that crits are completely and entirely justified in a combat system (DKS has such a combat system) based on the principles of actual melee combat.

    The implementation is different and simplified, but looking through the simplified overlay they can be seen by those who know how to look.

    Seeing as this is the case, he isn't saying that backstabs are realistic or that he even wants them to be. He's saying that they represent something real (as does most of the in game stuff really) and removing them would undermine putting all that effort into building a combat system with such a solid BASE in reality.


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    Re: What would you like to see from online play in the sequel?

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      Current date/time is Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:42 pm