Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

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    Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:54 am

    The insanely high weight!!!! F***. This is the reason why you see so many Dex builds + let's not even talk about slow swing speed and bs fishing. Thing is I see people doing "Str" builds with MSGS, BKGA, Great Club and even Zweihs. This is a hardcore Str build ladies. 22 f*cking weight. Add to its usefulness that it can't stunlock anymore post patch, so it's hit and dodge, roll R1-dodge fighting style. Don't even think about medium roll, it's useless with this weapon since you can't stunlock. Ok so fast roll, but what abput the poise? I'm hitting at 62, because it's the only way to tank 2 katana hits from a aggressive bastard while your fat axe tries to hit him. Don't forget the slow swing speed. Ever fought vs a halberd guy? Poise lower than that and he makes fun of you.

    And the HP, the precious HP. I'm gonna be realist, it's low. In a world of bs fishers the HP is the most important stat for a Str build, for surviving backstabs....mmmmm ROLL BS. :x FAP Ring doesn't work here, unless you change Wolf, for less poise...The good things:

    -Highest weapon AR in game for a nice counter bs
    -GMW for a stronger than resins buff.
    -Can swap elemental Pike when the axe doesn't work.
    -Crossbow in the offhand is surprisingly good.
    -Dark Bead as a GC/BF substitute.

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=352444671349589614

    PS. Sorry for the swearing but I hope you laughed.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Rifter7 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:18 am

    i think i have a few strength builds floating around that fast roll.. one uses the dragon tooth, another uses a demon machette with msgs on swap and the last used msgs with dark magic and manus..

    they're possible to make at sl 100 and be effective dood.

    those roll r1 strength builds are mega annoying btw.

    why don't you just use this. http://mmdks.com/rhq
    you can falco left hand pawnch them if they bs fish, kick em or just roll into them.. or u know, dark bead them and bs them yourself or just counter bs them if u have the cat in the left hand instead.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:47 am

    I uber hate fast rolling Str builds.
    Str build means a tank to me, so if I see someone fast rolling with a huge Str weapon, I see a huge walking pile of fail in front of me.
    This is greatly enhanced by the fact that 9/10 of these only bs fish for a ohko. Might even add a buff and Hornet Ring to make sure nobody gets up after that. Look Skyward

    When I meet an actual tank with Havel's Shield and some Demon badassery of a weapon resting on their shoulder, I have much more respect, fear and troubles dealing with it. Especially since I main Dex weapons.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Nybbles on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:07 pm

    my strength build is SL99 and i either fast roll as a dragon or mid roll in heavy armour (as heavy as a full set of black iron). the thing that i find with STR builds is that i have to forgo magic, except pyromancy perhaps. what hurts even more than not having magic is having to trade points in vitality for more endurance.

    i agree that removing the ability for strength weapons to stun-lock was not very well thought out. dexterity weapons have way too many advantages over strength weapons to make this a good idea. i'm okay with quality weapons like claymores being nerfed, but great axes and ultra great swords should have retained their ability to stun-lock.

    i don't find the rolling R1 fast enough to be an effective counter to other roll-pokers who can dart in an and out between your attempted hits. spear users are the worst to fight against as a strength build.

    poise doesn't even work in s strength builds favor because of how much the strength weapons weigh. it's much easier for dexterity builds to stack as much poise as they want and retain the fast roll or even cartwheel.

    even though strength builds have completely lost their competitive edge (in my view) i still enjoy playing my strength build almost as much as i enjoy playing my Artorias build (the most fun build ever).
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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:19 pm

    The weapons weigh to much for what they do. Way to much most of the time.

    I can't speak for all str weapons, but the ultra great swords still stunlock just fine (if the opponent doesn't have 76 poise anyways) and the great hammers never could stunlock to begin with.

    I haven't used a great axe post patch so I'm not sure if they still can.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Nybbles on Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:36 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:The weapons weigh to much for what they do. Way to much most of the time.

    I can't speak for all str weapons, but the ultra great swords still stunlock just fine (if the opponent doesn't have 76 poise anyways) and the great hammers never could stunlock to begin with.

    I haven't used a great axe post patch so I'm not sure if they still can.

    i'm having allot of trouble with trying to stun-lock using anything other than one of the clubs or small hammers.

    in my experience…after i've staggered someone with my greataxe, they are able to mid-roll away before the next blow hits, whether i'm one-handing or two-handing the weapon. if they don't don't roll away, i can sometimes hit them a second time if they are over 25% equip load, but it won't stagger them again if they have poise.

    i've had the same issue with the dragon greatsword and the demon machete. i haven't used the zwei or the greatsword yet, but they have similar if not the same swing speed as the other ultra-great swords, so i suspect it would be the same. EDIT…perhaps their greater range might affect this now that i think about it.

    this makes fighting roll-pokers particularly troublesome if you are playing a strength build. since dexterity weapons are so popular (with good reason) this turns out to be roughly 7 out of 10 match ups.

    of course your mileage may vary.
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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:07 pm

    The ultra great swords don't infinite stun, its 2 or 3 hits tops (though thats 1200+ damage) it didn't change.

