possible side effect of ganking lowbies..

i'm sure most of us never bother the little nubs..

but they do get attacked, and most of the time the attacker is in some decked out gear these players wouldn't know even existed in the game, let alone know how to reach at their level.

i'm not gonna argue about why it happens or whatever reason there is for it- or how they can avoid it and it's their fault (which it really isn't)..

i'm just saying it happens. now.. lets say that little nub isn't a nub anymore and has been attacked by these gankers numerous times. they're now geared up and want revenge.
they've got some buddies with them now and they're ganking invaders.. why? not because they're bad, which they very well might be.. but because they really hate the invaders they've encountered on their trip to whatever ludicrous soul level they now are.

what if we even flipped the coin here.. lets say a new invader keeps running into these high level gankers when they try to pvp... and they get fed up. they transfer their stuff to a lower level character because they feel that there's no ganks there, just other pvpers with similar gear to theirs and questers.. and they start wreaking havoc in that sl range.

what do you guys think? probable? if not, share your thoughts.

The Circle of Frustration.

I don't think it happens that way. In fact, I'd bet the people doing low-level griefing are the same, or similar, people doing the ganking! Full disclosure: I have immense faith in humanity! I believe that the majority of people, if they get shat on, will not turn around and do it to some other innocent victim. I think they'll move on (or quit, sadly).

I do agree that low-level griefing breeds negativity and hate towards invaders, though. Rather than a balancing game element, people learn to see them as overpowered jerks, when that's not at all what being a Red is about.

I think the meat of the issue, really, is that low level newbies don't know that those invincible invaders who are killing them are the same level as them. They see an invader they can't even scratch with their own weapon, and this invader OHKs them. They assume "high level". Then they associate invader with "high level, OP, *******". If, instead, they knew that the invader is their own level, but just has OP gear, then maybe, rather than develop those prejudices, they'd strive to become as powerful as the invader.

I think something as simple as the newb being aware that the invader is their own level would solve a lot of the problem, without even changing any of the game mechanics.

I think griefers force new-players to get OP phantoms, they get used to having those phantoms around and eventually it becomes a bad habit. It creates laziness and high level players who never properly learned to play... I tend to see a lot of the latter in the forest.

It's certainly possible that some gankers do it to grief invaders, but I think that most are either too lazy or suck too much to farm souls by themselves.

Edit: I'm also not saying that gankers only exist because of greifers, so don't get the wrong idea

I'm pretty certain a majority of the ganking was created by the low-level 'cool guy' invaders as I call them and... the *%$#in' forest. I think it's hilarious how the forest hunters constantly whine about ganking. I've seen one -- ONE forest hunter wait for me to kill off an npc before engaging me (too bad, I had wotg ready to go and was hoping he'd move in LOL). Most use the NPCs for healing and as team mates, gang up w/other human invaders and even wait & hide until help arrives. The people who invade as red phantoms in the forest are all that AND lazy & pathetic for trying to pick low-hanging fruit; obviously hoping one or more invaders are already there.

I know there are people who are going to claim they only fight honorably when they invade, that's fine. Do you think the host always has a pvp setup like you do? You're tactics my be fair, but I don't think the concept itself is to begin with. Why not just lay a red sign? Are you invading for your covenant benefits? OK, but how does that help the guy you invaded? He doesn't care about your covenant, why shouldn't he protect he humanity & souls anyway he can? Not to mention the frustration and time lost. Even if he wins he may have to use spells he wanted to save. Ganking seems like a natural reaction to getting repeatedly invaded.

I don't blame people for ganging up on the forest hunters, because that's what the forest hunters do. I think invading (other than using the blue eye or red soap stone) is rude, anyway. I think they feel you get what you get when you invade their world. Which is true, if you didn't invade you wouldn't get ganked. Now the idiots who pick up a red sign and act like they're dueling only to have their loser friend run up and BS are something else (yep, that happened to me in the kiln).

Personally, I blame the forest hunters and the concept of the forest covenant in the first place for creating most of the ganking. Resentment from hosts in the forest seems pretty foreseeable and understandable to me. It seems like the forest covenant and forest in general was designed for non-1v1 multiplayer. As I recall, the complaint in Demon's Souls was jumpers. Ganking, as far as I can tell is fairly unique to Dark Souls.

Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:I blame the forest hunters

Seriously? Maybe you should read the first post of this thread. That was 22 days after the games release. At first people would just farm the npc's, until... people realized that it was a good spot to get invaded. Then they switched over to farming Forest hunters, and the rest is history.

It's true that forest hunters will use cheap tactics, but most only started doing it as a response to the ganking. Do you know what would happen when I'd bow to a host 99% of the time? I'd get backstabbed by their friend wearing a Ring of fog and hornet ring. How do I know that you're not alone because your phantom just died? I don't, so if I see anyone in the forest then I will treat them as gankers.

The area is completely avoidable, same goes for Dark Anor Lando. The only reason that people stay there is to farm, or for the free for all PVP, so don't blame the forest hunters. You have no way of knowing which side started it. I don't think anyone knows actually.

However, I am not saying that all FH's were once honorable. Every group has it's bad eggs. Every now and then I'll run into a ganker with Shiva in their world, they get rewarded as traitors deserve.

i think this guy's a little bit newer.. and doesn't quite understand how the game works just yet.

also i like how in that link you shared theres people that are actually still a little scared of darkmoon's. lol, so old..

i remember panicking thinking that some nonexistant hidden darkmoon was running around my world when i was a lowbie darkwraith.

Sloth9230 wrote:

Hugh_G_Johnson wrote:I blame the forest hunters

...people realized that it was a good spot to get invaded. Then they switched over to farming Forest hunters, and the rest is history...

Well; I think they realized it was a good spot to get invaded because it happened over and over, often more than one at a time. I don't think there's anyone left who doesn't think of the forest as a get-him-before-he-gets-me wild west. All you have to say is: "it's the forest" and no further explanation is needed. As far as bowing, I personally save it for co-op and red soap duels, anyway (watch out for the mages who cast crystal soul mass or pursuers while you bow and run at you, though). I'm not saying forest hunters should treat their invasion as a duel. I'm saying what your saying (I think); the only honor in the forest is survival. As in, you should feel honored if you survive. 8)

I just feel that the problem begins with the hunters. Don't get me wrong; I invade with the blue eye orb and get enraged by gankers, but I understand where they're coming from. I just don't feel sorry for people invading random people's games as a dark spirit.

I mostly blame the design of the game for the fact that there's a covenant that constantly invades an already well-guarded area. But, if the hosts don't have to be in the forest (and you at least have to get to sif unlike dark anor which doesn't even have to exist), the hunters don't have to be there either and they sure don't have to join the covenant or wear the ring. And as I said in my first post if you don't invade, you won't get ganked. So yes, I blame the forest hunters, also.

I'm pretty sure most people join the covenant because it's guaranteed PVP, there are also those who joined so they could kill shiva and his ninja buddy for their thingsor by from them . There were probably also those that joined specifically because they could team up on people, just as there are some darkmoons that join only because they invade down instead of up.

PVP has always been a part of the game; perhaps not at the level that this community has taken it, but it's been there since Demon's Souls. Anyone who wishes to fight Sif can either take the hydra route, go hollow, or run through the area(it isn't hard to run straight to Alvina, keep running and eventually the NPC's stop following).

I believe that the developers created the forest as a gift to the PVP'ers. Like everything else, people have taken what's been given to them and exploited it.