    Other than that though you're preaching to the choir.

    I've been having success with this http://mmdks.com/rlp

    People see that axe and think 1 thing "bs him" so I deadangle them with the roll r1 or 1hr2. I parry or trade with roll pokers (and anyone else I can manage) unless they have a spear, in which case I turtle with my own spear. Magic is an issue, especially with lag, but I can roll r1 them by keeping really close and using the roll r1 to dodge and attack at the same time.

    Incidentally, the build works with a fast roll as a dragon too, should one choose to go that way. If one did, they would probably find it impossible for any player to survive a crit with that roar buff going.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:46 pm

    Sentiel wrote:I uber hate fast rolling Str builds.
    Str build means a tank to me, so if I see someone fast rolling with a huge Str weapon, I see a huge walking pile of fail in front of me.
    This is greatly enhanced by the fact that 9/10 of these only bs fish for a ohko. Might even add a buff and Hornet Ring to make sure nobody gets up after that. Look Skyward

    When I meet an actual tank with Havel's Shield and some Demon badassery of a weapon resting on their shoulder, I have much more respect, fear and troubles dealing with it. Especially since I main Dex weapons.

    Some Str weapons roll R1s are more useful than their regular attacks, especially the clubs, so fast roll is more beneficial. In my opinion there's no point in having a greatshield because most of the weapons have better movesets while 2 handing. Only weapons I can think off that would be good with a greatshield are the BKGA, maybe the Greatsword for the R2 thrust and the MSGS since it can still stunlock 1 handed. The UGSs and the small hammers could be used by a mid roll build since their R1 attacks are pretty good, and there's more tankiness and stunlock involved.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:49 pm

    @Forum The UGSs can still stunlock yeah. Right now they're the most versatile Str weapons.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:50 pm

    ^ the dga is better in 1 hand. The regular r1s both suck and so does the 2hr2, but the 1hr2 is good and using a shield (not great shield) gives you the option to parry for 1300 damage without the hornets ring.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:53 pm

    Rifter7 wrote:i think i have a few strength builds floating around that fast roll.. one uses the dragon tooth, another uses a demon machette with msgs on swap and the last used msgs with dark magic and manus..

    they're possible to make at sl 100 and be effective dood.

    those roll r1 strength builds are mega annoying btw.

    why don't you just use this. http://mmdks.com/rhq
    you can falco left hand pawnch them if they bs fish, kick em or just roll into them.. or u know, dark bead them and bs them yourself or just counter bs them if u have the cat in the left hand instead.


    Yeah the GC/LC are more viable, I have a Str/Int LC build with 1800 HP at SL 100, CMW and Pursuers. I call these easy mode Str weapons because the lower weight. I can't understand why a GC has more AR than a DGH, for 10 less weight that's OP.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:57 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:^ the dga is better in 1 hand. The regular r1s both suck and so does the 2hr2, but the 1hr2 is good and using a shield (not great shield) gives you the option to parry for 1300 damage without the hornets ring.

    The 1HR1 are faster than the 2HR1 right???


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:05 pm

    No idea. I just don't really use them much. Its pretty close though. I stick to unlocked 1hr2s and roll r1s. occasional jump attack (same as large clubs)


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:31 pm

    Ultra greatswords stunlock, wth are you talking man? Also there are others weapons for STR, not just "ultra" weapons, see: Mace, Warpick, Pickaxe, Battle Axe, Golem Axe (though this is a bit heavy), Man Serpent Greatsword (no stunlock on this, but super high damage). All previous weapons are also BUFFABLE, even pine resins will work a good additional damage.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by RANT on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:37 pm

    UGS do not stunlock, only the zwei and the gs tunlock but those are more wuality build than str. the only weapons i know that stunlock are the reinforced/smith/giant smith clubs. i havent tessted all the axes but from what ive seen they do not stunlock, i know for sure the DGM doent stunlock unless youre opponent is too slow to rol out after the first hit.(i dont mean swap out either)


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Nybbles on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:38 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:UGS do not stunlock, only the zwei and the gs tunlock but those are more wuality build than str. the only weapons i know that stunlock are the reinforced/smith/giant smith clubs. i havent tessted all the axes but from what ive seen they do not stunlock, i know for sure the DGM doent stunlock unless youre opponent is too slow to rol out after the first hit.(i dont mean swap out either)

    i hear that.
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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:49 pm

    RantFromRant wrote:UGS do not stunlock, only the zwei and the gs tunlock but those are more wuality build than str. the only weapons i know that stunlock are the reinforced/smith/giant smith clubs. i havent tessted all the axes but from what ive seen they do not stunlock, i know for sure the DGM doent stunlock unless youre opponent is too slow to rol out after the first hit.(i dont mean swap out either)

    I don't know what to say... but you're wrong. Axes 2-handed stunlock (I have tested this with Battle Axe and Golem Axe), I don't know about DGM, but Zweihander, Black Knight Greatsword, Greatsword (Tarkus), and I think Dragon Greatsword too. Mace, Warpick, Pickaxe, Reinforced Club, Giant Smith Hammer, all stunlock, I'm 100% sure.

    I don't know about Greataxes though, they stunlocked before the Greatsword nerf patch, but I haven't tested them since.

    I'm 99% sure Greathammers don't stunlock, I'm ashamed I can't remember, considering I played with my Leeroy Build for an extremely long time.

    Fist weapons "can" stunlock but it's extremely hard because of the low range, and low poise damage, not worth it IMO.

    Spears can stunlock, but I think the only spear that actually scales well with STR is the Pike, and I haven't tested it.

    Halberd scales almost equally with STR and DEX, so having minimum DEX while having high STR is viable, and they stunlock.

    And that's it. As you see, almost all weapons can stunlock. Stunlock means to me that if you get 1 hit, you are guaranteed you get a second hit at least. In the past (before the nerf), Greatswords could make stunlocks of 3 hits (or more I believe) and that was ridiculous considering it's weight and speed.

    On top of this, UltraGreatswords are probably one of the easiest weapons to dead angle with.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by RANT on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:53 pm

    where did al the wuality weapon come from? we were talking about STR weapon sso i dont see your point there chiz. like i said, unless your opponent is too slow only the weapons i mentioned stunlock, i havent tested al of them after the patch and the ones im sure of are the ones i listed.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:03 pm

    Hammers, Axes, and Ultra Greatswords are not quality weapons. They scale with STR and DEX equally. The Zwei and Greatsword are exactly the same, and while they scale well with both stats they are usable by STR builds if you have the minimum DEX. Just because they scale well with both stats doesn't mean you can't use them with only one of them high. 40 STR and 13 DEX Zwei does 528 damage, which is fine considering it can stunlock. Same thing applies for halberds though halbers are faster, Zwei and GS can dead angle very easily, have more "area" range, and because of that it's easier to hit.

    And you're incorrect, all weapons I mentioned stunlock, given you're at the right distance, keep in mind distance plays a vital role in whether or not you're able to stunlock. Even if you hit your enemy from afar with your Zwei, he will be able to dodge, only from a certain distance and closer you are able to stunlock.


    Last edited by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:07 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:04 pm

    I can confirm, if anyone gives a damn, that Reinforced Club and probably other weapons in it's category can infinite stunlock if your opponent has low Poise.

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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by ChizFreak on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:06 pm

    Sentiel wrote:I can confirm, if anyone gives a damn, that Reinforced Club and probably other weapons in it's category can infinite stunlock if your opponent has low Poise.

    All hammers, Battle Axe, Golem Axe, and Gargoyle Axe/Tail can stunlock. I don't know about "infinite" stunlock but you can get 2 hits at least. I don't know about Greathammers or Greataxes, though Greataxes could stunlock in the past before the Greatsword nerf.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:18 pm

    I must point out AR=/= damage. 538 AR on a weapon that slow is absolute dog poop. It evens out to ~300 damage. You're actually probably better off with the elemental version at that point.

    As for stunlocking, I rarely do it with anything as I fear the toggle parry, so I'll differ to rant.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by RANT on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:26 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:Hammers, Axes, and Ultra Greatswords are not quality weapons. They scale with STR and DEX equally. The Zwei and Greatsword are exactly the same, and while they scale well with both stats they are usable by STR builds if you have the minimum DEX. Just because they scale well with both stats doesn't mean you can't use them with only one of them high. 40 STR and 13 DEX Zwei does 528 damage, which is fine considering it can stunlock. Same thing applies for halberds though halbers are faster, Zwei and GS can dead angle very easily, have more "area" range, and because of that it's easier to hit.

    And you're incorrect, all weapons I mentioned stunlock, given you're at the right distance, keep in mind distance plays a vital role in whether or not you're able to stunlock. Even if you hit your enemy from afar with your Zwei, he will be able to dodge, only from a certain distance and closer you are able to stunlock.

    i meant the halberds, of course greataxes are str weapons but from what you are saying then i guess you consider the garg tail axe, rapier and washing pole are str weapons, you could even say the falchion can be a tr weapon too since it scalles with str too. i know distance has a big role with weapons that dont have infinite stunlock like the DGM, the mot you can get out of it is two hits if your opponent i right next to you but then they can rol out but do you realy think peoplle go up to str weapons and start swinging? people rarely do unless you catch them in a roll. with the zwei or gs you can get two hits in since theyre in a stunlock even if you hit them with the tip, the dgm would never do that. and like ive said before, unless your opponent is retarted and does not try to dodge after getting hit with a big weapon then he will get stunlocked to death.


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by WyrmHero on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:31 pm

    The greataxes used to have a very good stunlock but after the patch they're pretty much useless. Either way I'm not giving up on my DGA since it's my favorite weapon!!!!


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    Re: Why are Str builds so goddamn hard to make

    Post by Forum Pirate on Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:43 pm

    So they removed arguably the best feature of an already under powered weapon class? Great balancing that is. I rarely want from to do things differently, but they could stand to take some balance lessons.


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